Revisiting the Alleged Leak

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Read what I wrote. I called his cronies a band of murderous thieves. Not Clinton. I don’t think Clinton killed anyone, but I do think he knows how and why some folks met untimely deaths. But I never accused Clinton of murder.

I think that when you said “Clinton AND his band of murderous thieves” people took it as you calling Clinton a murderous thief along with the rest of his crew. BTW, by your own statement you are implying that Clinton has knowledge of some folks meeting an untimely death. That would make Clinton an accessory to murder. So, while you are not accusing him of murder, but you are accussing him of being an accessory. Just pointing that out.[/quote]

Thanks for the backup Al. That’s exactly the way I took it!

That would be why I said it back to you… geez Rainjack, sometimes I don’t think you are paying any attention at all.

Are you sure you don’t have Alzheimers or perhaps Senile Dementia?

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Read what I wrote. I called his cronies a band of murderous thieves. Not Clinton. I don’t think Clinton killed anyone, but I do think he knows how and why some folks met untimely deaths. But I never accused Clinton of murder.

I think that when you said “Clinton AND his band of murderous thieves” people took it as you calling Clinton a murderous thief along with the rest of his crew. BTW, by your own statement you are implying that Clinton has knowledge of some folks meeting an untimely death. That would make Clinton an accessory to murder. So, while you are not accusing him of murder, but you are accussing him of being an accessory. Just pointing that out.[/quote]

You have a point. I guess I should restate what I was saying.

When I said “band of murderous thieves” - I was trying to convey the contempt with which I viewed them. Not that they actually committed murder. I do think, however, that the Clinton - both Slick and Cankles - know more about the truth than they are admitting. IF Brown and Foster were murdered and the Clintons knew about it - then yes, they are accessories. BUT - I have no proof. It is mere speculation.

I hope that clears things up.

[quote]vroom wrote:
THAT’S WHAT I JUST SAID!!!

That would be why I said it back to you… geez Rainjack, sometimes I don’t think you are paying any attention at all.

Are you sure you don’t have …Senile Dementia?[/quote]

My sex life is none of your damn business.

[quote]chadman wrote:
If it were not for Bush and his gang’s intense push for us to get into this war at all costs, these people would not be dead now. That does make him a killer in my book.

[/quote]

Then we disagree strongly.

I am glad we are over there. I am glad that Hussein will soon stand trial for his crimes. I view the 2000 dead in Iraq as heroes sacrificing their lives for our freedom - not murder victims.

I think people with attitudes like yours are traitors. TO piss on the bravery of our fighting men and women in order to justify your hatred of Bush is sickening.

Bush & no Iraq =LAME DUCK ,QUACK QUACK!!!

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

Nah. Let’s point out how the indictments aren’t in any way related to national security issues.

vroom wrote:

Boston, was this your mantra when Clinton was being impeached? Were you loudly proclaiming that the Clinton issue was an unimportant waste of time?

Honestly, if so, then I won’t really complain about your stance. Otherwise, your stance is completely hypocritical. Which is it?[/quote]

When Clinton was impeached over his perjury, I thought it was important because you had the Chief Executive, who is technically the head of all federal law enforcement, lying under oath in a trial – basically undercutting our judicial system.

Note two things: 1) The impeachment would have removed Clinton from office; Libby resigned his position immediately upon his indictment; and 2) Clinton was immune from prosecution while he held his office.

Now, they’re obviously not in the same positions – was it more or less worrisome that an elected official or a bureaucrat was lying under oath? That someone with complete immunity via his office was lying under oath or someone subject to the legal reprecussions of his actions?

Given that Libby resigned but Clinton stayed in office, is it more or less problematic to think someone should be removed from his position for committing perjury?

Obvsiously, I think there are a few distinctions to be made…

BTW, I’m not loudly complaining that it’s an unimportant waste of time. I’m saying it has nothing to do with national security, which is the lynchpin of a bunch of other claims that had been tossed at the administration, and at both of Rove and Libby.

I specifically said I thought perjury was a big deal. But it’s still not related to national security.

