Return of the Dog Pound

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
unless there is no desire at all for the the original forum dwellers to stay or return.

That honestly seems to be the sentiment.

I am asking flat out, is this the case?

[/quote]

I actually don’t think this is the case. What I do THINK is the case is that the forums are not receiving a great deal of attention in general lately due to other present considerations. I think. That’s an attempted deduction from someone with no special knowledge and is open to instant revision if corrected by one of the honchos.

I also THINK whatever attention they do get has been colored by the fact that this stuff has been going on long enough to just have become the norm and doesn’t stand out as needing attention in the first place. Another attempted deduction like the first.

Another possibility is the consensus ends up that this is just how it’s going to be and tough shit, despite TC,s efforts. For whatever it’s worth I would view that conclusion, if it were to happen, as an unfortunate error.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I don’t have a problem with noobs. I have a problem with noobs that have never learned to shut up and listen - or in this case to shut up and read. It seems that many of them think that because they are here they should be heard.

It has pretty much turned the BBing forum into a huge joke.

I don’t think I have ever failed to help a newbie that actually acted like he was here to learn be it in the steroid forum, or in the other forums.

If you have a better idea, I am all ears. The pay site thing has never materialized - and I paid to be a part of it several years ago.

I don’t think it needs to be as exclusive, or elitist as the old DP was. Maybe it could be that everyone can post, but you have to earn the right to start a thread. I know that would stop all the incessant logs.

[/quote]

By the way

Thank you Rainjack, and guys like you whom i’ve asked question via pm or made a thread and had great knowledgeable responses that helped me in any way.

I’m very sorry it’s come to this consensus for a exclusionary club house. Not that you all don’t deserve, I’m just very sorry that its necessary.

I see your point, Makkun. What you say will probably happen to a significant extent. Perhaps a period of time should pass before a new member can contribute. Also, I haven’t ever used the reporting service so maybe that, along with increased moderation present, would clean the place up.

I don’t see the fear of this causing a drain of knowledge in the forums. There aren’t 200 folks posting on this thread. There are a small number of hardcore BBers who are being ignored and to some extent, ridiculed on what really should be their site.

Give them a forum or a restricted thread like in the PC clinics and let them have some homeground back.

Their discussions may inspire people. I am thinking their discussions are going to spawn tons of noob threads. So let it.

Don’t tell the hardcore they can’t be separate from the horde, and that they must mingle with folks who have no interest in their sport/passion/lifestyle, and who make fun or are disgusted by said pursuits, and that these hardcore must share their experience and knowledge.

Regarding elitism, well,… isn’t this whole site a type of elitism? If the majority of folks are obese, doesn’t that make those of us who aren’t obese, a member of the elite?

This whole site used to be their club house. Let them have their club house.

[quote]makkun wrote:

Idiots come, and in most cases go again. Some stay, but getting annoyed by them so much that we want to bar them from our treehouse says more about us then about them.[/quote]

No one wants to bar them from the tree house. Things have just gotten to the point that something needs to be done. I want to talk about BBing. Not kayaking. Not rock climbing. I don’t go into the strength forum and take a shit in there. But the same courtesy is not extended to me, or the BBing forum.

If you have a better idea - hell any idea - please chime in with whatever you have.

[quote]Vets, posters and serious lifters here have moved into the realm of authors - that’s a special club in itself. Why try to build another one?

Makkun[/quote]

The last one I know of is Nate Green. And honestly - I have never read any of his articles, or even completely read one of his posts. I think that if he is the poster child of elite, then it is more than obvious we need something better than the status quo.

Dear TC,

Rather than radically inflate my post count by responding specifically to the dozens of posts here that inspire comment, I thought I’d go right to the top.

People here have been bitching for years about the site, the novices, the trolls, the moderating, the lack of moderating, the focus of the forums, the inclusion of non-bodybuilding topics, the…ahh, you know what I mean. You’ve read more closely than I.

