Espionage Act - 1st Amendment Prblm

I find this highly troubling – a knowing leaker of classified information, particulary one with the view of aiding and abetting the enemy (under a known or should have known standard) should be punished, but I find it troublesome to push prosecution further. This is just one judge at the district level, but still troubling.

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_08_06-2006_08_12.shtml#1155241888

[Jonathan Adler, August 10, 2006 at 4:31pm] 7 Trackbacks / Possibly More Trackbacks
Gov’t May Prosecute Recipients of Leaked Information:

The federal government may prosecute private citizens who illegally receive and retransmit classified information, held federal district court Judge T.S. Ellis III yesterday in United States v. Rosen ( http://www.fas.org/sgp/jud/rosen080906.pdf ). Judge Ellis denied a motion to dismiss filed by Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman, two former employees of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), who are being prosecuted under the Espionage Act for obtaining classified information and communicating it to third parties, including members of the media. According to Judge Ellis:

both common sense and the relevant precedent point persuasively to the conclusion that the government can punish those outside of the government for the unauthorized receipt and deliberate retransmission of information relating to the national defense.

Any violation of the statute must be both knowing and willful, Judge Ellis ruled, narrowing the implications of the decision.

the government must . . . prove that the person alleged to have violated these provisions knew the nature of the information, knew that the person with whom they were communicating was not entitled to the information, and knew that such communication was illegal, but proceeded nonetheless. . . . [And] with respect only to intangible information, the government must prove that the defendant had a reason to believe that the disclosure of the information could harm the United States or aid a foreign nation, which the Supreme Court has interpreted as a requirement of bad faith.

While allowing the government’s prosecution to proceed, Judge Ellis made clear he was not passing on the wisdom of the government’s proseuction, just its contitutionality.

The conclusion that the statute is constitutionally permissible does not reflect a judgment about whether Congress could strike a more appropriate balance between these competing interests, or whether a more carefully drawn statute could better serve both the national security and the value of public debate. . . . the time is ripe for Congress to engage in a thorough review and revision of these provisions to ensure that they reflect both these changes, and contemporary views about the appropriate balance between our nation?s security and our citizens? ability to engage in public debate about the United States? conduct in the society of nations.

Steven Aftergood on the Secrecy News blog notes that Judge Ellis’ decision could have distubing implications for press freedoms:

[i] the classified 2004 report of Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba on prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison clearly fit the court’s description of national defense information that is closely held by the government. Moreover, its unauthorized disclosure was likely to, and did in fact, harm the United States. And yet that disclosure also served an important national purpose in prompting a public debate over U.S. policy on prisoner detention and interrogation.

But under Judge Ellis' new interpretation, those reporters and others who communicated this information to the public could apparently be prosecuted under the Espionage Act.[/i]

Under Judge Ellis’ interpretation, it also seems the federal government could prosecute reporters at the Washington Post and New York Times for their reports on secret prisons, NSA surveillance, and other classified counter-terrror activities.

Good!

If someone leaks top secret information it is your duty as an American citizen to turn that traitor in.

How liberal of me?

This looks like it targets whistelblowers and reporters.

Bad deal, I agree that aiding the enemy is clearly a crime, while leaking information to a reporter is not.

Haven’t most of the really nasty scandals only be revealed through leaked classified info? Watergate, Abu Ghraib, how many others?

[quote]ExNole wrote:
This looks like it targets whistelblowers and reporters.

Bad deal, I agree that aiding the enemy is clearly a crime, while leaking information to a reporter is not.

Haven’t most of the really nasty scandals only be revealed through leaked classified info? Watergate, Abu Ghraib, how many others?[/quote]

It all depends on the nature of the leak.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I find this highly troubling – a knowing leaker of classified information, particulary one with the view of aiding and abetting the enemy (under a known or should have known standard) should be punished, but I find it troublesome to push prosecution further. This is just one judge at the district level, but still troubling.

