Revisiting the Alleged Leak

[quote]vroom wrote:
I can’t believe people think I’m the one making this into something it isn’t… what a farce. You should hear what is being said out in the real world or in the real world media – it would be much more upsetting to you than the stuff I say.

Trying to squelch and dicredit someone who is dissenting against the Bush march to war is exactly what this all points to. To try to say otherwise is pure head-in-the-sand-ism.

Here is a Yahoo news item on the indictments…

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051028/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_investigation

The grand jury indictment charged Libby, 55, with one count of obstruction of justice, two of perjury and two false statement counts. If convicted on all five, he could face as much as 30 years in prison and $1.25 million in fines.

The first thing that comes to mind for me is that this is very serious. Libby is now facing things that have jumped way outside the realm of the merely political. I’m not joking when I say that I hope he has a “get out of jail free” card.

The important part, to me, is digging out the truth of the matter, not throwing this guy behind bars forever. The truth does trump the other issues involved though.

So, to those who have been telling me there is nothing to talk about, that this is all pure conjecture, I’ll accept your apology any time. Actually, I don’t want it, but since Sassy is such a retard I just had to say it.

By the way, apparently the issue with Rove is not over, though indictments were not issued today. That seems somewhat strange, but it does bode ill and it is always possible for new information to become available in that respect.[/quote]

Oh, I’ve read the pages-long stories that were put on the wires within minutes of the announcements. Apparently they were expecting something much worse, but didn’t bother to edit out how “crippling” or whatever descriptive word they wished to use the indictments were for the Bush Administration.

Apparently they were expecting a Rove indictment on an underlying charge or something…

At any rate, for those who might think I’m full of it w/r/t media bias against Republicans, check out this blog entry, which compares coverage of the indictments of two cabinet-level secretaries in the Clinton Administration to what’s going on here with Scooter:

http://newsbusters.org/node/2548

[quote]harris447 wrote:
Who, exactly, did Clinton murder? Was it upwards to 35,000 Iraqis and 2,000 American troops?

Oh, no. That was your guy.

Shithead.

[/quote]

Maybe you should ask Vince Foster, or perhaps Ron Brown. That’s right - you can’t.

Nice try with the ABB “Bush lied people died” bullshit.

You are an embarassment.

[quote]I say it’s crap and that nothing more will come out of it except side charges. You call me a cheerleader. I reaffirm that this case will go nowhere. No laws have been broken. You call me a cheerleader.

And you still won’t concede Rove, you’ll throw out one last maybe/possibility for the rest of us to ponder.
You’re right, what could I have been thinking[/quote]

You call me a cheerleader, but I admit I don’t know, yet you “know” that no laws have been broken. How do you know that Madame Cheerleader? Were you present during discussions between Libby and Cheney and then subsequently between Libby and reporters? I know I wasn’t. How do you get this vast insight into what actually happened? I’m stuck with only conjecture… poor me, I don’t have the absolute knowledge of faith that you display.

As for Rove, I’m not the one who is throwing out the maybe. Maybe you should listen to what was actually said, instead of the fact that I repeated it. He is apparently still under investigation. I guess you can blame the prosecutor because he is obviously just a political hack out to get the Bush administration.

Boohoo.

The administration is fucking up so fast and furious these days that even cheerleaders like yourself can’t keep up with the required amount of spin. Blame me all you like, but I’m just a messenger.

Excuse me Mr Proof, but apparently unless you can prove it, that is pure conjecture and absolutely shameful.

You’ve said this yourself loudly and repeatedly over the last couple of days in regards to the Plame affair.

The fact that there were no indictments must in fact prove innocence according to Madame Cheerleader.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Who, exactly, did Clinton murder? Was it upwards to 35,000 Iraqis and 2,000 American troops?

Oh, no. That was your guy.

Shithead.

Maybe you should ask Vince Foster, or perhaps Ron Brown. That’s right - you can’t.

Nice try with the ABB “Bush lied people died” bullshit.

You are an embarassment.

[/quote]

When did Clinton get indicted for these murders? Where have I been? If he or his cronies did it, they should be strung up. Right next to Bush for getting 2000 of our servicemen and women killed in the line of duty for clusterfuck war that didn’t need to happen.

I find the current administration crimes far more serious than Whitewater and a blowjob.