Now someone has put on the table an idea that a large number of members can get behind. It has the benefit of being a familiar idea with an air of “good old days” about it. Many of us remember it well. You’ve even given them hope that you will consider it.

Don’t.

Don’t put it in place without some brainstorming. And I’m not even talking about deciding who gets to post.

Don’t put it in place without deciding and declaring

  1. What its goal is.
  2. How you will know that it is achieving its goal.
  3. How it will benefit T-Nation.

In six months’ time, if we cannot see how it has, in fact, made T-Nation “better,” then it’s probably not the answer to T-Nation’s problems.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
No one wants to bar them from the tree house.[/quote]

Exactly. The whole point of having the Dog Pound back would be so that newbies and non-vets can learn from “the best” and one day get into their ranks. It’s not about excluding everyone, it’s about weeding out the pointless jibber-jabber so that the wisdom can be focused on.

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Yes, don’t care to be allowed in it, but definitely want to read it.[/quote]

I agree with this…

Gerdy

Maybe the answer is just for the mods to crack down. I know of some other sites where the mods dont let shit fly any which way and shit stirrers and newbs hate it, but it keeps the vets around and makes it a much more enjoyable place to post and read.

Im going to say it again though, the kayakers/rock climbers/hikers/ping pong enthusiasts need a place besides the bodybuilding forum.

Add my vote in for this idea. It would go a long way to filter out the ‘static’, and increase the value of this site.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:

Im going to say it again though, the kayakers/rock climbers/hikers/ping pong enthusiasts need a place besides the bodybuilding forum.[/quote]

LOL.

Ping Pong racket = $20

Gym fees = $30

Supplements = $150/month

Looking exactly the same after half a decade of “lifting weights” yet truly believing you are now more “functional” because you can do ten whole push ups by yourself and quote random training authors by heart = priceless

[quote]rainjack wrote:
makkun wrote:

Idiots come, and in most cases go again. Some stay, but getting annoyed by them so much that we want to bar them from our treehouse says more about us then about them.

rainjack wrote:

No one wants to bar them from the tree house. Things have just gotten to the point that something needs to be done. I want to talk about BBing. Not kayaking. Not rock climbing. I don’t go into the strength forum and take a shit in there. But the same courtesy is not extended to me, or the BBing forum.

If you have a better idea - hell any idea - please chime in with whatever you have.[/quote]

First of all - I don’t think it’s so bad: I find most other forums I find on the Internet pretty unreadable (or I’m getting too old to understand wtf they are talking about as I don’t speak txt). T-Nation still has a higher standard than most other places out there. Over the years here, I’ve developed the skill of selective reading - and when certain people post, I mostly just zoom over it.

Secondly - where the kayaking thread ends up is a question of where the moderators put it. Just a few weeks back some poor guy put up the idea of a general fitness thread. In hindsight, perhaps not such a bad idea after all - but I remember quite some resistance.

But why not - ‘Fitness and other sports’ and move all MMA, badminton and kabbadi threads there. You’ll still have crossposters, but at least you’d have a place to put them. Let’s face it - some people do other sports as well - and the Nation is too valuable to be ignored by them. Let’s give them their space, so they don’t end up in BB.

Thirdly - just some random thoughts: why not turn it around, and say that we create ‘puppy pound’ where all first threads (of first ten threads) end up? Or order all threads by popularity, not when someone has posted most recently.

Or even a recommendation system making people enough friends in their profile, so they get posting rights (I’d be pretty screwed with this one…). These measures make it a bit harder but not impossible for people to join in, so the ‘Hello, I’m new - what’s my bodyweight?’ threads would be reduced. Dedicated trolls obviously will persist - HeadHunter proves this on a daily basis :wink: - but it may be worth a try.

[quote]makkun wrote:

Vets, posters and serious lifters here have moved into the realm of authors - that’s a special club in itself. Why try to build another one?

rainjack wrote:

The last one I know of is Nate Green. And honestly - I have never read any of his articles, or even completely read one of his posts. I think that if he is the poster child of elite, then it is more than obvious we need something better than the status quo.[/quote]

Besides being the spiritual eminence and father figure of all aspiring lifters, wasn’t Dan John a normal poster here as well? Yes, he runs a site - but I always thought he posted here as a normal mortal first. And Vroom (whom I miss in the Politics forum) did the Nation a great service with the sticky’d thread for beginners.

