Revisiting the Alleged Leak

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

BostonBarrister wrote:
The indictment is out - Libby, on two counts of making false statements, two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/28/D8DH5FOG0.html

No one else, for anything. And no info on whether the grand jury has been extended either.

And nothing on any of the alleged crimes for which the special prosecutor was created. Nary a peep.

endgamer711 wrote:

After all that perjury, what did you expect? A successful investigation?

Ahem. “All that perjury” apparently only applies to allegations over 2 statements by Scooter Libby. One would think that over the course of the two-year investigation the prosecutor may have been able to talk to a few other people – including the ones to whom whatever information he was investigating was actually leaked. So yeah, I would think he could have quite a “successful” investigation, if there was anything to find (by “successful” I assume you mean he uncovered the conspiracy by the cabal in the Administration to let loose with national-security secrets in order to discredit truth-teller and all around swell guy Joe Wilson).[/quote]

Just curious if you felt this same way when Ken Starr was the special prosecutor? All we got about the original investigation was, well, nothing. But we did find out Clinton lied about getting a blowjob from an intern.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

As to assuring themselves of the facts, I surely hope they do – and hopefully let go of those strong feelings after a thoughtful analysis thereof…[/quote]

The facts show we were lied to about Iraq and WMDs, and Iraq and al Quaeda, to such an extent it was necessary for the liars to reach down and snuff out any slight whiff of the truth (i.e. the otherwise unremarkable Mr. Wilson), lest the entire corrupt enterprise (delicious phrase) collapse.

The feelings I have about that won’t be laid to rest until the liars are punished. A mere interlude of analysis - “Oh shucks, duped again” - is not going to hack it.

The joke is, I was in favor of the war, barely, because I saw Hussein was indeed a threat to our way of life, in very truth. He was bad news for the petroleum business, and like it or not oil is the foundation of our modern way of life.

But we the people can’t stand to see ourselves painted as the strung out junkies we are, so our leaders tell us lies.

Boston,

Why are you working so hard to put a spin on this.

Nobody is going to accept any of your statements of “nothing to see here”. You may as well save your breath and let people lose interest naturally.

Otherwise, it really seems as if “you doth protest too much”.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
The substantial bulk of the work of the investigation is concluded.[/quote]

I think the current indictments are but the tip of the iceberg with respect to the investigation already done. The bulk of the work of investigation is done, and all that remains is to fill in a few chinks on whatever it is we haven’t seen yet.

We do know there is something further coming we haven’t seen yet. And it is likely not just a report, also according to Fitz.

I’m sure I’ll get blasted for this, but the media is reporting that an indictment for Rove was pending, but that some 11th hour discussions have averted that for the time being.

Wow.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Try reading all of my posts - hen get back to me. Hel;l just read everything I have written in the last 4 or 5 days, and get an idea of what I am trying to say. Your ignorance of what I am doing is not flattering on you. As for the name calling - I invite you to read vroom’s posts down here. Read some of Elk’s posts. It’s called tit-for-tat. And I am pretty good at what I do

Once again - read what I have written. I am not going to apologize for being a proud conservative. It is the weak minded that take you route and are against everything. It takes a shitload more guts to stand for something than it does to quote a fucking history teacher, and mistake laziness for being independent.

You prove with each successive paragraph that you haven’t read very many of my posts at all. I am a conservative. I will do and say what I think is needed to defend and advance conservatism. I don’t need some punk kid that is still quoting a history teacher to lecture me about thinking.

I encourage you to get off your ass and form an opinion based on something other than what your history teacher told you. I have little patience for those that don;t have the balls to stand for something other than to be against everything.
[/quote]

I congratulate you for being able to go tit for tat on an internet forum, tough guy, and really, your not that good at it. Your a conservative, and will do what it takes to advance the conservative cause, whether it be morally right or wrong, huh??

Right, and your not a sheep. As for standing for something, well, I guess since im not a left wing “thinktard” as you put it or a conservative, I guess i stand for common sense, which allows me to see through lie after lie after lie told by certain people in our government. So you could say I am for the truth and against the sickening lies…and as for quoting a history teacher, well, you said nothing to disprove that statement of his and it molded perfectly for this forum, i thought…

[quote]rainjack wrote:
How has this admin been bad for the country? I never said I was more patriotic. Show me where I said that. It has nothing to so with pariotism. That is an over used word that has had its meaning bastardized to mean you should protest the war, or anything else that Bush stands for. [/quote]

You really cant be asking how this administration has been bad for this country? Would you like me to start with january 2000 and move forward? holy shit.