[quote]mmg_4 wrote:
dude, i read a lot of your posts, and for someone who pretends to have great knowledge, you resort to name calling and insults more than anyone ive seen. “thinktards”, what is that, a name for somebody who doesnt always agree with your bullshit? [/quote]

Try reading all of my posts - hen get back to me. Hel;l just read everything I have written in the last 4 or 5 days, and get an idea of what I am trying to say. Your ignorance of what I am doing is not flattering on you. As for the name calling - I invite you to read vroom’s posts down here. Read some of Elk’s posts. It’s called tit-for-tat. And I am pretty good at what I do

Once again - read what I have written. I am not going to apologize for being a proud conservative. It is the weak minded that take you route and are against everything. It takes a shitload more guts to stand for something than it does to quote a fucking history teacher, and mistake laziness for being independent.

You prove with each successive paragraph that you haven’t read very many of my posts at all. I am a conservative. I will do and say what I think is needed to defend and advance conservatism. I don’t need some punk kid that is still quoting a history teacher to lecture me about thinking.

I encourage you to get off your ass and form an opinion based on something other than what your history teacher told you. I have little patience for those that don;t have the balls to stand for something other than to be against everything.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
harris447 wrote:
Who, exactly, did Clinton murder? Was it upwards to 35,000 Iraqis and 2,000 American troops?

Oh, no. That was your guy.

Shithead.

Maybe you should ask Vince Foster, or perhaps Ron Brown. That’s right - you can’t.

Nice try with the ABB “Bush lied people died” bullshit.

You are an embarassment.

[/quote]

That’s amusing. Anyone else accuses the ol-fuckers in the White House of having anything to do with gas prices, or Cheney and Halliburton of any shenanigans, and you start screaming about tin foil hats.

But, Clinton secretly had people killed. Riiiiiiight.

And, just because it rhymes doesn’t make it logical. Bush did lie about Iraq. Fact. People (tens of thousands of them) have died because of it. Fact.

First Green Day - Now the Boss?

And you accuse the right of not being able to think for themselves. Bwahahahahaha!!!

If anyone types the words to Fleetwood Mac’s “Don’t Stop Thinking About Tomorrow”, I’ll freakin puke.

Boston,

On a serious note, I think the Bush administration screwed itself when it played hardball with the media from day one.

Surely you are aware of all the talk about how if you ask tough questions then you will be snubbed in the future.

I’ve even seen it supported in these parts by suggesting that it had nothing to do with squelching the media and that Bush can choose whoever he wants to speak to.

Well, if there is a media bias against the Bush administration, it may be difficult to claim it is part of a bigger conspiracy due to this type of behavior.

Another factor is the holier than thou attitude espoused by republicans based on the Clinton presidency. It is indeed big news to watch the holier than thou cartel ass fuck itself in front of the entire nation.

Finally, there are a complete series of burning issues right now that must have Bush and his administration searching out asbestos security blankets. It’s almost comical.

I’ll grant you this: you are amusing.

[quote]vroom wrote:

You can spin this all you want.

The fact of the matter is that LYING to investigators about actions involving national security, during an investigations into said actions, is very troubling. [/quote]

It’s only troubling if it actually relates to national security. However, given that seemingly there was no crime of disclosing anything related to national security, given the lack of any indictments for such, it seems the alleged lying simply related to the investigation.

As I’ve said, lying under oath is problematic. But it ain’t national security.

[quote]vroom wrote:

I doubt anyone truly believes that these indictments came about simply because Libby was unsure of a few facts and misspoke himself. [/quote]

No, the indictment came because the prosecutor believed Libby was lying to him. Fitzgerald had specifically asked for and received (a very typical thing actually) an extension of his authority to prosecute for matters related to his investigation. Can’t blame the guy for not liking it when he thought someone was lying to him.

But guess what: Not national security.

[quote]vroom wrote:

No, the problem here, and the right is quick to grasp it, is that a huge spotlight is being shined into some uncomfortable areas right now. So, the usual tactics of distract, deflect and discredit are being brought to bear.[/quote]

Not really. Why should the White House care if the facts indicate that persons in the administration pointed reporters to Wilson’s non-undercover CIA analyst wife as the source of his appointment, about which Wilson had repeatedly lied? 'Cause I think it’s a pretty fair deduction, given the lack of indictments over disclosure of the identity of a covert operative, that she was not covert or there was no intent. It’s not like it would have taken the prosecutor 2 years to find out who told what to which reporters…

[quote]vroom wrote:

Let’s compare this to Clinton, and point out how Clinton was in a higher position when he did it.

