Revisiting the Alleged Leak

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Pretty darn good op-ed by Lanny Davis, ex-White House counsel under Clinton, taking a look at the politics of this thing.

Here’s a link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/29/opinion/29davis.html?ex=1288238400&en=000ced4e1d12886a&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

A couple of my favorite excerpts:

[/quote]

I certainly agree the time has come for third party politics to take a progressive broom (hose?) to that mess in Washington. But anyone should have reached that conclusion no later than ten years ago.

Otherwise, here’s my favorite excerpt:

A bit disingenuous though, don’t you think? If the administration had openly and directly criticized Wilson, it would have accelerated the unraveling of the coverup. Open and direct criticism would have involved resort to the facts of the matter, and the facts of the matter show that key pieces of negative intelligence on WMDs were brazenly suppressed during the run up to the invasion, with the original total, already discredited red herring from Italy substituted in their place, in order to conjure a scary mushroom cloud to impress the sheeple.

There was also that aluminum tube fiasco, but it was a bit more ambiguous. This yellow cake scam however was really, truly raw, not suited for the tender eyes of the electorate. The best handle they had on Wilson to discredit him - actually the best excuse they could come up with for why they had discounted his report - was to say his wife sent him. So that was what they used. National security be damned.

This unravelling in the WHIG coverup story would have occurred just prior to the 2004 elections … not acceptable!

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:

A bit disingenuous though, don’t you think? If the administration had openly and directly criticized Wilson, it would have accelerated the unraveling of the coverup. Open and direct criticism would have involved resort to the facts of the matter, and the facts of the matter show that key pieces of negative intelligence on WMDs were brazenly suppressed during the run up to the invasion, with the original total, already discredited red herring from Italy substituted in their place, in order to conjure a scary mushroom cloud to impress the sheeple.

There was also that aluminum tube fiasco, but it was a bit more ambiguous. This yellow cake scam however was really, truly raw, not suited for the tender eyes of the electorate. The best handle they had on Wilson to discredit him - actually the best excuse they could come up with for why they had discounted his report - was to say his wife sent him. So that was what they used. National security be damned.

This unravelling in the WHIG coverup story would have occurred just prior to the 2004 elections … not acceptable![/quote]

This obviously goes to a slight difference in opinion between Dems and Republicans surrounding the “16 words,” which we’ve discussed enough and I don’t want to rehash. Suffice it to say I agree with Lanny that they should have directly confronted Mr. Wilson and his claims.

To steal some analysis from Jonah Goldberg:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_10_30_corner-archive.asp#081218

The more I read and think about this – and watch both sides on the Sunday shows – I think this whole story is an enormous fizzle. Maybe the investigation is going someplace exciting, maybe there’s more than we know, etc etc. But as it appears to me right now, this is a bust. No conspiracy to out a CIA agent. No serious smear campaign against Wilson run out of the White House. No indictments on the underlying alleged crime to begin with. No indictment of Rove and none appearing to be in the works.

Some on the left hope that the Libby trial will rip open the debate about the war and expose all sorts of juicy details. But how can that happen? The prosecution will have no interest in dragging the war into the trial. The defense won’t be interested in doing that – at least not in any way that will reflect badly on the war. So how will the trial – perhaps a year from now by the way – re-open the White House’s war wounds?

My first reaction, recall, was that this was bad news for the White House because it will keep the story in play. But – barring new revelations from Fitzgerald – I don’t think it will. Sure, the Democrats will try. But it’s hard to see how Libby’s problems will even stay in the news past the next week.

The pre-trial wrangling will take place mostly out of the headlines. The news will be generally dry – court dates set, witness lists revealed etc. Yes, it would be buzzy if Cheney testified but what would he say? He’d describe a brief conversation and that would be it.

Again, neither side in the case has any incentive to put the White House on trial or anything like that. So Cheney testifies away from the cameras and pfft, that’s it. And even if Libby’s convicted – which still sounds like a big if to me – it will be a long time from now and won’t serve to confirm any of the major allegations against the White House itself.

Bush is going to pick a new Supreme Court nominee tomorrow or the next day which will hopefully rally the base and the political narrative will all be about his comeback – real or attempted. And, let’s not forget, there’s a lot of other news out there.

I can’t believe how many times I’ve heard that this is non-news.

Go away. Nothing to see here. It’s not interesting. Nothing will happen. Nobody will be indicted. It’s not a real indictment. The trials, if they happen, won’t go anywhere interesting.

All translating to, PLEASE FOCUS ON SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY KICKING THE CRAP OUT OF PUBLIC PERCEPTION OF REPUBLICANS IN GENERAL.