Under Judge Ellis’ interpretation, it also seems the federal government could prosecute reporters at the Washington Post and New York Times for their reports on secret prisons, NSA surveillance, and other classified counter-terrror activities.[/quote]

Talk about comparing apples to carburetors.

Clever in how it downplays (and I do mean DOWNPLAYS) the main issue of agents for a foreign government (Israel) conducting a large scale espionage operation at the highest levels of our government and then tries to tie it in with prosecuting reporters for exposing ILLEGAL and unconstitutional government operations.

Of course they (you) don’t want to prosecute because it goes right to the Pentagon “Office of Special Plans” and Douglas Feith and all the cooked and fabricated intelligence that got us into Iraq.

It goes right to the heart of our misguided foreign policy.

FBI probes Jewish sway on Bush government
HAARETZ, 05/09/2004
WASHINGTON - The FBI investigation into the Pentagon mole affair has expanded beyond data analyst Larry Franklin’s immediate circle to encompass the entire issue of Jewish influence on the neoconservative part of the administration.

The FBI queries have recently been focusing on a number of officials, all from the neoconservative wing, who had access to the debates on Iranian affairs, the Washington Post reported yesterday.

The officials include Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz; Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith; Pentagon adviser Richard Perle; adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney, David Wormser; and Iran specialist Harold Rhode, all of them Jews.

The Washington Post reported that FBI people recently spoke to administration officials and Middle East experts to sound them out on the suspicion that senior officials funneled secret material to Israel. They asked each official whether he believes that a certain group of people could spy for Israel and transfer secret information.

The investigation now appears to center on the claim made by the opponents of the neoconservatives in the administration - that the latter are responsible for the U.S. Middle East policy and that they are suspected of bias in favor of Israel’s interests.

The issues being queried have also increased. It transpires that the FBI is investigating, in addition to funneling classified information to Israel, the possibility that secret information had been given to Ahmed Chalabi, of the Iraqi opposition. Chalabi was close to many of the people mentioned in the affair and was a central source of information to the Americans on the goings-on in Iraq before the war.

The Washington Post said the FBI asked the administration officials about Israeli embassy officials in Washington who allegedly held contacts with administration officials to procure secret information. So far, only the name of Naor Gilon, the political adviser in the embassy, was mentioned as involved in the affair.

The L.A. Times reported on Friday that the American administration does not believe Israel’s contention that it does not spy on America and that U.S. government officials say Israel secretly maintains a large and active intelligence-gathering operation in the U.S.

The officials said the FBI and other bodies spy on Israeli diplomats in Washington and New York as a matter of routine. The report said that Israel has long attempted to recruit U.S. officials as spies and to procure classified documents, according to the Times.

Israel said it set a policy of not spying on the United States after Jonathan Pollard’s arrest in November 1985 and the damage it did to bilateral relations in general and to intelligence and security ties in particular. For 20 years, Israel said, that policy has translated into unequivocal directives to the intelligence and defense communities: They are not allowed to locate candidates for recruiting as agents, cannot recruit and operate agents, nor pay for information.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=473428&contrassID=1

Spat Erupts Between Neocons, Intelligence Community
FORWARD
December 31, 2004
http://tinyurl.com/n4tte

Israel’s Fifth Column in Washington
The AIPAC spy scandal points to a massive undercover operation
December 17, 2004
…We already know that the investigation into AIPAC and Israeli espionage against the U.S. had been going on for at least two years prior to the FBI stumbling on Franklin’s treachery. This larger investigation seemed to come out of mid-air: no previous reporting had been done on it, except for the “Israeli art students” story, broken by Carl Cameron, pursued by Christopher Ketcham in Salon, and a few others, as well as myself [See my short book, The Terror Enigma: 9/11 and the Israeli Connection], and then dropped into the journalistic ether.

The Franklin affair, however, has revived the suspicion that Israel regards us as something other than a “deeply cherished ally,” and Sale’s reporting underscores the adversarial reality behind the “special relationship.” He cites “a former federal law enforcement official” who told him

“During the Cold War, Israeli penetration of U.S. operations was second only to the Soviet Union. Few people realize that the Israeli Counterintelligence Desk at the Bureau was second in size only to the CI Soviet desk.”