Let’s compare the indictments to the possible range available and point out it could have been even more damning.[/quote]

Nah. Let’s point out how the indictments aren’t in any way related to national security issues.

[quote]vroom wrote:

Let’s suggest that because people aren’t indicted it proves they must be innocent. It doesn’t do much of anything, and I’m not claiming to know what did or didn’t happen, but I do have my opinion as does everyone else.[/quote]

No. Let’s point out that if no indictment was brought, then either of two things happened: 1) The prosecutor couldn’t find any evidence that led him to believe there had been a violation of the law; or 2) The prosecutor found some evidence that he thought was questionable, but decided it was too weak to risk an embarassing loss in a high-profile case just to pursue weak leads.

In neither case would you be in a high-ground moral position to look down on the non-indicted person and decide that he should be treated as morally culpable – even if you knew which one of the two alternatives it was, which you don’t. Of course, you can believe what you want, but when you have no evidence a crime even occurred, let alone know who took what actions, and you want to act as if the administration should be hanging its head in shame, it’s kind of pathetic.

[quote]vroom wrote:

As many people have previously claimed, prior to the whole issue of indictments due to this investigation, the Bush administration appears to have had a war against Iraq in mind and went looking for ways to justify it.[/quote]

Keep regurgitating the Democratic talking points. This is related to lying to a grand jury how again? Over how many assumptions do you have to leap to get from there to your point?

[quote]vroom wrote:

The ongoing investigations and any trials into this issue are going to shine a very hot light onto the actions of the administration in this regard.

So, of course I’m talking about things which are at the very least months away, but gems of information are going to drop out of this affair like wax off of a slowly burning candle.

Every single negative truth that comes out is going to burn the republican party, at all levels, especially because of their repeated claims of being the ethical party, the one you can trust to do the right thing as compared to the democrats.

This is why republicans are foaming at the mouth like impotent fire distinguishers trying to find any way to put out the awful blaze afire due to all the recently mishandled crises.

The Bush administration may have been doing bad things to innocent little girl America…

Hey little girl is your daddy home
Did he go away and leave you all alone
I got a bad desire
I’m on fire

Tell me now baby is he good to you
Can he do to you the things that I do
I can take you higher
I’m on fire

Sometimes it’s like someone took a knife baby
edgy and dull and cut a six-inch valley
through the middle of my soul

At night I wake up with the sheets soaking wet
and a freight train running through the
middle of my head
Only you can cool my desire
I’m on fire

[If this doesn’t set the foamers off, I don’t know what will][/quote]

You obviously have strange dreams. Don’t take ZMA or eat spicy foods before bed any more.

You do realize that you’ve concocted your own little fantasyland there, all based on what you (apparently) hope will happen, with nothing at all based on what came out today? Heck, we don’t even have a request to extend the grand jury right now…

Actually, tit-for-tat involves letting up when the other guy does. Nice try.

Words from your own mouth.

You will do whatever it takes to advance your own viewpoint and your own agenda. You don’t give a damn about right and wrong or truth, just the advancement of your cause by whatever it takes.

The heart of republicanism on display. Kind of puts to death the notion of compassionate conservatism, regardless of how much blood money is donated to whatever cause.

Boston, was this your mantra when Clinton was being impeached? Were you loudly proclaiming that the Clinton issue was an unimportant waste of time?

Honestly, if so, then I won’t really complain about your stance. Otherwise, your stance is completely hypocritical. Which is it?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Boston,

On a serious note, I think the Bush administration screwed itself when it played hardball with the media from day one.

Surely you are aware of all the talk about how if you ask tough questions then you will be snubbed in the future.

I’ve even seen it supported in these parts by suggesting that it had nothing to do with squelching the media and that Bush can choose whoever he wants to speak to.

Well, if there is a media bias against the Bush administration, it may be difficult to claim it is part of a bigger conspiracy due to this type of behavior.

Another factor is the holier than thou attitude espoused by republicans based on the Clinton presidency. It is indeed big news to watch the holier than thou cartel ass fuck itself in front of the entire nation.

Finally, there are a complete series of burning issues right now that must have Bush and his administration searching out asbestos security blankets. It’s almost comical.[/quote]

I do think the Administration should have taken a more open stance with the media – but you can’t tell me that the media wasn’t against him from the start. At least from the Bush v. Gore recount stories in FL and what not. I can see why they would have adopted a bunker mentality, even if I think it may have been ill advised to do so.