Move on, nothing to see here…

vroom: have you ever seen an inept manager or exec or a fraternity officer just lash out at his accusers/criticizers? If the bush/cheney administration had more popularity this kind of thing wouldnt be happening. They are feeling angst over not being able to accomplish much do to their bad press i beleive

[quote]vroom wrote:
I can’t believe how many times I’ve heard that this is non-news.

Go away. Nothing to see here. It’s not interesting. Nothing will happen. Nobody will be indicted. It’s not a real indictment. The trials, if they happen, won’t go anywhere interesting.

All translating to, PLEASE FOCUS ON SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY KICKING THE CRAP OUT OF PUBLIC PERCEPTION OF REPUBLICANS IN GENERAL.

Move on, nothing to see here…[/quote]

It would be a bit more exciting if W. or Cheney had gotten a blow job in the Oval Office, but to think it’s not news is ridiculous.

Even if this fades away, W., Cheney, Frist, DeLay, et al are doing plenty of other crap to make people think again about voting Republican in the near future.

If the right really wants to stay in office, better hope Bush doesn’t get an anti-abortion justice on the Supreme Court. If Roe v. Wade were to be overturned I think the Right would awake a sleeping giant. Many right of center won’t admit it, but they want their daughter to be able to terminate a pregnancy if some pimply faced pinky commie knocks her up. I’ve know many people who personally said they would NEVER get an abortion, until they got knocked up at a bad time or by the wrong guy.

[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
vroom: have you ever seen an inept manager or exec or a fraternity officer just lash out at his accusers/criticizers? If the bush/cheney administration had more popularity this kind of thing wouldnt be happening. They are feeling angst over not being able to accomplish much do to their bad press i beleive[/quote]

I think you are correct when you compare Bush/Cheney to inept managers and frat boys.

This really is never going to amount to much. It definitely isn’t going to be what the liberals were hoping for.

Scooter will probably go to trial, he’ll admit he made an honest mistake (of course he was lying intentionally), point out that he didn’t destroy the incriminating evidence, and get a slap on the wrist.

What it boils down to is that he found out she was a CIA agent from Cheney, but couldn’t do anything with it. Then Russert told him she was a CIA agent, so he felt free to spread the info. He fucked up when he lied (and I do think he lied) about where he first heard it. Bad Scooter. Bad.

[quote]chadman wrote:

It would be a bit more exciting if W. or Cheney had gotten a blow job in the Oval Office, but to think it’s not news is ridiculous.
[/quote]

Surely you meant to say, “It would be more exciting if the President or Vice-President committed perjury”, right?

People don’t pay attention to things like this. If the did, Clinton would have made sure no Democrat was ever elected again.

This list was compiled BEFORE Clinton was re-elected:

The A To Z Of Clinton Scandals

           ...It's The Alphabet Of Ethics -- Stupid!

  Whitewatergate, travelgate, cattlegate and now
  Indonesiagate...there seem to be more gates in the Clinton
  White House than on the barns of America.

  So just in case you've lost track of the scandals that have
  hit this current White House the Post's DEBORAH ORIN and
  THOMAS GALVIN have pieced together your cut-out-and-keep
  guide A to Z of Clinton scandals.....

  A is for Arkansas, where Bill Clinton got his political
  start, where Hillary Rodham Clinton worked at the Rose Law
  Firm, and where Whitewater began as a land deal between the
  Clintons and Jim and Susan McDougal.

  B is for Billing-gate, Hillary Clinton's missing law-billing
  records. Those records -- which raise questions about Mrs.
  Clinton's role in the Castle Grande deal -- were subpoenaed
  in 1994. They were missing until early 1996, when they
  turned up in a White House room next to her office. She says
  she doesn't know how they got there.

  C is for Cattlegate, Hillary Clinton's mysterious ability to
  turn a $1,000 investment into a $100,000 profit on cattle
  futures, a feat experts say was virtually impossible in
  normal trading. C is also for Castle Grande, a real-estate
  scheme that federal regulators say was a sham. A federal
  inspector general's report found Hillary Clinton drew up the
  legal papers that were used to improperly funnel hundreds of
  thousands of dollars to Seth Ward, father-in-law of her
  ex-law partner Webster Hubbell.

  D is for Billy Dale, the career head of the White House
  Travel Office, who was fired, along with six other career
  staffers, to make way for Clinton cronies in Travelgate. The
  White House then brought in the FBI to justify the firing,
  and Dale was hit with criminal charges that wrecked his life
  for two years. A jury cleared him in just two hours.

  E is for Mike Espy, the former agriculture secretary who was
  forced out over charges that he got gifts and favors from
  Arkansas-based Tyson foods, whose owners were longtime
  Clinton backers. A special counsel has brought several
  indictments, though not against Espy.