[quote]mmg_4 wrote:

I congratulate you for being able to go tit for tat on an internet forum, tough guy, and really, your not that good at it. Your a conservative, and will do what it takes to advance the conservative cause, whether it be morally right or wrong, huh?? [/quote]

Well - I’m a shitload better than you are at it. But I dont think of myself as a tough guy. I am honest, and I would tell you what I think whether you are sitting at home typing on mommy’s computer, or standing right in front of me. I am not ashamed of what I believe in, and I’m damn sure not affraid to stand by it.

I have never supported anything that is morally wrong. And you can’t find anywhere on this site, or any other that that would support you saying otherwise. But nice try at straw manning when you have nothing left in your pitiful little sack of arguments.

You have no idea what a thinktard is, do you? In fact you are just like all of the other idiotic tumbleweeds that blow through here - real tough talk but never staying around long enough to actually take a stand on anything other than to make a futile attempt at attacking me.

You are a liar and a coward - and if my bat senses are correct, a punk assed kid that has never held a job, or spent more than a week from home, and that being a summer camp with some Indian sounding name where you made boondoggle keychains, and sang kumbaya at at bond-fire.

[quote] So you could say I am for the truth and against the sickening lies…and as for quoting a history teacher, well, you said nothing to disprove that statement of his and it molded perfectly for this forum, i thought…
[/quote]

You stand FOR nothing. You are a punk ass who thinks it is cool to kiss your teacher’s ass by trying to live your life like him.

You are so quick to label me as a sheep, yet you see no problem following your teacher around like a lost puppy-dog. Have you ever had an original thought? He may be a very smart guy - but you aren’t thinking for yourself. You are kissing his ass.

Come back and try again when you start having thoughts that don’t involve a fucking highschool teacher.

[quote]mmg_4 wrote:
You really cant be asking how this administration has been bad for this country? [/quote]

Yes - I am.

[quote]Would you like me to start with january 2000 and move forward? holy shit.
[/quote]

Yes - I would.

Just because you say it is so doesn’t mean I should believe it, right? That would make me a sheep, right?

And if you can’t back up your bullshit with some proof - I would have to say that would make YOU the sheep. Just following what someone else says because you think it supports your hatred of Bush.But you wouldn;t do that, would you. You have reems of evidence that proves Bush has been bad for this country going all the way back to “January 2000” - don’t you?

Bush was no where near the beltway in January 2000 much less ruining the country you ignorant fuck.

[quote]

BostonBarrister wrote:
The indictment is out - Libby, on two counts of making false statements, two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/28/D8DH5FOG0.html

No one else, for anything. And no info on whether the grand jury has been extended either.

And nothing on any of the alleged crimes for which the special prosecutor was created. Nary a peep.

endgamer711 wrote:

After all that perjury, what did you expect? A successful investigation?

BostonBarrister wrote:

Ahem. “All that perjury” apparently only applies to allegations over 2 statements by Scooter Libby. One would think that over the course of the two-year investigation the prosecutor may have been able to talk to a few other people – including the ones to whom whatever information he was investigating was actually leaked. So yeah, I would think he could have quite a “successful” investigation, if there was anything to find (by “successful” I assume you mean he uncovered the conspiracy by the cabal in the Administration to let loose with national-security secrets in order to discredit truth-teller and all around swell guy Joe Wilson).

chadman wrote:

Just curious if you felt this same way when Ken Starr was the special prosecutor? All we got about the original investigation was, well, nothing. But we did find out Clinton lied about getting a blowjob from an intern.[/quote]

That’s quite the selective memory loss you’ve got going on there Chadman.

Starr got indictments on quite a few crimes – do the names Jim Guy Tucker or Webster Hubbell ring any bells?

Here’s an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry on Whitewater – some non-Lewinsky items:

EXCERPT:

Relating to the Whitewater failure and the Clintons’ legal involvement with Castle Grande, they were repeatedly questioned by reporters about the fiasco following Bill Clinton’s bid for the presidency. Early in Clinton’s presidency, one of his attorneys Vince Foster committed suicide (July 23, 1993). Documents regarding Clinton’s personal information were then removed from Foster’s office, reigniting an investigation.