As to the other stories, Miers is overblown. The hurricane stuff really hurt, but I think the next two hurricanes being handled well has helped significantly. The kicked is gas prices right now, and will be natural gas prices this winter – but it’s kind of funny as those aren’t his fault, even though a lot of people think they are do to the horrible state of economic education in this country.

Right now the media has a story line about the beleagured administration. As I said, all those pre-written stories that hit the wires on the release of the indictment were kind of funny. All well and good – and it’s definitely not the administration’s finest hour. But really, if Bush had to hit a low point in his popularity (as all presidents do), now seems like an ideal time – it’s over a year from the next Congressional elections.

By the time it matters, no one will remember Miers and few will remember the Katrina issues. If nothing else happens w/r/t the special prosecutor, this will also be a footnote. I just hope gas prices go down…

[quote]chadman wrote:
When did Clinton get indicted for these murders? Where have I been? If he or his cronies did it, they should be strung up. Right next to Bush for getting 2000 of our servicemen and women killed in the line of duty for clusterfuck war that didn’t need to happen.[/quote]

Read what I wrote. I called his cronies a band of murderous thieves. Not Clinton. I don’t think Clinton killed anyone, but I do think he knows how and why some folks met untimely deaths. But I never accused Clinton of murder.

As for Bush murdering 2000 servicemen - that is a lame-assed straw man that the anti-war crowd throws out ad nauseum. It has been refuted many times, and I will not waste my time rehashing idiotic accusations.

The only “crimes” handed down so far have been obstruction of justice and perjury. Isn’t that what Clinton was indicted for?

Just because you don’t like the war does not make Bush a killer. But I know that matters little to you.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Actually, tit-for-tat involves letting up when the other guy does. Nice try.[/quote]

Nope - I tried that once. You guys are shifty little bastards, and I don’t trust you. Not down here anyways.

We have to be shifty little bastards, because you are a shifty big bastard, it’s called tit-for-tat, or haven’t you heard of that?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Nope - I tried that once. You guys are shifty little bastards, and I don’t trust you. Not down here anyways.

We have to be shifty little bastards, because you are a shifty big bastard, it’s called tit-for-tat, or haven’t you heard of that?[/quote]

THAT’S WHAT I JUST SAID!!!

Did you grow up with a bunch of women, or something? Sometimes you argue just like my wife.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
chadman wrote:
When did Clinton get indicted for these murders? Where have I been? If he or his cronies did it, they should be strung up. Right next to Bush for getting 2000 of our servicemen and women killed in the line of duty for clusterfuck war that didn’t need to happen.

Read what I wrote. I called his cronies a band of murderous thieves. Not Clinton. I don’t think Clinton killed anyone, but I do think he knows how and why some folks met untimely deaths. But I never accused Clinton of murder.

As for Bush murdering 2000 servicemen - that is a lame-assed straw man that the anti-war crowd throws out ad nauseum. It has been refuted many times, and I will not waste my time rehashing idiotic accusations. [/quote]

Since when is sending us to war and the real fact that 2000 of our own people are now dead because of it a “straw-man”? Straw-man seems to be your version of “neo-con”, just a meaningless, trying to be hip soundbite.

[quote]
I find the current administration crimes far more serious than Whitewater and a blowjob.

The only “crimes” handed down so far have been obstruction of justice and perjury. Isn’t that what Clinton was indicted for?[/quote]

Ah, the operative phrase is “so far”. And I’m using the word “crimes” loosely. Much like you think gay marriage is “criminal”. While Bush, Cheney, et al may never be charged with a crime for sending us to Iraq. The fact remains is was not the right thing to do. I’ve got friends over there right now who would much rather be home with their families than fighting in this clusterfuck war.

If it were not for Bush and his gang’s intense push for us to get into this war at all costs, these people would not be dead now. That does make him a killer in my book.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Read what I wrote. I called his cronies a band of murderous thieves. Not Clinton. I don’t think Clinton killed anyone, but I do think he knows how and why some folks met untimely deaths. But I never accused Clinton of murder.
[/quote]

I think that when you said “Clinton AND his band of murderous thieves” people took it as you calling Clinton a murderous thief along with the rest of his crew. BTW, by your own statement you are implying that Clinton has knowledge of some folks meeting an untimely death. That would make Clinton an accessory to murder. So, while you are not accusing him of murder, but you are accussing him of being an accessory. Just pointing that out.