  F is for Filegate, the improper White House rummaging
  through 900 FBI files on Republican officials in the Bush
  and Reagan administrations. The White House says it was an
  innocent snafu. Republicans suspect an enemies list.
  Whitewater independent counsel Ken Starr and several
  congressional committees are probing.

  G is for Golfgate, ex-White House aide David Watkins'
  improper use of presidential helicopters for a personal golf
  outing. He was forced to resign. In the 1992 presidential
  campaign, Clinton aides tried to use taxpayer funds to help
  settle a sexual harassment case filed by a fellow campaign
  worker against Watkins.

  H is for Hillary Clinton, whose role has been questioned in
  Filegate, Travelgate, Billing-gate, Whitewater and Castle
  Grande. She denies any wrongdoing. H is also for Hubbell, in
  jail after pleading guilty to bilking law clients on charges
  brought by Whitewater independent counsel Starr. Hubbell was
  previously the associate attorney general, the No. 3 Justice
  Department office.

  I is for Indonesiagate, featuring the Lippo group, a firm
  with long-standing ties to Bill Clinton, Clinton cronies and
  Arkansas. Republicans want to know why an Indonesian couple
  -- of apparently modest means -- with ties to Lippo gave
  $452,000 to the Democratic National Committee and what the
  firm may have gotten in return. Lippo also hired Hubbell, at
  a reported fee of $250,000, for the five months between when
  he left the White House and went to jail

  J is for Paula Jones, who accuses President Clinton of
  sexual harassment, saying he dropped his pants and asked for
  oral sex in an Arkansas hotel room while he was governor and
  she was a state employee. The U.S. Supreme Court will rule
  this fall on whether her case must wait until after Clinton
  leaves office, as he demands.

  K is William Kennedy, another ex-Hillary Clinton law partner
  who became a White House lawyer and was forced to resign
  after concealing his failure to pay nanny taxes. He was
  reprimanded for his role in Travelgate.

  L is for Craig Livingstone, the ex-bar bouncer with a
  history of drug use who was head of White House security.
  Two FBI agents say it was Hillary Clinton who demanded his
  hiring, which she denies. Disgraced Clinton political guru
  Dick Morris' hooker pal, Sherry Rowlands, claims Morris told
  her a "paranoid" Hillary Clinton was behind Filegate. He
  says he only told her that's what polls show.

  M is for Jim and Susan McDougal, the Clintons' Whitewater
  partners, both of whom have been convicted of fraud. Jim
  McDougal is said to be helping Whitewater independent
  counsel Starr. Susan McDougal is in jail for refusing to say
  whether President Clinton lied when he denied knowing about
  an illegal $300,000 loan to bail out Whitewater. The loan
  wasn't repaid, and taxpayers were left holding the bag. M
  also is for disgraced Clinton political guru Dick Morris.

  N is for Bernard Nussbaum, the former White House lawyer who
  barred federal investigators from searching Vince Foster's
  office after Foster's death. Nussbaum also withheld Foster's
  diary on Travelgate problems from federal probers for more
  than a year. Nussbaum was forced to resign for botching
  damage-control efforts.

  O is for Energy Secretary Hazel O'Leary, the frequent flier
  who drew up an enemies' list of reporters, hired an image
  consultant at taxpayer expense, and has run up huge tabs on
  overseas trips.

  P is for pardons, which President Clinton has refused to
  rule out for individuals like Susan McDougal who potentially
  could provide evidence against him. P is also for White
  House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta, expected to leave in a
  second Clinton term -- with the prospect that his deputy,
  Harold Ickes, could replace him. Senate Republicans want
  perjury charges brought against Ickes for his answers on
  Whitewater damage control.

  Q is for all the questions -- unanswered -- on Whitewater,
  Filegate, Travelgate, Cattlegate and Billing-gate.

  R is for Sherry Rowlands, the $200-an hour hooker who
  revealed her ongoing affair with Clinton political guru Dick
  Morris, the author of Clinton's family-values strategy,
  forcing Morris to resign. R also is for Rose Law Firm, where
  Hillary Clinton, Vince Foster, Webster Hubbell and William
  Kennedy were partners, as was Joseph Giroir, a key figure in
  the Lippo group.

  S is for Kenneth Starr, the Whitewater independent counsel
  probing Filegate, Travelgate and Vince Foster's death. He
  has won 15 convictions or guilty pleas, including both
  McDougals and former Arkansas Gov. Jim Guy Tucker, who was
  forced to resign. Starr says his probes are active and
  ongoing, and there is widespread speculation he will have
  more indictments after the election, possibly including one
  of Hillary Clinton.