This is a great outcome for Bush. His opponents were hoping beyond hope that they had a link to an actual crime that played a part in the case made for war. Instead they get the VP’s man for perjury that does not involve the Plame leak.

As it stands now, their argument is no stronger than before. Essentially, the Republicans are guilty of playing hardball politics by effectively using the media to support their positions, even if those positions were wrong. I can see why this would aggravate administration opponents, and perhaps they will be able to use this situation to their advantage in their arguments, but as it stands Bush has to be relieved by this result.

[quote]Are you sure you don’t have …Senile Dementia?

My sex life is none of your damn business.[/quote]

Twisting the meaning of my words as usual I see… ahahahahaha!

[quote]vroom wrote:
Are you sure you don’t have …Senile Dementia?

My sex life is none of your damn business.

Twisting the meaning of my words as usual I see… ahahahahaha![/quote]

But you laughed. I know you did.

[quote]jayhawk1 wrote:
This is a great outcome for Bush. His opponents were hoping beyond hope that they had a link to an actual crime that played a part in the case made for war. Instead they get the VP’s man for perjury that does not involve the Plame leak.

As it stands now, their argument is no stronger than before. Essentially, the Republicans are guilty of playing hardball politics by effectively using the media to support their positions, even if those positions were wrong. I can see why this would aggravate administration opponents, and perhaps they will be able to use this situation to their advantage in their arguments, but as it stands Bush has to be relieved by this result.[/quote]

I nominate this for Post of the Month. Great job.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
chadman wrote:
If it were not for Bush and his gang’s intense push for us to get into this war at all costs, these people would not be dead now. That does make him a killer in my book.

Then we disagree strongly.

I am glad we are over there. I am glad that Hussein will soon stand trial for his crimes. I view the 2000 dead in Iraq as heroes sacrificing their lives for our freedom - not murder victims.

I think people with attitudes like yours are traitors. TO piss on the bravery of our fighting men and women in order to justify your hatred of Bush is sickening.

[/quote]

You are indeed an ignorant fuck. How dare you suggest that I am pissing on the bravery of our soldiers by disagreeing with them being sent there in the first place. Are you suggesting I think it is a good thing that they are being killed? Just because I hold Bush accountable for putting them in harms way in no way demeans my respect for them putting their lives on the line.

It’s attitudes like yours that have this country in the mess that it’s in. You are the one with hatred in your heart. Hatred for anything not WASPy and non-gay. Hatred for anyone who could possibly disagree with the holy conservative movement. Go fuck yourself!

Just because you support Bush doesn’t mean you are any more patriotic than I am. In fact, it might mean you are less patriotic since his administration has been bad for this country. You then are the traitorous prick!

[quote]chadman wrote:

You are indeed an ignorant fuck. How dare you suggest that I am pissing on the bravery of our soldiers by disagreeing with them being sent there in the first place. Are you suggesting I think it is a good thing that they are being killed? Just because I hold Bush accountable for putting them in harms way in no way demeans my respect for them putting their lives on the line.[/quote]

Ignorant fuck? I’m sure you could be a tad more creative if you could just rein in that rage you have for those that dare disagree with you.

The whole, “I support the soldiers but not the war” is a load of horse shit that I refuse to buy into. It is either one way or the other. It is a gutless and cowardly stance that is taken by those chicken shits that are affraid to say what they really mean.

I would rather be an ignorant fuck than a mousey coward any day of the week.

[quote]
It’s attitudes like yours that have this country in the mess that it’s in. You are the one with hatred in your heart. Hatred for anything not WASPy and non-gay. Hatred for anyone who could possibly disagree with the holy conservative movement. Go fuck yourself![/quote]

What mess are we in? Please - I would like to know. We are in a war that is not progressing at video game type speed, and that qualifies as a mess? Just because you are a miserable, bitter s.o.b. doesn’t mean that we are in a mess. It means that YOU are in a mess.

I don’t hate. You are mistaking my lack of patience with ignorance and cowardice as hatred - and you are wrong. I could give a shit if you agree with the conservative movement, or not. But that is hardly the same accusing the CIC of murder.