At Clinton’s request, a special prosecutor was appointed in 1994 by the Department of Justice to investigate the legality of Whitewater transactions. Two further accusations then surfaced: that Clinton had exerted pressure on a Little Rock, Arkansas businessman to make a loan that would benefit him and the owners of Madison Guaranty, and that an Arkansas bank had concealed transactions involving Clinton’s gubernatorial campaign in 1990.

The Clintons were cleared of any wrongdoing in two reports subsequently prepared by the San Francisco law firm of Pillsbury Madison and Sutro for the Resolution Trust Corporation, which was overseeing the bankruptcy of Madison Guaranty.

When the Whitewater scandal first surfaced, Attorney General Janet Reno appointed a special prosecutor to investigate the matter. The prosecutor, Robert Fiske (a Republican and former United States Attorney) was subsequently replaced by independent counsel Kenneth Starr when the investigation was transferred to the jurisidiction of the Office of the Independent Counsel. Independent counsels are appointed by a panel of federal judges, to avoid a potential conflict of interest by the Attorney General (a Presidential political appointee).

On January 26, 1996 Hillary Clinton testified before a grand jury concerning her investments in Whitewater.

Over the course of the investigation, fifteen individuals – including Clinton friends James McDougal and Susan McDougal, White House counsel Webster Hubbel and Arkansas Governor Jim Guy Tucker – were convicted of federal charges. Four of these were pardoned by the President in the last days of his second term.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
The substantial bulk of the work of the investigation is concluded.

endgamer711 wrote:

I think the current indictments are but the tip of the iceberg with respect to the investigation already done. The bulk of the work of investigation is done, and all that remains is to fill in a few chinks on whatever it is we haven’t seen yet.

We do know there is something further coming we haven’t seen yet. And it is likely not just a report, also according to Fitz.[/quote]

We’ll see endgamer. Right now all we’re going on is speculation. At any rate, I’ll handicap the odds to this extent: it’s more likely that you’ll see a subsequent indictment (some possibility) than that you’ll get information alleging some conspiracy to lie to the American people on the run up to Iraq (0% possible).

[quote]vroom wrote:
Boston,

Why are you working so hard to put a spin on this.

Nobody is going to accept any of your statements of “nothing to see here”. You may as well save your breath and let people lose interest naturally.

Otherwise, it really seems as if “you doth protest too much”.[/quote]

My protests are all about people trying to make what they wanted to happen into what did happen.

I think you can tell a lot about the overall impact of what actually happened from looking at who is complaining about the independent counsel. I know which side is doing the hand-wringing about the fact Fitzgerald doesn’t plan to release a report, and said he wasn’t looking into their conspiracy fantasies.

Nice round up from Pejman Yousefzadeh, a lawyer/blogger:

http://www.redstate.org/story/2005/10/29/0256/9412

Let’s run through the bullet points:

  • There are a whole host of links collected in this post ( Instapundit ) that you really ought to read.

  • Evidently, there is no satisfying some people ( The Volokh Conspiracy - - ). Karl Rove should get in trouble for telling the truth? That’s a new one.

  • I thought that Fitzgerald’s television appearance was very impressive. He was restrained but principled, he knew the case inside and out and he was clearly at the top of his game in answering the reporters’ questions (in addition to showing a great deal of patience with stupid questions like the very last one asked). Here is the link to the press conference: Fitzgerald News Conference - The New York Times . For all those who want to take this investigation and indictment and turn it into a set of political talking points regarding the validity of the war in Iraq, Patrick Fitzgerald has a message for you:

[i]QUESTION: A lot of Americans, people who are opposed to the war, critics of the administration, have looked to your investigation with hope in some ways and might see this indictment as a vindication of their argument that the administration took the country to war on false premises.

Does this indictment do that?

FITZGERALD: This indictment is not about the war. This indictment’s not about the propriety of the war. And people who believe fervently in the war effort, people who oppose it, people who have mixed feelings about it should not look to this indictment for any resolution of how they feel or any vindication of how they feel.