  T is for Travelgate, the Clintons' firing of career travel
  staffers like Billy Dale to make way for Clinton cronies.
  White House memos say Hillary Clinton was behind the firings
  -- she denies it -- and that she was spurred on by Clinton
  Hollywood pal Harry Thomason, who was seeking a piece of the
  lucrative White House charter business.

  U is for undue influence and the question of whether that is
  what Lippo was seeking through megabucks contributions to
  Democrats. Lippo has close ties to Indonesia's brutal
  dictatorship, responsible for near-genocide in East Timor,
  which it occupied two decades ago.

  V is for Vince Foster, the former Hillary Clinton law
  partner who became a White House lawyer and was found dead,
  an apparent suicide with a gunshot wound to the head. He
  apparently was a central figure in Travelgate and Filegate
  and handled Whitewater matters for the Clintons. Starr is
  examining his death and has yet to confirm former prober Bob
  Fiske's conclusion that it was a suicide in the park where
  Foster was found.

  W is for Whitewater, the Arkansas land deal that started it
  all, with questions about whether the Clintons improperly
  benefited from funds from Jim McDougal's Madison Guarantee
  savings-and-loan, which went belly up, costing taxpayers an
  estimated $60 million.

  X is for the Xeroxed copy of Hillary Clinton's law billing
  records that were found in the White House book room, two
  years after they were first sought. The pages had Mrs.
  Clinton's fingerprints around the section on Castle Grande
  -- there were red ink notations in the late Vince Foster's
  handwriting.

  Y is for the young White House aides who were hired by the
  Clinton administration despite FBI background checks that
  found "recent" use of hard drugs like cocaine, crack and
  hallucinogens.

  Z is for zero -- the amount of money the Clintons had at
  risk in Whitewater, even though they were equal partners
  with the McDougals. -- By Deborah Orin and Thomas Galvin
  ----------------------------------------------

              Copyright ?1996, N.Y.P. Holdings Inc.

[quote]
If the right really wants to stay in office, better hope Bush doesn’t get an anti-abortion justice on the Supreme Court. If Roe v. Wade were to be overturned I think the Right would awake a sleeping giant. Many right of center won’t admit it, but they want their daughter to be able to terminate a pregnancy if some pimply faced pinky commie knocks her up. I’ve know many people who personally said they would NEVER get an abortion, until they got knocked up at a bad time or by the wrong guy.[/quote]

That was one of the dumbest paragraphs ever written on this site. If Rowe v. Wade was overturned, it would become a state by state issue. If most people wanted abortion to be legal, then it would remain legal. No harm, no foul. If most people don’t want abortion to be legal, then Bush would have appointed someone who spoke for the people.

[quote]doogie wrote:
chadman wrote:

It would be a bit more exciting if W. or Cheney had gotten a blow job in the Oval Office, but to think it’s not news is ridiculous.

Surely you meant to say, “It would be more exciting if the President or Vice-President committed perjury”, right?

Even if this fades away, W., Cheney, Frist, DeLay, et al are doing plenty of other crap to make people think again about voting Republican in the near future.

People don’t pay attention to things like this. If the did, Clinton would have made sure no Democrat was ever elected again.

The A To Z Of Clinton Scandals

           ...It's The Alphabet Of Ethics -- Stupid!

  Whitewatergate, travelgate, cattlegate and now
  Indonesiagate...there seem to be more gates in the Clinton
  White House than on the barns of America.

  So just in case you've lost track of the scandals that have
  hit this current White House the Post's DEBORAH ORIN and
  THOMAS GALVIN have pieced together your cut-out-and-keep
  guide A to Z of Clinton scandals.....

  A is for Arkansas, where Bill Clinton got his political
  start, where Hillary Rodham Clinton worked at the Rose Law
  Firm, and where Whitewater began as a land deal between the
  Clintons and Jim and Susan McDougal.

  B is for Billing-gate, Hillary Clinton's missing law-billing
  records. Those records -- which raise questions about Mrs.
  Clinton's role in the Castle Grande deal -- were subpoenaed
  in 1994. They were missing until early 1996, when they
  turned up in a White House room next to her office. She says
  she doesn't know how they got there.

  C is for Cattlegate, Hillary Clinton's mysterious ability to
  turn a $1,000 investment into a $100,000 profit on cattle
  futures, a feat experts say was virtually impossible in
  normal trading. C is also for Castle Grande, a real-estate
  scheme that federal regulators say was a sham. A federal
  inspector general's report found Hillary Clinton drew up the
  legal papers that were used to improperly funnel hundreds of
  thousands of dollars to Seth Ward, father-in-law of her
  ex-law partner Webster Hubbell.