How has this admin been bad for the country? I never said I was more patriotic. Show me where I said that. It has nothing to so with pariotism. That is an over used word that has had its meaning bastardized to mean you should protest the war, or anything else that Bush stands for.

So which is it? Am I an ignorant fuck, or am I a traitorous prick? Make up your mind, sparky.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
chadman wrote:

You are indeed an ignorant fuck. How dare you suggest that I am pissing on the bravery of our soldiers by disagreeing with them being sent there in the first place. Are you suggesting I think it is a good thing that they are being killed? Just because I hold Bush accountable for putting them in harms way in no way demeans my respect for them putting their lives on the line.

Ignorant fuck? I’m sure you could be a tad more creative if you could just rein in that rage you have for those that dare disagree with you.[/quote]

Shine the mirror on yourself pal. You’ve shown more than your share of rage for those who disagree with your views. My rage is more directed at you specifically for calling me a traitor for not blindly following Bush’s call to war.

[quote]The whole, “I support the soldiers but not the war” is a load of horse shit that I refuse to buy into. It is either one way or the other. It is a gutless and cowardly stance that is taken by those chicken shits that are affraid to say what they really mean.

I would rather be an ignorant fuck than a mousey coward any day of the week.[/quote]

How is it cowardly to be against the war in Iraq? Going to war is not an inherently brave thing either. You can definitely support the soldiers without supporting the war. Is it better to send them off to get killed in a trumped up war? Is it better to cut their benefits while they are fighting said war? How am I a chickenshit and just what to you think I’m afraid to say?

[quote]It’s attitudes like yours that have this country in the mess that it’s in. You are the one with hatred in your heart. Hatred for anything not WASPy and non-gay. Hatred for anyone who could possibly disagree with the holy conservative movement. Go fuck yourself!

What mess are we in? Please - I would like to know. We are in a war that is not progressing at video game type speed, and that qualifies as a mess? Just because you are a miserable, bitter s.o.b. doesn’t mean that we are in a mess. It means that YOU are in a mess.[/quote]

Are you blind? Yes, the war is a mess. Our domestic situation is no picnic. Jobs are fleeing overseas. Interest rates are rising. Average people won’t be able to afford housing or healthcare or gas. Hatred for all things not straight, white and christian is on the rise, need I go on?

Perhaps “murder” was too strong a word, nonetheless, our troops are dying because Bush sent them to war under questionable pretenses with no sound strategy for what to do once the “mission” was “accomplished”.

[quote]Just because you support Bush doesn’t mean you are any more patriotic than I am. In fact, it might mean you are less patriotic since his administration has been bad for this country. You then are the traitorous prick!

How has this admin been bad for the country?[/quote] See above.

By stating that those of us against the war are traitors, you are inherently stating that you and your ilk are “patriots”, or whatever would you would use opposite "traitor. Your intent is implied, even if not explicitly stated.

All of the above? Why should I choose one when they both fit so well? ;-0

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
The indictment is out - Libby, on two counts of making false statements, two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/28/D8DH5FOG0.html

No one else, for anything. And no info on whether the grand jury has been extended either.

And nothing on any of the alleged crimes for which the special prosecutor was created. Nary a peep.[/quote]

After all that perjury, what did you expect? A successful investigation?

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
The indictment is out - Libby, on two counts of making false statements, two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/28/D8DH5FOG0.html

No one else, for anything. And no info on whether the grand jury has been extended either.

And nothing on any of the alleged crimes for which the special prosecutor was created. Nary a peep.

endgamer711 wrote:

After all that perjury, what did you expect? A successful investigation?[/quote]

Ahem. “All that perjury” apparently only applies to allegations over 2 statements by Scooter Libby. One would think that over the course of the two-year investigation the prosecutor may have been able to talk to a few other people – including the ones to whom whatever information he was investigating was actually leaked. So yeah, I would think he could have quite a “successful” investigation, if there was anything to find (by “successful” I assume you mean he uncovered the conspiracy by the cabal in the Administration to let loose with national-security secrets in order to discredit truth-teller and all around swell guy Joe Wilson).

