Primo is apparently the ONLY anabolic that builds muscle on low calorie diets - i read that a long time ago from some of the ‘old timer knowledge’ so i dont know how true that is, but i do think that primo and masteron would be a nice stack for dry gains but i dont think either are anabolic enough to keep muscle when on a strict diet… add some prop in there and lets rock!
Its a thinker![/quote]
see thats what I am really interested in, is this statement that primo is the only anabolic to build muscle while cutting, due to its ability to greatly increase nitrogen retention. Is this true? Can anyone verify it? Bill Roberts?
The only reason I am obsessing is because of the high price tag for primo almost 50$/g but i have to buy 10g at a time…
EDIT: To be clear I am asking if Primo is the only one that can do this, ie would using a stack of (just an example)
test
Nandrolone
Dbol
on a calorie deficient diet produce an increase in LBM while (if dieting correctly) a loss in body fat.
The reason Primo is so useful for this purpose is that one of its primary functions is to help your body retain nitrogen at a greatly enhanced rate. The greater your nitrogen retention is, the more muscle you will build. In the case of using primo as a pre-contest drug, this nitrogen retention will help you retain muscle and ensure that your dieting preferentially favors fat loss over muscle loss.
-Metabolic effects of anabolic steroids. Wien Med Wochenschr. 1993;143(14-15):368-75.
Just a source to back it up.
But at that price I guess the questions is … is it worth it?
[quote]W.H.B. wrote:
soontobe, all of the AAS you listed increase nitrogen retention. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of one that doesn’t.[/quote]
Your right, they do. But primo increases more according to research.
I think what hes getting at is he wants to increase muscle mass while actually losing fat mass at the same time, and is looking for a cycle to do just that…
OP correct me if im wrong…
[quote]retailboy wrote:
W.H.B. wrote:
soontobe, all of the AAS you listed increase nitrogen retention. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of one that doesn’t.
Your right, they do. But primo increases more according to research.
-RB[/quote]
I have not found anything in the literature to support your claim that Primobolan increases nitrogen retention better than any other AAS.
The profile you quoted, which was written by Anthony Roberts, does not make that claim. In fact the reference you posted claims,
“The injectable 17 beta-esters, such as nandrolone phenylpropionate, nandrolone decanoate and methenolone oenanthate exert a strong anabolic action for several weeks, amounting to 2-2.50 g nitrogen/day, which corresponds to a daily gain of 12-15 g protein or 60-75 g lean body mass. The orally active 17-alkyl derivatives induce a dose-dependent nitrogen-saving effect of the same order.”
I would absolutely believe Primobolan increases nitrogen retention better than some AAS, but not all. I imagine any AAS that has a high affinity for binding to the AR, such as Trenbolone, would have an equal effect on nitrogen retention as Primobolan.
Bill Roberts has written a profile on Primobolan. Perhaps he could shed some light on the subject. Retailboy, if you have anything you could show me that could set me straight, please let me know. Thanks.
He is wanting to Cut effectively Egnatios… so yes ideally he wants to build muscle too but to maintain it is enough too i am willing to bet.
I personally would not use primo for cutting unless money was no issue for me… simply as i know there are other drugs that are as anabolic for less.
But if it can cause the anabolism of deca while on cycle with no estrogen or water i can definitely see the allure.
I would love Bill roberts to pitch in with any experiences he has had of the enanthate ester in high doses. I am guessing he has.
As for Nandrolone, and its ability to increase Nitrogen retention - i cannot believe that primo enanth is better at N retention, given that for comparable results in muscle the dose is somewhere around 2-2.5x the dose of ND. Thats 300-400mg ND/600-1000mg PE.
I think using deca for the bulk of the cut - where water retention is no issue and then switching to tren ace or even primobolan 4 or so weeks before would be a decent plan.
Deca and masteron would be a good cutting stack for either those not competing or for upto 4 weeks before a show.