To summarise - I don’t think it’s that bad. With a slightly widened list of topics, a wee bit (really not much, dear mods) more moderation, and a bit more restraint and patience by all of us, I think we can tackle this.

Makkun

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Maybe the answer is just for the mods to crack down.
.[/quote]

agree and disagree.
If they crank up the moderation, people will bitch. If they back off, people will bitch. Some people here have old timers disease in a bad way. Everything is worse now then before, I mess the good ol’ days, where’s my bedpan…

I would be willing to bet that if a convention were to be held, and everyone were given this question, and were told to vote when blindfolded
“if you were to only consider the members of T-Nation as a whole, would you consider yourself above average in knowledge, in effort, in intelligence, raise your hand” well over 75% of the hands would raise.

It is an interesting experiment about perception. If you get the chance to speak to a room of any collective, ask this about the relative discussion topic. Parents about their children’s ability, etc.

Funny thing is, I see a lot of bitching from the same, about the same, for years now. Coming here is not required. If it isn’t changing to meet your expectations, stay the fuck out. Applies to this forum, this country, a marriage, whatever

I think everything is fine.

remember, just how popular is a popular vote?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Stronghold wrote:

Im going to say it again though, the kayakers/rock climbers/hikers/ping pong enthusiasts need a place besides the bodybuilding forum.

LOL.

Ping Pong racket = $20

Gym fees = $30

Supplements = $150/month

Looking exactly the same after half a decade of “lifting weights” yet truly believing you are now more “functional” because you can do ten whole push ups by yourself and quote random training authors by heart = priceless[/quote]

PREPOSTEROUS!!!

I’ll have you know in Ping Pong they’re called paddles and good ones cost waaay more than 20 bucks. Table Tennis / Ping Pong Equipment and Supplies Besides, it’s really table tennis anyway.

Come on pal let’s get it straight huh? Maybe we need a table tennis forum so these kinds of egregious oversights can be avoided in the future. Oh, I forgot we already have the bodybuilding forum so there shouldn’t be any excuses.

Just look at the list of forums there is no where for the ping pong clan/whoever, simply creating a few new forums I think would go a long way.

[quote]TseanS wrote:
Just look at the list of forums there is no where for the ping pong clan/whoever, simply creating a few new forums I think would go a long way. [/quote]

I am not looking forward to:

Bodybuilding
Ping Pong players
Rock climbers who hate too much strength
Boy Band wannabes
MMA/I just watched this on tv
Article Discussions
Beginners
Power Walkers
Mall Walkers
The Over 35 Lifter
Physique and Performance Photos
Supplements and Nutrition
Starving models
Homosexuality
Bowling
Speed swimming
People who simply like being obese
Strength Sports
Muscle Sorority
Powerful Women
Steroids
Get a Life (Off Topic)
General sports performance for those who don’t play sports
Sex and the Male Animal
Politics and World Issues
Random functionality with no specific function
Authors’ Locker Room
Shugart’s Hammer
T-Gallery
T-Nation Tech Support

[quote]tom63 wrote:
It was a dumb idea back in the day and it still is. BTW, I was an original dog pound member.[/quote]

I would much prefer an ignore feature than some elite type of board. I don’t find it annoying with silly newbie questions and silly posts. I respond at times in a sarcastic manner, but it doesn’t ruin my day having to read stuff.

As for who gets in, that’s the sticky point. do you go by professional qualifications? Strength level? Being a nice guy poster who might say the right things but be full of crap on how much he lifts, etc?

As for me, I’m about a class one level to master level powerlifter. I’m a chiropractor who has ART certification through biomechanics. In fact I was in Leahy’s first biomechanincs class. I’ve done ART for ten years, working at 6 Ironman races and five Arnold classics on the medical staff.