A nice overview of where this stands, post-Scooter-indictment:

Maybe Libby Can Try An Insanity Defense

Here is the nine page press release ( http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/libby_pr_28102005.pdf ) which summarizes the twenty-two page indictment of Lewis Libby ( http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/libby_indictment_28102005.pdf ).

Some obvious puzzles remain:

Who was Novak’s source?

Was national security harmed by the leak of Ms. Plame’s identity?

Will there be other charges against other officials?

As to the indictment:

The charges against Libby with respect to Russert are gruesome - if Russert is to be believed (and Fitzgerald believed him), Libby simply invented a conversation in which Russert passed to Libby info about Wilson’s wife. I can’t imagine what Libby could have been thinking, and I wish I had been a bit more trusting of Tim’s bizarre denial.

The discrepancy between Libby and Cooper is not cavernous, but it is not good.

The Judy Miller story seems to be strangely incomplete - the June 23 conversation, which came as a late disclosure, is not mentioned here.

Finally, Libby’s general story - he learned about Plame from reporters - was daft. Libby had multiple conversations with government officials (State, CIA, the VP, Ari Fleischer) involving Plame. Did he think they would all forget when they talked to investigators? If I weren’t reading his testimony, I would not believe he had gone down this road.

A small part of Libby’s problem, I’ll bet, is that his misleading testimony, especially about Russert, forced Fitzgerald to waste a lot of time pursuing subpoenas against reporters.

I will also guess that Rove was caught in Libby’s tailwind - Libby’s story was so phony that problems with Rove’s story probably took on a more sinister tone than if they had ocurred in isolation.

Two asides:

However embarrassing ( JustOneMinute: Baby Steps Towards The Truth ) it might be, the NY Times may be forced to confront the fact that Nick Kristof is an important part of this story, since Fitzgerald essentially dates the beginning of this story to Kristof’s May 6 column ( Missing in Action: Truth ). The column was riddled with inaccuracies ( http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/348parxy.asp?pg=2 ) which Mr. Wilson has since disavowed - let’s see if the Times tackles this.

And, per the summary (p. 5), it will be a bit harder for Joe Wilson and his many defenders to sustain the notion that his wife was not involved with selecting him for this trip:

[i]...on or about June 11, 2003, Libby was informed by a senior officer of the CIA that Wilson?s wife was employed by the CIA and was believed to be responsible for sending Wilson on the trip.[/i]

IIRC, it appears that Libby told Ari Fleischer about Ms. Plame on July 7, which is the day that phone logs show Novak calling Ari. Surely that adds to the possibilty that Ari was Novak’s first source.

MORE: A chance to help, or hurt Libby’s case - from the indictment:

[i]On or about July 10, 2003, LIBBY spoke to NBC Washington Bureau Chief Tim
Russert to complain about press coverage of LIBBY by an MSNBC reporter. LIBBY did not discuss Wilson?s wife with Russert.[/i]

A Lexis-Nexis maven might be able to deduce the show that prompted Libby’s irate call. I think Russert said it was a “cable” news show when explaining his role to Brian Williams, which would match with the “MSNBC” in the indictment.

The point? Well, let’s see what we find. But if Libby called Russert to complain because he was panned for his role in the Wilson saga, it may be a bit more plausible that he and Russert discussed the Wilson trip. And that might be relevant in a he said/he said courtroom showdown.

Of course, if he was panned for his bad taste in cowboy hats, that could be a killer.

Look, if Libby is not insane (likely, actually) and if he turned down a plea deal (do we know that?), he must think he can defend this case. But how?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

BostonBarrister wrote:
The indictment is out - Libby, on two counts of making false statements, two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/28/D8DH5FOG0.html

No one else, for anything. And no info on whether the grand jury has been extended either.

And nothing on any of the alleged crimes for which the special prosecutor was created. Nary a peep.

endgamer711 wrote:

After all that perjury, what did you expect? A successful investigation?