  D is for Billy Dale, the career head of the White House
  Travel Office, who was fired, along with six other career
  staffers, to make way for Clinton cronies in Travelgate. The
  White House then brought in the FBI to justify the firing,
  and Dale was hit with criminal charges that wrecked his life
  for two years. A jury cleared him in just two hours.

  E is for Mike Espy, the former agriculture secretary who was
  forced out over charges that he got gifts and favors from
  Arkansas-based Tyson foods, whose owners were longtime
  Clinton backers. A special counsel has brought several
  indictments, though not against Espy.

  F is for Filegate, the improper White House rummaging
  through 900 FBI files on Republican officials in the Bush
  and Reagan administrations. The White House says it was an
  innocent snafu. Republicans suspect an enemies list.
  Whitewater independent counsel Ken Starr and several
  congressional committees are probing.

  G is for Golfgate, ex-White House aide David Watkins'
  improper use of presidential helicopters for a personal golf
  outing. He was forced to resign. In the 1992 presidential
  campaign, Clinton aides tried to use taxpayer funds to help
  settle a sexual harassment case filed by a fellow campaign
  worker against Watkins.

  H is for Hillary Clinton, whose role has been questioned in
  Filegate, Travelgate, Billing-gate, Whitewater and Castle
  Grande. She denies any wrongdoing. H is also for Hubbell, in
  jail after pleading guilty to bilking law clients on charges
  brought by Whitewater independent counsel Starr. Hubbell was
  previously the associate attorney general, the No. 3 Justice
  Department office.

  I is for Indonesiagate, featuring the Lippo group, a firm
  with long-standing ties to Bill Clinton, Clinton cronies and
  Arkansas. Republicans want to know why an Indonesian couple
  -- of apparently modest means -- with ties to Lippo gave
  $452,000 to the Democratic National Committee and what the
  firm may have gotten in return. Lippo also hired Hubbell, at
  a reported fee of $250,000, for the five months between when
  he left the White House and went to jail

  J is for Paula Jones, who accuses President Clinton of
  sexual harassment, saying he dropped his pants and asked for
  oral sex in an Arkansas hotel room while he was governor and
  she was a state employee. The U.S. Supreme Court will rule
  this fall on whether her case must wait until after Clinton
  leaves office, as he demands.

  K is William Kennedy, another ex-Hillary Clinton law partner
  who became a White House lawyer and was forced to resign
  after concealing his failure to pay nanny taxes. He was
  reprimanded for his role in Travelgate.

  L is for Craig Livingstone, the ex-bar bouncer with a
  history of drug use who was head of White House security.
  Two FBI agents say it was Hillary Clinton who demanded his
  hiring, which she denies. Disgraced Clinton political guru
  Dick Morris' hooker pal, Sherry Rowlands, claims Morris told
  her a "paranoid" Hillary Clinton was behind Filegate. He
  says he only told her that's what polls show.

  M is for Jim and Susan McDougal, the Clintons' Whitewater
  partners, both of whom have been convicted of fraud. Jim
  McDougal is said to be helping Whitewater independent
  counsel Starr. Susan McDougal is in jail for refusing to say
  whether President Clinton lied when he denied knowing about
  an illegal $300,000 loan to bail out Whitewater. The loan
  wasn't repaid, and taxpayers were left holding the bag. M
  also is for disgraced Clinton political guru Dick Morris.

  N is for Bernard Nussbaum, the former White House lawyer who
  barred federal investigators from searching Vince Foster's
  office after Foster's death. Nussbaum also withheld Foster's
  diary on Travelgate problems from federal probers for more
  than a year. Nussbaum was forced to resign for botching
  damage-control efforts.

  O is for Energy Secretary Hazel O'Leary, the frequent flier
  who drew up an enemies' list of reporters, hired an image
  consultant at taxpayer expense, and has run up huge tabs on
  overseas trips.

  P is for pardons, which President Clinton has refused to
  rule out for individuals like Susan McDougal who potentially
  could provide evidence against him. P is also for White
  House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta, expected to leave in a
  second Clinton term -- with the prospect that his deputy,
  Harold Ickes, could replace him. Senate Republicans want
  perjury charges brought against Ickes for his answers on
  Whitewater damage control.

  Q is for all the questions -- unanswered -- on Whitewater,
  Filegate, Travelgate, Cattlegate and Billing-gate.