I answer injury and rehab related questions for Dave Tate over at Elite.

But who really cares, I could be making this stuff up for what everyone knows. And that’s my point of a Dog Pound. What’s really the point? The same could be accomplished by having an ignore user feature were you don’t even see the posts.

You can chose not to respond to a post.

On the plus side, doing something like this does take people back to the day when the gym was like a apprentice, journeyman, master situation.

When I started lifting in about 1975, you had the Sears Ted Williams plastic and cement weight set. All 110 pounds. If you were lucky you had the bench that would support maybe 300 total pounds.

You followed the program of ten exercises, 3 sets of ten. If you stuck with it, you might have had the confidence to enter a gym. With a big boy, or olympic bar. and if you had this opportunity, you did what the big guys said, if they even noticed you.

You made progress and if you could contribute to the overall good in the gym, you were accepted. If not, well, you probably didn’t stay on your own accord anyway. But you have to realize is that serious people have an outlet other than this website.

So what good does it do really? The good info is here and the nonsense. If you want really serious stuff you can find it.is why Dave Tate never started a forum. He asked his Elite contributors if they would be for it. We all said no. What’s the point? Headaches, but no real increase to your business.

But Dave sells equipment. T Nation sells supplements. The supplement market is a tougher market with a wider base of appeal. And to their credit, they do try to get out good products. they also pay their contributors better than average in this industry.

A forum to get people talking is good for Grow! or whatever sales. It wouldn’t work for high level gym equipment and more sales of Supertraining.

But other than responding to a perceived customer need, what would it accomplish and add to the companies bottom line? It wouldn’t really make the site better for me. And I doubt it would really make it better for anyone else.

If you can’t find the good info in a post here or an article here, I would doubt you’d apply anything if it was put right in front of your nose.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
TseanS wrote:
Just look at the list of forums there is no where for the ping pong clan/whoever, simply creating a few new forums I think would go a long way.

I am not looking forward to:

Bodybuilding
Ping Pong players
Rock climbers who hate too much strength
Boy Band wannabes
MMA/I just watched this on tv
Article Discussions
Beginners
Power Walkers
Mall Walkers
The Over 35 Lifter
Physique and Performance Photos
Supplements and Nutrition
Starving models
Homosexuality
Bowling
Speed swimming
People who simply like being obese
Strength Sports
Muscle Sorority
Powerful Women
Steroids
Get a Life (Off Topic)
General sports performance for those who don’t play sports
Sex and the Male Animal
Politics and World Issues
Random functionality with no specific function
Authors’ Locker Room
Shugart’s Hammer
T-Gallery
T-Nation Tech Support
[/quote]

LOL point taken!

[quote]Professor X wrote:
TseanS wrote:
Just look at the list of forums there is no where for the ping pong clan/whoever, simply creating a few new forums I think would go a long way.

I am not looking forward to:

Bodybuilding
Ping Pong players
Rock climbers who hate too much strength
Boy Band wannabes
MMA/I just watched this on tv
Article Discussions
Beginners
Power Walkers
Mall Walkers
The Over 35 Lifter
Physique and Performance Photos
Supplements and Nutrition
Starving models
Homosexuality
Bowling
Speed swimming
People who simply like being obese
Strength Sports
Muscle Sorority
Powerful Women
Steroids
Get a Life (Off Topic)
General sports performance for those who don’t play sports
Sex and the Male Animal
Politics and World Issues
Random functionality with no specific function
Authors’ Locker Room
Shugart’s Hammer
T-Gallery
T-Nation Tech Support
[/quote]

All that and you still forgot “I don’t wanna be huge”

Yeah there doesn’t need to be 800 new forums. Maybe it’s just me, but I always viewed “bodybuilding” itself to be hardcore. I thought casual bodybuilding was an oxymoron which is why I thought keeping the bodybuilding forum for serious physique pursuits and creating something new for everybody else would work, but whatever keeps decent focus would be good.