Probably a bit late to the thread, but I have read the entire grand jury transcript with the jaundiced eye of a long-time trial lawyer. My observations:
Numerous confirmed on-site witnesses (I think 6-7 of which are black)and the cop all tell the same story after pretty serious cross examination (including by the grand jurors, which tells me they took their job seriously — and they asked good questions).
Basically: cop stopped Brown. Brown got pissed and charged cop. Altercation occurred at the door of the cop car, with Brown reaching into the car for the gun. Cop shot four times (cop said 3, but admitted he could count the bullets in his gun and clearly shot 4). First one hit the inside door of the cop car. Next three hit Brown. The whole “hands up” stuff is complete bullshit. Everyone actually there said it was a struggle at the car.
Forensic evidence coincides with witnesses statements. In particular, it is not consistent with “hands up.” In fact, one bullet went through a hand into the body, which is not possible with hands up, but perfectly possible when someone is grabbing the gun. Gun shot residue consistent with relatively close shooting, but not particularly compelling to me.
Gun shot into door was point blank and down, also consistent with a struggle at the door of the cop car.
So, in short, everything tells us Brown charged the cop and got himself killed.
I will say, as a take-away for cops reading the witness statements, is that the cop was a complete asshole to Brown and almost seemed to be trying to piss Brown off.
Someone telling the cop: “Do your job, but don’t be a dick” would probably have defused the situation before it started, if the cop took it to heart. Maybe not, in that Brown had a long history of bad behavior, but, as a general rule, that’s the take-away. The cop probably would have spared himself a lot of grief (and legal trouble, even though he’s been cleared) simply by not being a dick.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I will say, as a take-away for cops reading the witness statements, is that the cop was a complete asshole to Brown and almost seemed to be trying to piss Brown off.
Someone telling the cop: “Do your job, but don’t be a dick” would probably have defused the situation before it started, if the cop took it to heart. Maybe not, in that Brown had a long history of bad behavior, but, as a general rule, that’s the take-away. The cop probably would have spared himself a lot of grief (and legal trouble, even though he’s been cleared) simply by not being a dick.
[/quote]
I disagree. Because the altercation with the police officer was not an isolated incident in that Big Mile had just committed a criminal offence and was clearly intent on not being taken into custody. It wouldn’t have mattered what the cop had said. Brown was not in the mood to be taken into custody. Besides, the cop had every reason to “be a dick” to some thug creep wandering in the middle of the street blocking traffic. All the evidence points to Brown being in a hyper-aggressive, manic state of mind; in short, a dangerous and violent thug.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I will say, as a take-away for cops reading the witness statements, is that the cop was a complete asshole to Brown and almost seemed to be trying to piss Brown off.
Someone telling the cop: “Do your job, but don’t be a dick” would probably have defused the situation before it started, if the cop took it to heart. Maybe not, in that Brown had a long history of bad behavior, but, as a general rule, that’s the take-away. The cop probably would have spared himself a lot of grief (and legal trouble, even though he’s been cleared) simply by not being a dick.
[/quote]
I disagree. Because the altercation with the police officer was not an isolated incident in that Big Mile had just committed a criminal offence and was clearly intent on not being taken into custody. It wouldn’t have mattered what the cop had said. Brown was not in the mood to be taken into custody. Besides, the cop had every reason to “be a dick” to some thug creep wandering in the middle of the street blocking traffic. All the evidence points to Brown being in a hyper-aggressive, manic state of mind; in short, a dangerous and violent thug.[/quote]
I’m with SM. I agree with you JB in principal, but why was Wilson a “dick”? What specifically did he do, tell him to get out of the road? I hope that him being a dick isn’t based on that liar Dorian Johnson’s testimony.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, the cop had every reason to “be a dick” to some thug creep wandering in the middle of the street blocking traffic.[/quote]
No.
The cop had every reason and authority to do his duty. Being a dick isn’t a police officers duty that I’m aware of.