This is simply an indictment that says, in a national security investigation about the compromise of a CIA officer’s identity that may have taken place in the context of a very heated debate over the war, whether some person – a person, Mr. Libby – lied or not.

The indictment will not seek to prove that the war was justified or unjustified. This is stripped of that debate, and this is focused on a narrow transaction.

And I think anyone’s who’s concerned about the war and has feelings for or against shouldn’t look to this criminal process for any answers or resolution of that.[/i]

Quite right, of course. It is certainly possible to hold good faith beliefs either way regarding the war, but the use of the indictment as a way to score points in the foreign policy/national security debate is entirely inapposite. Some would even say “dishonest.” Perhaps a different set of rationales should be used by both sides in the debate over Iraq policy. Just sayin’.

I’ll say as well that it is nice to see that there is a hard line being taken against perjury and obstruction of justice. If Scooter Libby is found guilty of having lied and having tried to cover up, he should be thrown to the wolves, as far as I am concerned. As Fitzgerald put it:

[i]FITZGERALD: I’ll be blunt.

That talking point won’t fly. If you’re doing a national security investigation, if you’re trying to find out who compromised the identity of a CIA officer and you go before a grand jury and if the charges are proven – because remember there’s a presumption of innocence – but if it is proven that the chief of staff to the vice president went before a federal grand jury and lied under oath repeatedly and fabricated a story about how he learned this information, how he passed it on, and we prove obstruction of justice, perjury and false statements to the FBI, that is a very, very serious matter.

FITZGERALD: And I’d say this: I think people might not understand this. We, as prosecutors and FBI agents, have to deal with false statements, obstruction of justice and perjury all the time. The Department of Justice charges those statutes all the time.

When I was in New York working as a prosecutor, we brought those cases because we realized that the truth is the engine of our judicial system. And if you compromise the truth, the whole process is lost.

In Philadelphia, where Jack works, they prosecute false statements and obstruction of justice.

When I got to Chicago, I knew the people before me had prosecuted false statements, obstruction and perjury cases.

FITZGERALD: And we do it all the time. And if a truck driver pays a bribe or someone else does something where they go into a grand jury afterward and lie about it, they get indicted all the time.

Any notion that anyone might have that there’s a different standard for a high official, that this is somehow singling out obstruction of justice and perjury, is upside down.

If these facts are true, if we were to walk away from this and not charge obstruction of justice and perjury, we might as well just hand in our jobs. Because our jobs, the criminal justice system, is to make sure people tell us the truth. And when it’s a high-level official and a very sensitive investigation, it is a very, very serious matter that no one should take lightly.[/i]

Of course, this should go for any legal investigations–as William Kristol( http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/239rebkj.asp ) (via Drezner: danieldrezner.com :: Daniel W. Drezner :: Open Plamegate indictments thread ) hints at:

. . . if anyone lied under oath the way Bill Clinton did–knowingly and purposefully in order to thwart a legitimate legal process, or if anyone engaged in an obstruction of justice, the way Bill Clinton did, then indictments would be proper.

Exactly. And there is this as well:

http://www.nationalreview.com//editors200510281820.asp

[i]Please spare us the excuses warmed over from Democratic talking points in the 1990s: the prosecutor is out-of-control, there was no underlying crime, etc., etc. It is the responsibility of anyone, especially a public official, to tell the truth to FBI agents and grand juries. If Libby didn’t, he should face the consequences. Fitzgerald’s indictment is not a Ronnie Earle-style partisan production, held together with scotch tape and malicious intentions. But this is the prosecutor’s day, when he gets to make the argument against his target unrebutted. Libby will get his chance to respond, and it might be that Fitzgerald’s case looks weaker soon.

But conservatives would be well-advised not to start slamming Fitzgerald. We don’t know all the facts and until we do, his acts are open to dueling interpretations. It seemed unfair for him to talk at his press conference of Libby damaging national security by revealing classified information, when Libby wasn’t charged with that. But this was a departure for the otherwise restrained and responsible Fitzgerald. The Bush administration, for its part, has conducted itself with notable forbearance in this case, avoiding the sort of smears that the Clinton administration routinely resorted to whenever a prosecutor proved inconvenient.