Deca (i know, i like it ok?) is really very good at building muscle with high protein - it honestly builds more noticeable muscle on me than testosterone. Not raw size but muscles grow larger.
If one is able to aquire a decent quality product, then it is actually an excellent drug for quality muscle growth and definition.
Tren with masteron as the DHT component would be a fantastic show stack IMO… both similar i know, and would induce pure rage in me - but dry as a bone, libido up and low side effects.
Back to primo - i dont see how it can be justified, but i would love to buy myself 20g (of Primo Enanthate) and go crazy to see… adding dbol to see if arnold was right.
[quote]W.H.B. wrote:
retailboy wrote:
W.H.B. wrote:
soontobe, all of the AAS you listed increase nitrogen retention. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of one that doesn’t.
Your right, they do. But primo increases more according to research.
-RB
I have not found anything in the literature to support your claim that Primobolan increases nitrogen retention better than any other AAS.
The profile you quoted, which was written by Anthony Roberts, does not make that claim. In fact the reference you posted claims,
“The injectable 17 beta-esters, such as nandrolone phenylpropionate, nandrolone decanoate and methenolone oenanthate exert a strong anabolic action for several weeks, amounting to 2-2.50 g nitrogen/day, which corresponds to a daily gain of 12-15 g protein or 60-75 g lean body mass. The orally active 17-alkyl derivatives induce a dose-dependent nitrogen-saving effect of the same order.”
I would absolutely believe Primobolan increases nitrogen retention better than some AAS, but not all. I imagine any AAS that has a high affinity for binding to the AR, such as Trenbolone, would have an equal effect on nitrogen retention as Primobolan.
Bill Roberts has written a profile on Primobolan. Perhaps he could shed some light on the subject. Retailboy, if you have anything you could show me that could set me straight, please let me know. Thanks.[/quote]
This is exactly what I was looking for thanks WHB-
I am still hoping mr Roberts or some one to his degree can come in and reccommend the best nitrogen retaining compounds if possible…
[quote] Brook wrote:
He is wanting to Cut effectively Egnatios… so yes ideally he wants to build muscle too but to maintain it is enough too i am willing to bet.
Brook[/quote]
Brook I was under the impression that he specifically wants to increase muscle mass and decrease fat mass at the same time not just maintain the mass… Thats all I was trying to clarify OP correct me if I am wrong…
[quote] Brook wrote:
IFBB - W.H.B is one of the best posters we have lad.
;)[/quote]
I wasnt trying to degrade his post by asking for Roberts help I certainly appreciate any help from all posters especially when he took the time to look up the study…
Thanks to everyone who has helped so far = )
[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
Brook wrote:
He is wanting to Cut effectively Egnatios… so yes ideally he wants to build muscle too but to maintain it is enough too i am willing to bet.
Brook
Brook I was under the impression that he specifically wants to increase muscle mass and decrease fat mass at the same time not just maintain the mass… Thats all I was trying to clarify OP correct me if I am wrong…[/quote]
Well initially I was just looking for a supplement regime up until a competition but you are correct that I am interested now if it would be possible to do both while cutting
IE
Weight 209lb 9%bf currently using skin caliper
which means
190 lb lean body mass
19 lb fat mass
is it possible during a cut to go to say
196lb lean body mass
10lb fat mass
this would be a cycle that i might do about 16 weeks out until about 4-6 weeks out then switch to just the “hardners” that DG talked about earlier…
[quote]soontobeIFBB wrote:
Brook wrote:
IFBB - W.H.B is one of the best posters we have lad.
I wasnt trying to degrade his post by asking for Roberts help I certainly appreciate any help from all posters especially when he took the time to look up the study…
Thanks to everyone who has helped so far = )[/quote]
Thank you for the kind words Brook.
Anytime Bill post, it is a learning experience. He has taught me more than any other steroid author through his post here and articles on MesoRX. Lets not forget his amazing post on supplements as well. Anyway, ill stop now in the hopes that Bill will still be able to sit down…getting your ass kissed can really make you sore.