^I’m not saying what happened wasn’t justified. It was. All I’m saying is that a Police Officer doesn’t get to be a douche bag just because he thinks the guy looks like a “thug creep.” Officers are supposed to be impartial.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, the cop had every reason to “be a dick” to some thug creep wandering in the middle of the street blocking traffic.[/quote]
No.
The cop had every reason and authority to do his duty. Being a dick isn’t a police officers duty that I’m aware of.[/quote]
Exactly right, and cops can be appallingly unprofessional, low-class scumbags – e.g., liberally using words like “retard” (which I have heard more times than I can count) and bathing in a fantasized sense of moral, rather than legal and situational, superiority. Given the video of Wilson threatening the cellphone guy, it isn’t much of a stretch to believe that he is in fact one of these types, or, at the least, that he has one of these types in him.
Which – and I think JB would say the same – doesn’t change anything about the Right being right about this whole thing, and the Left being not only wrong but actually and measurably malevolent.
Still, though, the point can legitimately be made that asshole cops are bad for us as a society, given that there is some indication that Wilson was one.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, the cop had every reason to “be a dick” to some thug creep wandering in the middle of the street blocking traffic.[/quote]
No.
The cop had every reason and authority to do his duty. Being a dick isn’t a police officers duty that I’m aware of.[/quote]
Being a “dick” was JB’s phrase. I’m assuming he means something like, “what the fuck are doing in the middle of the road idiot?” Because that’s the kind of response I would expect from a cop if I was walking in the middle of the street blocking traffic. Especially if I had the appearance of a thug; pants falling down, shoelaces missing etc.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Besides, the cop had every reason to “be a dick” to some thug creep wandering in the middle of the street blocking traffic.[/quote]
No.
The cop had every reason and authority to do his duty. Being a dick isn’t a police officers duty that I’m aware of.[/quote]
Being a “dick” was JB’s phrase. I’m assuming he means something like, “what the fuck are doing in the middle of the road idiot?” Because that’s the kind of response I would expect from a cop if I was walking in the middle of the street blocking traffic. Especially if I had the appearance of a thug; pants falling down, shoelaces missing etc.
[/quote]
Do you think that’s appropriate for a public servant?
In reality I would also expect that type of speech as well, which is part of the problem.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Even thug creeps are innocent until proven guilty. [/quote]
Of course. I’m not suggesting cops are above the law. However, an accusation was raised that Wilson was acting like a dick; JB actually suggested the whole situation could have been avoided if the cop had not been a dick. My points are:
Firstly, I haven’t seen any evidence that Wilson was being a dick or that he did anything inappropriate at any time.
Given 1, I interpreted being a “dick” as being verbally hostile; something that I see as understandable in light of the circumstances - thugs wandering down the Middle of the street blocking traffic.
And most importantly, I disagree entirely that Wilson’s behaviour in any way precipitated or escalated the situation given that the Gentle Giant:
a). was a scumbag thug
b). had just committed a robbery and assault
c). was obviously not willing to be taken into custody; indeed, he actually tried to wrestle Wilson’s gun off him and he(Brown) was in a “berserk” state of mind. Only someone who is berserk charges unarmed at a cop pointing a gun at him.
The evidence indicates that Brown was in a “berserk” state of mind. I’ve seen people in this state and I know what it’s like to be attacked by a berserker.
Just a thought: People are mistaken when they start asking if brown deserved to die. That isn’t the question. Him dying wasn’t a punishment. The question is, did the cop have the right to defend himself with deadly force? He wasn’t shot because he was doing wrong, he was shot because he was a threat to the life of another.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Just a thought: People are mistaken when they start asking if brown deserved to die. That isn’t the question. Him dying wasn’t a punishment. The question is, did the cop have the right to defend himself with deadly force? He wasn’t shot because he was doing wrong, he was shot because he was a threat to the life of another. [/quote]
Do you think that’s appropriate for a public servant?