And as the Cold War began to wind down, the pace of Israeli covert actions directed at the United States began to escalate:

“One current FBI consultant said Rosen’s name had first been given to the FBI in 1986, along with 70 possible incidents of Israeli espionage against the United States. No action was taken against him, this source said.”

The rot had set in, and the moles burrowed deeper:

“A former very senior CIA counterintelligence official told UPI that in 1998-99, the CIA discovered an Israeli couple, who were subcontracted to a U.S. phone company, were working for Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service. ‘They did incredible damage - they got incredibly sensitive data, including key words identifying individuals or projects,’ this source said, adding he himself gave the case to the FBI.”

To understand what this “very senior” spook is talking about, you have to follow this link http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm and watch the Fox News report detailing Israel’s hi-tech infiltration of U.S. communications, including wiretapping and top-secret internal security systems…
Israel's Fifth Column in Washington - Antiwar.com Original

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
More rambling conspiracy crap
[/quote]

JustTheFacts,

Honest question for ya. If the government (ours or Israel’s) is so heinous and evil, why are you still allowed to post this drivel? Why haven’t you been paid a visit in the dark of night by a Mossad agent or even a mid-level Department of Homeland Security hitman?

I’m sure this is only one of at least 100 websites you post this stuff on. Surely you have caught their attention by now. Hell, I know I forward all of your posts directly to the desk of Michael Chertoff. Why are you still breathing if all you say is true?

[quote]doogie wrote:

JustTheFacts,

Honest question for ya. If the government (ours or Israel’s) is so heinous and evil, why are you still allowed to post this drivel? Why haven’t you been paid a visit in the dark of night by a Mossad agent or even a mid-level Department of Homeland Security hitman?

I’m sure this is only one of at least 100 websites you post this stuff on. Surely you have caught their attention by now. Hell, I know I forward all of your posts directly to the desk of Michael Chertoff. Why are you still breathing if all you say is true?[/quote]

This is a great question, one we have all been waiting to hear the answer on.

[quote]doogie wrote:
JustTheFacts wrote:
More rambling conspiracy crap

JustTheFacts,

Honest question for ya. If the government (ours or Israel’s) is so heinous and evil, why are you still allowed to post this drivel? Why haven’t you been paid a visit in the dark of night by a Mossad agent or even a mid-level Department of Homeland Security hitman?

I’m sure this is only one of at least 100 websites you post this stuff on. Surely you have caught their attention by now. Hell, I know I forward all of your posts directly to the desk of Michael Chertoff. Why are you still breathing if all you say is true?[/quote]

Hell, your the perfect example of why they aren’t worried about me. You act like it’s ME personally making all this up – what you call “conspiracy crap” is taken right from legitimate news sources. Two of the sources I linked to are JEWISH – HAARETZ is an extremely well known Israeli news source and the FORWARD is a Jewish newspaper published in New York for a hundred years.

Even worse, FOX (of all news sources) does a four part series detailing how Israeli spies compromised our entire intelligence communications network, including spying on the DEA, FBI, NSA – and you still think it’s just a MYTH…
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm



[quote]BRIT HUME: Carl, what about this question of advanced knowledge of what was going to happen on 9/11? How clear are investigators that some Israeli agents may have known something?

CARL CAMERON: It’s very explosive information, obviously, and there’s a great deal of evidence that they say they have collected – none of it necessarily conclusive. It’s more when they put it all together. A bigger question, they say, is how could they not have know? Almost a direct quote.[/quote]

How bizarre you are.

~ Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Vietnam War

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
doogie wrote:
JustTheFacts wrote:
More rambling conspiracy crap

JustTheFacts,

Honest question for ya. If the government (ours or Israel’s) is so heinous and evil, why are you still allowed to post this drivel? Why haven’t you been paid a visit in the dark of night by a Mossad agent or even a mid-level Department of Homeland Security hitman?