  R is for Sherry Rowlands, the $200-an hour hooker who
  revealed her ongoing affair with Clinton political guru Dick
  Morris, the author of Clinton's family-values strategy,
  forcing Morris to resign. R also is for Rose Law Firm, where
  Hillary Clinton, Vince Foster, Webster Hubbell and William
  Kennedy were partners, as was Joseph Giroir, a key figure in
  the Lippo group.

  S is for Kenneth Starr, the Whitewater independent counsel
  probing Filegate, Travelgate and Vince Foster's death. He
  has won 15 convictions or guilty pleas, including both
  McDougals and former Arkansas Gov. Jim Guy Tucker, who was
  forced to resign. Starr says his probes are active and
  ongoing, and there is widespread speculation he will have
  more indictments after the election, possibly including one
  of Hillary Clinton.

  T is for Travelgate, the Clintons' firing of career travel
  staffers like Billy Dale to make way for Clinton cronies.
  White House memos say Hillary Clinton was behind the firings
  -- she denies it -- and that she was spurred on by Clinton
  Hollywood pal Harry Thomason, who was seeking a piece of the
  lucrative White House charter business.

  U is for undue influence and the question of whether that is
  what Lippo was seeking through megabucks contributions to
  Democrats. Lippo has close ties to Indonesia's brutal
  dictatorship, responsible for near-genocide in East Timor,
  which it occupied two decades ago.

  V is for Vince Foster, the former Hillary Clinton law
  partner who became a White House lawyer and was found dead,
  an apparent suicide with a gunshot wound to the head. He
  apparently was a central figure in Travelgate and Filegate
  and handled Whitewater matters for the Clintons. Starr is
  examining his death and has yet to confirm former prober Bob
  Fiske's conclusion that it was a suicide in the park where
  Foster was found.

  W is for Whitewater, the Arkansas land deal that started it
  all, with questions about whether the Clintons improperly
  benefited from funds from Jim McDougal's Madison Guarantee
  savings-and-loan, which went belly up, costing taxpayers an
  estimated $60 million.

  X is for the Xeroxed copy of Hillary Clinton's law billing
  records that were found in the White House book room, two
  years after they were first sought. The pages had Mrs.
  Clinton's fingerprints around the section on Castle Grande
  -- there were red ink notations in the late Vince Foster's
  handwriting.

  Y is for the young White House aides who were hired by the
  Clinton administration despite FBI background checks that
  found "recent" use of hard drugs like cocaine, crack and
  hallucinogens.

  Z is for zero -- the amount of money the Clintons had at
  risk in Whitewater, even though they were equal partners
  with the McDougals. -- By Deborah Orin and Thomas Galvin
  ----------------------------------------------

              Copyright ?1996, N.Y.P. Holdings Inc.

If the right really wants to stay in office, better hope Bush doesn’t get an anti-abortion justice on the Supreme Court. If Roe v. Wade were to be overturned I think the Right would awake a sleeping giant. Many right of center won’t admit it, but they want their daughter to be able to terminate a pregnancy if some pimply faced pinky commie knocks her up. I’ve know many people who personally said they would NEVER get an abortion, until they got knocked up at a bad time or by the wrong guy.

That was one of the dumbest paragraphs ever written on this site. If Rowe v. Wade was overturned, it would become a state by state issue. If most people wanted abortion to be legal, then it would remain legal. No harm, no foul. If most people don’t want abortion to be legal, then Bush would have appointed someone who spoke for the people.

[/quote]

Doogie,

Excellent tour through Clinton history. I still think a blowjob in the White House would make things more interesting. Did I ever say Clinton or his cronies were saints? Hell no. If you’ve read some of my other posts, I didn’t even vote for the guy for his second term. Without ANY scandals, I would still think that W., Cheney et al were arrogant assholes who will do whatever it takes to push their agenda of corporate greed, environmental abuse and cowboy diplomacy.

Regarding your opinion of my thoughts on Roe v. Wade. Fuck you. So what if it’s a state by state issue? Do you think the Christian movement is going to be happy just having Roe v. Wade overturned, or do you think they will try to, state by state, get abortion made illegal. You made my point exactly you dildo. Most people do want abortion kept legal, and getting them out to the polls in a state by state basis to defend that right will also mean more votes for the democrats who support that right. Much like the anti-gay marriage issues on so many state ballots in the past election helped to mobilize the Republican base.

Don’t be such a myopic arrogant shithead.