Fitzgerald’s merits aside, the limits of special-prosecutor investigations were once again evident in this case. Two years later, we still don’t know important facts. Was Plame covert? Fitzgerald can’t or won’t say. Who is ?Official A? (although we can all guess)? Who were the other unnamed officials? It is a prosecutor’s job to build a criminal case, period, full stop. But in high-stakes political controversies, that’s not really the public interest ? disclosure is. Then, everyone knows the facts and the public can make its judgments on what is appropriate. Offending officials can be punished with resignations and public obloquy. Except in dire cases ? say, bribery ? that process should take precedence over prosecutions rather than the other way around.

Unfortunately, Republicans and Democrats engage in alternating opportunism over ?the criminalization of politics,? and it is the Democrats? turn to pin their political hopes on the work of a prosecutor. [/i]

* Finally, it would appear that much of the commentariat has settled on the talking point of demanding that the Bush Administration show some kind of vast and general contrition. Said vast and general contrition consists in large part of ignoring the conservatives and libertarians in the country and reaching out to "the middle" (ain't it funny how we are always the ones who are supposed to be left behind in the creation of any and all political coalitions?). Specifically--and this was mentioned on Larry King this evening (yes, I know, I was slumming it)--President Bush should not nominate a conservative to the Supreme Court since that would be "divisive." Interestingly, when many thought that the Clinton Administration, prior to the 1994 midterms, was in its political death throes, no one demanded that President Clinton pass up on opportunities to nominate decidedly non-conservative folk like Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer to the Supreme Court. If there is an explanation for that lack of a general demand that does not involve bias on the part of the commentariat, I would be delighted to hear it. Please make it credible, though.

Boston,

I haven’t seen anybody bitching about Fitzgerald and what he plans to do at all. What media are you seeing that on?

Maybe I need to go find some radical conservative or radical liberal web sites to read or something? I suspect some conservative group is trying to characterize the liberal response in that way, but maybe it is really out there and I just haven’t seen it.

The talking heads (on both sides) will do a lot of mischaracterizations of the other side…

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

BostonBarrister wrote:
The indictment is out - Libby, on two counts of making false statements, two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/28/D8DH5FOG0.html

No one else, for anything. And no info on whether the grand jury has been extended either.

And nothing on any of the alleged crimes for which the special prosecutor was created. Nary a peep.

endgamer711 wrote:

After all that perjury, what did you expect? A successful investigation?

BostonBarrister wrote:

Ahem. “All that perjury” apparently only applies to allegations over 2 statements by Scooter Libby. One would think that over the course of the two-year investigation the prosecutor may have been able to talk to a few other people – including the ones to whom whatever information he was investigating was actually leaked. So yeah, I would think he could have quite a “successful” investigation, if there was anything to find (by “successful” I assume you mean he uncovered the conspiracy by the cabal in the Administration to let loose with national-security secrets in order to discredit truth-teller and all around swell guy Joe Wilson).

chadman wrote:

Just curious if you felt this same way when Ken Starr was the special prosecutor? All we got about the original investigation was, well, nothing. But we did find out Clinton lied about getting a blowjob from an intern.

That’s quite the selective memory loss you’ve got going on there Chadman.

Starr got indictments on quite a few crimes – do the names Jim Guy Tucker or Webster Hubbell ring any bells?

Here’s an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry on Whitewater – some non-Lewinsky items:

EXCERPT:

Relating to the Whitewater failure and the Clintons’ legal involvement with Castle Grande, they were repeatedly questioned by reporters about the fiasco following Bill Clinton’s bid for the presidency. Early in Clinton’s presidency, one of his attorneys Vince Foster committed suicide (July 23, 1993). Documents regarding Clinton’s personal information were then removed from Foster’s office, reigniting an investigation.

At Clinton’s request, a special prosecutor was appointed in 1994 by the Department of Justice to investigate the legality of Whitewater transactions. Two further accusations then surfaced: that Clinton had exerted pressure on a Little Rock, Arkansas businessman to make a loan that would benefit him and the owners of Madison Guaranty, and that an Arkansas bank had concealed transactions involving Clinton’s gubernatorial campaign in 1990.

The Clintons were cleared of any wrongdoing in two reports subsequently prepared by the San Francisco law firm of Pillsbury Madison and Sutro for the Resolution Trust Corporation, which was overseeing the bankruptcy of Madison Guaranty.