I’m sure this is only one of at least 100 websites you post this stuff on. Surely you have caught their attention by now. Hell, I know I forward all of your posts directly to the desk of Michael Chertoff. Why are you still breathing if all you say is true?

Hell, your the perfect example of why they aren’t worried about me. You act like it’s ME personally making all this up – what you call “conspiracy crap” is taken right from legitimate news sources. Two of the sources I linked to are JEWISH – HAARETZ is an extremely well known Israeli news source and the FORWARD is a Jewish newspaper published in New York for a hundred years.

Even worse, FOX (of all news sources) does a four part series detailing how Israeli spies compromised our entire intelligence communications network, including spying on the DEA, FBI, NSA – and you still think it’s just a MYTH…
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm

[/quote]

Um, you didn’t really answer my question. Why doesn’t the Mosad slit your throat in the dark of night (dressed as Arabs or not)? Crazy is contagious. Why take the chance to let yours spread?

[quote]doogie wrote:
JustTheFacts wrote:
More rambling conspiracy crap

JustTheFacts,

Honest question for ya. If the government (ours or Israel’s) is so heinous and evil, why are you still allowed to post this drivel? Why haven’t you been paid a visit in the dark of night by a Mossad agent or even a mid-level Department of Homeland Security hitman?

I’m sure this is only one of at least 100 websites you post this stuff on. Surely you have caught their attention by now. Hell, I know I forward all of your posts directly to the desk of Michael Chertoff. Why are you still breathing if all you say is true?[/quote]

Well, maybe because there’s to many people that feel the same way that a genocide of free speakers may raise a tad bit of suspicion. Really, what a jackass remark. Maybe because this is just small talk, and they know that the masses are too brainwashed for any of this to matter at all.

Look at people like you, a compelte drone, it’s because the majority of people are so inclinced to beleive and not question that they don’t need to feel threatened by those who do.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
ExNole wrote:
This looks like it targets whistelblowers and reporters.

Bad deal, I agree that aiding the enemy is clearly a crime, while leaking information to a reporter is not.

Haven’t most of the really nasty scandals only be revealed through leaked classified info? Watergate, Abu Ghraib, how many others?

It all depends on the nature of the leak.[/quote]

Exaactly, the leak itself shouldn’t be automatically criminal, though that really wasn’t clear in my post.

[quote]MisterAmazing wrote:

Well, maybe because there’s to many people that feel the same way that a genocide of free speakers may raise a tad bit of suspicion. Really, what a jackass remark. Maybe because this is just small talk, and they know that the masses are too brainwashed for any of this to matter at all.

Look at people like you, a compelte drone, it’s because the majority of people are so inclinced to beleive and not question that they don’t need to feel threatened by those who do.[/quote]

Thanks for chiming in Mrs. JTF.

[quote]MisterAmazing wrote:
Look at people like you, a compelte drone, it’s because the majority of people are so inclinced to beleive and not question that they don’t need to feel threatened by those who do.[/quote]

Have you actually said anything here except to hurl names at those that think differently?

Do you have an opinion? I have yet to see it if you have.

Who in the hell left the looney left wingnut gate open?

My bet is that they will all slink back into their respective holes after the November elections.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Um, you didn’t really answer my question. Why doesn’t the Mosad slit your throat in the dark of night (dressed as Arabs or not)? Crazy is contagious. Why take the chance to let yours spread?
[/quote]

Um, yes I did. Like I said, it’s all public knowledge.
Crazy and informed are two different things. I don’t make the news, I just bring attention to it. Any rational person could see that.

Just giving you an American’s point of view – what you choose to ignore of course is up to you.

Now if you really want to talk evil…

White House Proposal Would Expand Authority of Military Courts
Washington Post - August 2, 2006

A draft Bush administration plan for special military courts seeks to expand the reach and authority of such “commissions” to include trials, for the first time, of people who are not members of al-Qaeda or the Taliban and are not directly involved in acts of international terrorism, according to officials familiar with the proposal.