[quote]chadman wrote:

Doogie,

Excellent tour through Clinton history. I still think a blowjob in the White House would make things more interesting. Did I ever say Clinton or his cronies were saints? Hell no. If you’ve read some of my other posts, I didn’t even vote for the guy for his second term. Without ANY scandals, I would still think that W., Cheney et al were arrogant assholes who will do whatever it takes to push their agenda of corporate greed, environmental abuse and cowboy diplomacy.[/quote]

I don’t care what you think. What you wrote was:

[quote]
Even if this fades away, W., Cheney, Frist, DeLay, et al are doing plenty of other crap to make people think again about voting Republican in the near future.[/quote]

I wasn’t diverting attention to Clinton, saying he was worse. I was just pointing out that people don’t pay attention to shit like this. That summary I posted above didn’t even deal with Ruby Ridge or the slaughter of the people in Waco. If Clinton could get re-elected after all of the above, you’d have to be a moron to think this “scandal” is going to affect the Republican party as a whole.

[quote]Regarding your opinion of my thoughts on Roe v. Wade. Fuck you. So what if it’s a state by state issue? Do you think the Christian movement is going to be happy just having Roe v. Wade overturned, or do you think they will try to, state by state, get abortion made illegal. You made my point exactly you dildo. Most people do want abortion kept legal, and getting them out to the polls in a state by state basis to defend that right will also mean more votes for the democrats who support that right. Much like the anti-gay marriage issues on so many state ballots in the past election helped to mobilize the Republican base.

Don’t be such a myopic arrogant shithead.[/quote]

For now this is all just mental masturbation, but someday you will see where you went wrong in your analysis.

The truth is there are a lot more liberals who pretend to be “pro-choice” than “right of center” people who “won’t admit it, but they want their daughter to be able to terminate a pregnancy if some pimply faced pinky commie knocks her up”.

The liberals know in their heart of hearts that abortion is murder. College guys and castrated men pretend to be pro-choice in the hopes of someday getting in the panties of some hairy-armpitted NOW member, but they won’t put the issue above national security. Most women take a pro-choice stand purely because they don’t like the idea of being controlled by men, not because they think abortion is morally right.

In the end, abortion is not an issue the left will ever really rally over.

Christian conservatives (a group to which I definitely do not belong)think their everlasting soul is on the line when they enter the ballot box. That is a completely different mentallity.

[quote]doogie wrote:
The liberals know in their heart of hearts that abortion is murder. College guys and castrated men pretend to be pro-choice in the hopes of someday getting in the panties of some hairy-armpitted NOW member, but they won’t put the issue above national security. Most women take a pro-choice stand purely because they don’t like the idea of being controlled by men, not because they think abortion is morally right.

In the end, abortion is not an issue the left will ever really rally over.

Christian conservatives (a group to which I definitely do not belong)think their everlasting soul is on the line when they enter the ballot box. That is a completely different mentallity.
[/quote]

This is the best part of this thread, and it’s not even on topic.

Vroom, you owe me an hour of my life back.

I saw how big this thread was getting, and decided that it might be worth reading.

YAWN

This has got to be the most boring “scandal” ever. No BJ’s, no DNA evidence on blue dresses, no cigar-play… dammit, it’s all I can do to stay awake through this senseless crap.

Let me get this straight:
Some fool named “Scooter” (holy shit) maybe said something about somebody who might be undercover CIA to somebody else?

Where’s the tanks spewing fire into buildings? Where’s the stormtroopers poking assault rifles into illegal immigrant children’s faces? WHERE’S THE HAND JOBS GIVEN BY INTERNS DURING PHONE CALLS TO OTHER WORLD LEADERS??

Man, Clinton had it all. He knew what the hell he was doing. This Bush guy is lamer than lame. I guarantee that Bush has never had sex in the oval office.

Vote democrat in '08!! If it’s Hillary, I’ll take one for the team and do her in the oval office just to break this horrific “scandal ennui” we’ve been suffering ever since Bush got elected.

I better get some nice gifts out of it though. I ain’t boinking that bitch for free.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
This obviously goes to a slight difference in opinion between Dems and Republicans surrounding the “16 words,” which we’ve discussed enough and I don’t want to rehash."[/quote]

That’s so last year, BB. The facts are coming home to roost, slowly but surely. The story of our dysfunctional rush to war and what was behind it is moving out of the realm of opinion and into the realm of fact. Aluminum tubes, Downing St memo, and all the rest of it. The picture is filling in. And it will continue to fill in, from a variety of sources, over the next few months.

And with a little luck, they’ll have Scooter and his boss on the barbie in time for the 2006 elections.

And even if not, one thing’s for sure: this particular war isn’t going away anytime soon. So neither is the question “How the hell did we get into this mess?”

Hey, the weekend is over and we can start to get some current source news again:

Democrat Urges Rove To Quit Over CIA Leak
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051031/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_investigation

Okay, sure, nobody will go for that, but more interesting are republican calls for new blood in the White House.