I have to make guesses when trying to figure what other steroid writers were thinking, but keeping in mind that it’s a guess, I believe the thought process often went like this:
"Since I’m writing a book, it has to have a lot of pages. So I’m going to give each steroid at least a page or two of its own.
"Hmm, now how am I going to fill this out? I gotta have ‘unique’ stuff to say about each steroid so as to not be boring, to make this something of a page-turner, and just to fill the space if nothing else. Oh yeah, and to make readers feel like they definitely did need to buy my book.
"I know… I will go through Medline and my stash of existing bodybuilding steroid books and any time I find that there’s research or another author saying something about an anabolic steroid, I will put that in there as if it is a unique property of that steroid!
Result: the reader concludes that if he wants increased nitrogen retention he needs to stack some Primobolan in there. Or if he wants increased phosphocreatine, he needs to include some oxandrolone. Etc.
Uh, no, he doesn’t, in either of those cases.
The advice you have received above in various response was sound.
Or more specifically, rather than just discussing the general case as I did above: ALL of the pharmaceutical anabolic steroids in existence are the result of screening assays selecting for ability to improve nitrogen retention.
thought I would post the PM betweeen myself and Bill for others to read:
SoontobeIFBB
Bill-
Would you say it is possible- With a very high protein moderate/low carb very low fat (ALL EFAs) diet and AAS to increase FatFreeMass while decreasing fat mass?
If so what type of compounds would you advise in doing so? Thanks in advance
Bill Roberts wrote:
Yes, if not already having gotten most of the gains that as an individual one might get from steroid use – e.g. if a first cycle or otherwise still early on – that is doable compared to previous (if any) best while-using LBM, or if the comparison is to LBM while not using, most definitely.
The choice of compounds to be use would be no different than usual, that is to say either plenty of testosterone, or combining a Class I and Class II in good dosages.
SoontobeIFBB
great to hear, thank you Bill!
Bill Roberts
Sure thing!
The previous having been said, I do think the more efficient ways to attain that goal are:
During the cycle, have some days or weeks (durations not exceeding two weeks) where the purpose is LBM gain with only minimal fat gain, OR fairly rapid fat loss.
Yielding a total result of both occurring over the cycle. Or,
If using short-acting compounds then brief alternating cycles can readily be all LBM gain (with only very modest fat gain) in the “on” weeks and effective fat loss in the off weeks. Preferably with the first off week being only very modest for fat loss as recovery is better when not dieting severely.
By minimal fat gain I mean a rate of ideally 1/2 lb added fat per week and no more than 1 lb fat per week.
Actually on seeing that, I see that what I wrote was on one point not really what I meant to say.
I meant to say that if within a cycle alternating between mass gain and fat loss weeks, it’s better for the alternation to be rapid enough that the fat loss weeks aren’t longer than 2 weeks at a time. There’s nothing wrong with having more than 2 weeks in a row of mass gain.
E.g., if doing an 8 week cycle and wanting to lose a little fat while gaining muscle, there would be nothing wrong with budgeting say a total of 3 fat-loss weeks shooting for say 8 lb fat lost in those weeks; and 5 weeks towards muscle gain allowing 3-5 lb of fat gain in those weeks. Giving a net of 3-5 lb of fat lost while also having good opportunity to gain muscle.
This is better than limiting intake throughout so as to lose half a pound of fat per week throughout the cycle. Trying to do that is not getting any better fat loss results than you could get without the androgens, and also seriously compromising gains.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
there would be nothing wrong with budgeting say a total of 3 fat-loss weeks shooting for say 8 lb fat lost in those weeks .[/quote]
What type of diet would you advise for those type of results, I dont see carb cycling or my more frequent keto diet giving those type of numbers. Would you just shoot for a diet that is low carb and 9333 calories below expenditure each week?