Ahem. “All that perjury” apparently only applies to allegations over 2 statements by Scooter Libby. One would think that over the course of the two-year investigation the prosecutor may have been able to talk to a few other people – including the ones to whom whatever information he was investigating was actually leaked. So yeah, I would think he could have quite a “successful” investigation, if there was anything to find (by “successful” I assume you mean he uncovered the conspiracy by the cabal in the Administration to let loose with national-security secrets in order to discredit truth-teller and all around swell guy Joe Wilson).[/quote]

By successful, I mean one that arrives at the truth (or a decision that nothing can be proved) in a timely manner.

If the investigation took too long, you know who to blame, and it ain’t Fitzgerald.

Since you’re a lawyer, let me point out to you that these perjury charges (including the two others on false statemets) are only the ones Fitz feels he can prove at this point.

My guess is there was enough other lying that it will take a while to conclude this investigation.

The lack of other substantive charges at this point doesn’t say much to me. I’m just a voter, not a court of law. I use different rules of evidence. And you know, these bushies are pretty smart, I’m sure they woudn’t risk lying to a grand jury unless they thought letting the truth out was even worse.

In any case, the Grand Inquisitor says it isn’t over yet. That was probably the worst news the Bush administration got from Fitz today: it ain’t over yet. Fitz says he won’t extend the current grand jury, but he can still convene one later or use one that is already sitting.

So just compose yourself in patience, BB my old. We may yet hear that peep you’re waiting for.

In the meantime, anyone who strongly felt that the administration was lying its face off to stampede the nation into war can assure themselves of the facts of the matter.

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:

By successful, I mean one that arrives at the truth (or a decision that nothing can be proved) in a timely manner.

If the investigation took too long, you know who to blame, and it ain’t Fitzgerald.[/quote]

Well, I can at least agree that ol’ Scooter was A cause of the prolonged investigation.

But my point wasn’t to complain about the length, but rather to point out that Fitzgerald had been thorough, but hadn’t put together anything he thought worth charging other than the items against Libby.

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:

Since you’re a lawyer, let me point out to you that these perjury charges (including the two others on false statemets) are only the ones Fitz feels he can prove at this point.

My guess is there was enough other lying that it will take a while to conclude this investigation.[/quote]

I don’t agree on that point – unless we think Fitzgerald was lying. I’ll be more specific below.

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:

The lack of other substantive charges at this point doesn’t say much to me. I’m just a voter, not a court of law. I use different rules of evidence. And you know, these bushies are pretty smart, I’m sure they woudn’t risk lying to a grand jury unless they thought letting the truth out was even worse.[/quote]

Or if they (the Royal “they”, I guess, for ol’ Scooter) had some reason to think they had a defense. I’m interested to see how the actual trial on the perjury/obstruction charges plays out.

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:

In any case, the Grand Inquisitor says it isn’t over yet. That was probably the worst news the Bush administration got from Fitz today: it ain’t over yet. Fitz says he won’t extend the current grand jury, but he can still convene one later or use one that is already sitting.[/quote]

Ah, he did say that. But it was immediately followed by a second sentence, which I think is a lot more indicative of where we are. Allow me to introduce the entire quote, which was truncated in a lot of the news stories I saw:

“Is the investigation finished? It’s not over,” Fitzgerald said at a news conference. “But ? very rarely do you bring a charge in a case that’s going to be tried in which you ever end a grand jury investigation. I can tell you that the substantial bulk of the work of this investigation is concluded.”

The substantial bulk of the work of the investigation is concluded. He can call another grand jury if something else comes up, and it’s technically correct to say so, but he doesn’t have any leads he’s waiting to pursue.

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:

So just compose yourself in patience, BB my old. We may yet hear that peep you’re waiting for.

In the meantime, anyone who strongly felt that the administration was lying its face off to stampede the nation into war can assure themselves of the facts of the matter.[/quote]

I wouldn’t count on hearing a peep. We’ll see though – and rest assured that anything that might possibly be misconstrued into a peep will get broad and loud play.

As to assuring themselves of the facts, I surely hope they do – and hopefully let go of those strong feelings after a thoughtful analysis thereof…

For anybody on the list who’s a bit unclear on the dictates of Beltway Bushido, if you’re a highly placed administration official, the one thing that’s worse than being indicted for perjury, false statements, and obstruction of justice is …

Your boss getting indicted.