Here’s a little reminder why this is going to be worried at for eons…

[i]Reid said Rove should resign or be fired for even discussing Plame. He recalled that Bush once said he would fire anyone involved in the leak, although Bush later amended that standard to say he would fire anyone convicted of a crime.

“If he’s a man of his word, Rove should be history,” Reid said on CNN’s “Late Edition.”[/i]

[quote]doogie wrote:
chadman wrote:

Doogie,

Excellent tour through Clinton history. I still think a blowjob in the White House would make things more interesting. Did I ever say Clinton or his cronies were saints? Hell no. If you’ve read some of my other posts, I didn’t even vote for the guy for his second term. Without ANY scandals, I would still think that W., Cheney et al were arrogant assholes who will do whatever it takes to push their agenda of corporate greed, environmental abuse and cowboy diplomacy.

I don’t care what you think. What you wrote was:

Even if this fades away, W., Cheney, Frist, DeLay, et al are doing plenty of other crap to make people think again about voting Republican in the near future.

I wasn’t diverting attention to Clinton, saying he was worse. I was just pointing out that people don’t pay attention to shit like this. That summary I posted above didn’t even deal with Ruby Ridge or the slaughter of the people in Waco. If Clinton could get re-elected after all of the above, you’d have to be a moron to think this “scandal” is going to affect the Republican party as a whole.

Regarding your opinion of my thoughts on Roe v. Wade. Fuck you. So what if it’s a state by state issue? Do you think the Christian movement is going to be happy just having Roe v. Wade overturned, or do you think they will try to, state by state, get abortion made illegal. You made my point exactly you dildo. Most people do want abortion kept legal, and getting them out to the polls in a state by state basis to defend that right will also mean more votes for the democrats who support that right. Much like the anti-gay marriage issues on so many state ballots in the past election helped to mobilize the Republican base.

Don’t be such a myopic arrogant shithead.

For now this is all just mental masturbation, but someday you will see where you went wrong in your analysis.

The truth is there are a lot more liberals who pretend to be “pro-choice” than “right of center” people who “won’t admit it, but they want their daughter to be able to terminate a pregnancy if some pimply faced pinky commie knocks her up”.

The liberals know in their heart of hearts that abortion is murder. College guys and castrated men pretend to be pro-choice in the hopes of someday getting in the panties of some hairy-armpitted NOW member, but they won’t put the issue above national security. Most women take a pro-choice stand purely because they don’t like the idea of being controlled by men, not because they think abortion is morally right.

In the end, abortion is not an issue the left will ever really rally over.

Christian conservatives (a group to which I definitely do not belong)think their everlasting soul is on the line when they enter the ballot box. That is a completely different mentallity.

[/quote]

Clinton was worse?

How many unnecassary wars did he start?

[quote]harris447 wrote:

Clinton was worse?

How many unnecassary wars did he start?

[/quote]

If Clinton had done his job better, perhaps we could have avoided this war.

[quote]harris447 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Wow. Perjury. Lying under oath.

Now why were the conservatives all pissed off at Clinton again?

Clinton himself lied under oath. He was indicted. The Commander In Chief - indicted for perjury.

All you have to crow about here is the Veep’s advisor.

Hardly the same thing.

But I don’t think you hear anyone saying to let him off the hook. If Libby is actually guilty of a crime - then he should be punished. And that is way different than the Left making excuses for Clinton and his band of muderous thieves.

Who, exactly, did Clinton murder? Was it upwards to 35,000 Iraqis and 2,000 American troops?

Oh, no. That was your guy.

Shithead.[/quote]

That is uncalled for.

When did Bush murder someone?

Bush is ultimately responsible but I don’t see where you get this ‘murder’ charge.

Be careful you don’t start to sound like the Freeptard’s that claim the Clinton’s killed Vince Foster.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Who, exactly, did Clinton murder? Was it upwards to 35,000 Iraqis and 2,000 American troops?

Oh, no. That was your guy.

Shithead.

Maybe you should ask Vince Foster, or perhaps Ron Brown. That’s right - you can’t.

Nice try with the ABB “Bush lied people died” bullshit.

You are an embarassment.[/quote]

Stop being a Freeper.

Rove did not get indicted last week because he is ‘cooperating’ with Fitz.

Rove is ‘Official A’ named in Libby’s indictment.

The next grand jury will be assemble to investigate this matter further at the request of the CIA.

This is not going away and Fitz is setting up camp in D.C.

Not good.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Stop being a Freeper.

[/quote]

Read all of my posts before passing your judgement.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Stop being a Freeper.

Read all of my posts before passing your judgement.[/quote]

You invoked Vince Foster for F sake.

The only people who do that are Freepers.