When the Whitewater scandal first surfaced, Attorney General Janet Reno appointed a special prosecutor to investigate the matter. The prosecutor, Robert Fiske (a Republican and former United States Attorney) was subsequently replaced by independent counsel Kenneth Starr when the investigation was transferred to the jurisidiction of the Office of the Independent Counsel. Independent counsels are appointed by a panel of federal judges, to avoid a potential conflict of interest by the Attorney General (a Presidential political appointee).

On January 26, 1996 Hillary Clinton testified before a grand jury concerning her investments in Whitewater.

Over the course of the investigation, fifteen individuals – including Clinton friends James McDougal and Susan McDougal, White House counsel Webster Hubbel and Arkansas Governor Jim Guy Tucker – were convicted of federal charges. Four of these were pardoned by the President in the last days of his second term.

[/quote]

You are, of course, correct. I was being specific to Bill Clinton and what he was indicted for.

BTW, I hated the mass pardons Clinton gave out. Really pissed me off. I didn’t vote for him his second term anyway.

I just don’t see the right scrutinizing Bush the way they did Clinton. If a dem was in the White House and had led us the way Bush has, the right would be foaming at the mouth.

Heh, while Fitzgerald is correct, the indictments have NOTHING to do with the lead in to war and all that, he is merely trying to excuse himself from the process of politicization that will occur around his investigation.

He is simply describing his official stance and viewpoint. The fact that damning information in other directions may or may not be highlighted it not significant to him, it is not his fault, and it is not his intent.

However, this doesn’t mean that the indictments can’t be used by people not involved in the process to draw conclusions or ask prying questions if they wish.

Don’t confuse his official stance and rationale with what can be done or believed by others based on what he has been able to find within the course of his investigation.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
mmg_4 wrote:

I congratulate you for being able to go tit for tat on an internet forum, tough guy, and really, your not that good at it. Your a conservative, and will do what it takes to advance the conservative cause, whether it be morally right or wrong, huh??

Well - I’m a shitload better than you are at it. But I dont think of myself as a tough guy. I am honest, and I would tell you what I think whether you are sitting at home typing on mommy’s computer, or standing right in front of me. I am not ashamed of what I believe in, and I’m damn sure not affraid to stand by it.

I have never supported anything that is morally wrong. And you can’t find anywhere on this site, or any other that that would support you saying otherwise. But nice try at straw manning when you have nothing left in your pitiful little sack of arguments.

Right, and your not a sheep. As for standing for something, well, I guess since im not a left wing “thinktard” as you put it or a conservative, I guess i stand for common sense, which allows me to see through lie after lie after lie told by certain people in our government.

You have no idea what a thinktard is, do you? In fact you are just like all of the other idiotic tumbleweeds that blow through here - real tough talk but never staying around long enough to actually take a stand on anything other than to make a futile attempt at attacking me.

You are a liar and a coward - and if my bat senses are correct, a punk assed kid that has never held a job, or spent more than a week from home, and that being a summer camp with some Indian sounding name where you made boondoggle keychains, and sang kumbaya at at bond-fire.

So you could say I am for the truth and against the sickening lies…and as for quoting a history teacher, well, you said nothing to disprove that statement of his and it molded perfectly for this forum, i thought…

You stand FOR nothing. You are a punk ass who thinks it is cool to kiss your teacher’s ass by trying to live your life like him.

You are so quick to label me as a sheep, yet you see no problem following your teacher around like a lost puppy-dog. Have you ever had an original thought? He may be a very smart guy - but you aren’t thinking for yourself. You are kissing his ass.

Come back and try again when you start having thoughts that don’t involve a fucking highschool teacher.

[/quote]

And if i were to guess from the way you talk youre probably a redneck who follows your redneck leader around like a puppy dog. Nice try on the punk kid talk and not being away from home for more than a week though. Actually ive been all over the country playing pro baseball and have held quite a few jobs, but nice try bro. And the sheep comment stems from the fact of you saying you would do ANYTHING to advance the conservative cause. I could get in a debate with you on how this administration is morally wrong, but why bother? Your eyes would be open to that for about 2 seconds, i presuppose. And what did I lie about?? Keep the insults coming rainjack. Enlighten me, what is a thinktard?