[/quote]
Ideally no. But in this case I don’t believe Wilson’s behaviour would’ve made any difference. If he said, “I’m terribly sorry sir, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to place you in custody” - I’m sure Brown would’ve responded in a similar manner. The problem here is not cop’s roadside manner. It’s a case of a criminal who didn’t want to get arrested and who was in a crazy, violent mood.
[quote]
In reality I would also expect that type of speech as well, which is part of the problem. [/quote]
The only problem here is the bullshit story the media invented and the Justice Department’s egregiously unethical behaviour and their attempts to indict an innocent cop with absolutely no evidence that he did anything wrong whatsoever. Show me a legitimate real case of a cop behaving badly and I’ll agree with you. But the Brown shooting is fiction. The cop did nothing wrong; he risked his life doing his duty and now his life has been ruined. He’s left the force and has no income. He’ll probably have to take steps to hide his identity and start a new life from scratch. It’s an absolute disgrace what they did to him.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Even thug creeps are innocent until proven guilty. [/quote]
Of course. I’m not suggesting cops are above the law. However, an accusation was raised that Wilson was acting like a dick; JB actually suggested the whole situation could have been avoided if the cop had not been a dick. My points are:
Firstly, I haven’t seen any evidence that Wilson was being a dick or that he did anything inappropriate at any time.
Given 1, I interpreted being a “dick” as being verbally hostile; something that I see as understandable in light of the circumstances - thugs wandering down the Middle of the street blocking traffic.
And most importantly, I disagree entirely that Wilson’s behaviour in any way precipitated or escalated the situation given that the Gentle Giant:
a). was a scumbag thug
b). had just committed a robbery and assault
c). was obviously not willing to be taken into custody; indeed, he actually tried to wrestle Wilson’s gun off him and he(Brown) was in a “berserk” state of mind. Only someone who is berserk charges unarmed at a cop pointing a gun at him.
The evidence indicates that Brown was in a “berserk” state of mind. I’ve seen people in this state and I know what it’s like to be attacked by a berserker.[/quote]
You very well may be right that Brown was in a “beserk” state of mind, and that a more polite approach would not have worked.
But go read the testimony yourself; it’s not like I didn’t link to it.
The cop (probably because he knew Brown to be a scumbag – he was a known gang member) was a complete dick.
Now, does that justify Brown’s charging the cop and trying to get the pistol? No, not in the least. The cop was fully justified in shooting Brown.
Firstly, I haven’t seen any evidence that Wilson was being a dick or that he did anything inappropriate at any time.
Given 1, I interpreted being a “dick” as being verbally hostile; something that I see as understandable in light of the circumstances - thugs wandering down the Middle of the street blocking traffic.
[b]3. And most importantly, I disagree entirely that Wilson’s behaviour in any way precipitated or escalated the situation given that the Gentle Giant:
a). was a scumbag thug
b). had just committed a robbery and assault [/b]
c). was obviously not willing to be taken into custody; indeed, he actually tried to wrestle Wilson’s gun off him and he(Brown) was in a “berserk” state of mind. Only someone who is berserk charges unarmed at a cop pointing a gun at him.
The evidence indicates that Brown was in a “berserk” state of mind. I’ve seen people in this state and I know what it’s like to be attacked by a berserker.[/quote]
I put in bold the portions I disagree with. Here is why:
1.) I don’t agree that a police office gets to be a dick just because someone is breaking a minor law (in this case Jay Walking).
2.) You’re telling me that there is no way you can possibly see how the officers word choice/actions can exacerbate a situation?
3.) Again, a cop doesn’t get to be a dick just because he
a.) Perceives a citizen as a scum bag thug.
b.) Wilson did not know at the time of the initial contact that Brown was a suspect in a robbery.
The way Brown went after that store clerk so casually shows me he has most likely done that of similar things before. No one can exhibit that kind of behavior so comfortably without repeated incidents like that. Add to that the poor judgment and aggression an 18 yr old male can possess, it’s an effective recipe for trouble.
If Wilson was being a dick, he is still allowed to defend himself in the event of an attack by someone who is 6’5 290 lbs. Someone that large and pissed off coming at you is lethal threat IMO.