The plan, which would replace a military trial system ruled illegal by the Supreme Court in June, would also allow the secretary of defense to add crimes at will to those under the military court’s jurisdiction. The two provisions would be likely to put more individuals than previously expected before military juries, officials and independent experts said.

The draft proposed legislation, set to be discussed at two Senate hearings today, is controversial inside and outside the administration because defendants would be denied many protections guaranteed by the civilian and traditional military criminal justice systems.

Under the proposed procedures, defendants would lack rights to confront accusers, exclude hearsay accusations, or bar evidence obtained through rough or coercive interrogations. They would not be guaranteed a public or speedy trial and would lack the right to choose their military counsel, who in turn would not be guaranteed equal access to evidence held by prosecutors…

I wonder when you’ll finally notice something isn’t quite right?
First they came ... - Wikipedia

[quote]rainjack wrote:
MisterAmazing wrote:
Look at people like you, a compelte drone, it’s because the majority of people are so inclinced to beleive and not question that they don’t need to feel threatened by those who do.

Have you actually said anything here except to hurl names at those that think differently?

Do you have an opinion? I have yet to see it if you have.

Who in the hell left the looney left wingnut gate open?

My bet is that they will all slink back into their respective holes after the November elections. [/quote]

He thinks he rambling posts show his incredible insight.

Don’t you know he is smarter than everyone else? He read a book in 7th grade!

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
rainjack wrote:
MisterAmazing wrote:
Look at people like you, a compelte drone, it’s because the majority of people are so inclinced to beleive and not question that they don’t need to feel threatened by those who do.

Have you actually said anything here except to hurl names at those that think differently?

Do you have an opinion? I have yet to see it if you have.

Who in the hell left the looney left wingnut gate open?

My bet is that they will all slink back into their respective holes after the November elections.

He thinks he rambling posts show his incredible insight.

Don’t you know he is smarter than everyone else? He read a book in 7th grade![/quote]

There are a couple people on here who seem to think the longer the post the smarter the poster.

[quote]ExNole wrote:
This looks like it targets whistelblowers and reporters.

Bad deal, I agree that aiding the enemy is clearly a crime, while leaking information to a reporter is not.

Haven’t most of the really nasty scandals only be revealed through leaked classified info? Watergate, Abu Ghraib, how many others?[/quote]

I hope you realize tha Watergate has nothing to do with naional security and neither did Abu Ghraib.

Plame did.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
ExNole wrote:
This looks like it targets whistelblowers and reporters.

Bad deal, I agree that aiding the enemy is clearly a crime, while leaking information to a reporter is not.

Haven’t most of the really nasty scandals only be revealed through leaked classified info? Watergate, Abu Ghraib, how many others?

I hope you realize tha Watergate has nothing to do with naional security and neither did Abu Ghraib.

Plame did.[/quote]

Plame was outed by herself and her ‘husband’ long beofre she was supposedly outed by Rove.

Surely you can see that Plame was at the very least complicit in her outing.

Political gamery is being played on both sides.

[quote]ExNole wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
ExNole wrote:
This looks like it targets whistelblowers and reporters.

Bad deal, I agree that aiding the enemy is clearly a crime, while leaking information to a reporter is not.

Haven’t most of the really nasty scandals only be revealed through leaked classified info? Watergate, Abu Ghraib, how many others?

It all depends on the nature of the leak.

Exaactly, the leak itself shouldn’t be automatically criminal, though that really wasn’t clear in my post. [/quote]

If anything, the original leak should be the only thing that is criminal, as the original leaker is the one with the duty to protect the information. This is especially true when the original leaker is an employee of the CIA or some other intelligence agency, or in the military.

Aside from something like nuclear-weapon plans or battle plans, which would be extreme cases, I fail to see how the recipient of the leak can be prosecuted for further spreading the information – at least consistent with the 1st Amendment.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:

I hope you realize tha Watergate has nothing to do with naional security and neither did Abu Ghraib.

Plame did.[/quote]

So you keep saying, though somehow no charges have come out of it that are in any way related to national security…

However, the “black prisons”, the financial surveillance and the data-mining surely were related to national security.