[quote]mmg_4 wrote:
And if i were to guess from the way you talk youre probably a redneck who follows your redneck leader around like a puppy dog. [/quote]

You’ll have to define redneck. By the way you are using the term - it seems as if you are trying to make some sort of racial slur. Is that something that a self-described free thinker would do? SOunds more like a bigoted ass than a free thinker to me.

I wouldn’t run around bragging about that if you are going to get on here and post like a teenager.

A sheep is someone that blindly follows without question. Because I am suprememly confident in my beliefs hardly qualifies as being a sheep. If you have read my posts as you proclaim that you do you would see that I have parted ways with the Republican party line on many issues.

I am a conservative. I also happen to be a republican, but because it most closely aligns with most of my beliefs. I am confident and opinionated in my beliefs - hardly a sheep.

You have presented yourself as an independent thinker, but you have yet to back up anything. That is not an indpendent thinker. Presenting yourself as something you are not is being a liar in my book.

You started this idiotic exchange. If you don’t like the insults - then quit calling me out. I have been here for several years doing and saying the same thing. I’m not going anywhere.

You say that you have read my posts. I coined that term not even a week ago. Surely you can live up to your talk and actually find it out on your own.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

BostonBarrister wrote:
The substantial bulk of the work of the investigation is concluded.

endgamer711 wrote:

I think the current indictments are but the tip of the iceberg with respect to the investigation already done. The bulk of the work of investigation is done, and all that remains is to fill in a few chinks on whatever it is we haven’t seen yet.

We do know there is something further coming we haven’t seen yet. And it is likely not just a report, also according to Fitz.

We’ll see endgamer. Right now all we’re going on is speculation. At any rate, I’ll handicap the odds to this extent: it’s more likely that you’ll see a subsequent indictment (some possibility) than that you’ll get information alleging some conspiracy to lie to the American people on the run up to Iraq (0% possible).
[/quote]

Oh, undoubtedly you mean get the information from this particular investigation. I would certainly agree. Fitz is a good prosecutor and knows the limit of his charter.

But the necessary information has already come from other sources, BB. We see the shape of the conspiracy very clearly now. Cheneyco needed to cut the CIA out of the loop, since the information coming from there didn’t suit the purpose at hand, i.e. stampeding the public into an optional war.

More information will come out of the trial, and maybe Scooter will eventually write an autobiography. I gather he likes to write. I would really like to know more about his motivation for his little campaign against Wilson. From reports it seems he got quite wrapped around the axle. What was driving this thing? Was it more to set the CIA back on its haunches with chilling effect to further revelations from that quarter, or was it more a matter of discrediting Wilson specifically? Or punishing him for his effrontery? Three birds with one stone, no doubt, but where was the major emphasis I wonder?

If Shakespeare were alive he’d make a play out of it. Libby is definitely a tragic figure here.

Pretty darn good op-ed by Lanny Davis, ex-White House counsel under Clinton, taking a look at the politics of this thing.

Here’s a link:

A couple of my favorite excerpts:

Equally remarkable, some Republicans are now suggesting that perjury is not such a big deal. Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas said last weekend that perjury before a grand jury is only a “technicality,” comparing Mr. Fitzgerald’s investigation to that of Martha Stewart, “where they couldn’t find a crime and they indict on something that she said about something that wasn’t a crime.” (To their credit, the editorialists at The Wall Street Journal had the intellectual honesty this week of admitting that perjury is perjury.)

and

Similarly, the Democrats are playing up the idea that White House officials may have endangered national security in playing hardball politics. Well, I can remember all the times I picked up the phone and talked “on background” to reporters, “pushing back” against rumors damaging to President Clinton and citing information that I thought was “out there.” I don’t remember ever worrying about whether the facts that I felt were public knowledge might have been classified. But even if I had, I would probably have rationalized that anything I had heard on the grapevine couldn’t possibly be a state secret. If every political aide was prosecuted for those kinds of conversations with the press corps, I’m afraid there wouldn’t be enough jails to hold us.

and the conclusion, also good:

The best result of this latest scandal, and the hypocrisy and finger-pointing exhibited on both sides, would be for voters to say, “A pox on both your houses,” reject the scandal culture and gotcha politics of both parties and seek new politics of common cause, collegiality and the public interest. The alternative is that most people will conclude that in American politics today the only standard is the double standard, and the cycles of conflict and rancor will continue.