Retaining Muscle Mass with Calorie Deficient Diet

Pharma
1

Would a compoundlike primo be more beneficial or more capable of preserving muscle mass while cutting because of its ability to cause increased nitrogen retention?

I am in the process of comparing
masterone/TA/Primo/Winstrol/NPP/Var/Bol
for a “cutting” cycle later in the year…
I have never used a DHT derivative drug and am fairly unfamiliar with what the description of “hardness” means physiologically. Is it less water retention? densening of the muscle? or something else?

I am looking to the vets, and those who have competed not those who think 13%bf is “cut” lol No offense PLers = )

My base is obviously Test proprionate…

Thanks for the help guys

2

I personally like the effects TA seems to have on nutrient partitioning, which is obviously very valuable in a hypocaloric diet.

I would love to hear some users opinions on winstrol, it seems as far as DHT steroids goes mast offers many more benefits.

Are you cutting up to a competition or is this just a seasonal diet change?

3

[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
I personally like the effects TA seems to have on nutrient partitioning, which is obviously very valuable in a hypocaloric diet.

I would love to hear some users opinions on winstrol, it seems as far as DHT steroids goes mast offers many more benefits.

Are you cutting up to a competition or is this just a seasonal diet change?[/quote]

I think Tren is a great way to go in the beginning and then switching to masteron. To be honest while running both of those drugs I didn’t notice anything from adding winny. I think the only time I’ll be using winny in the future is just prior to competition or any time I take anadrol as there is synergy there.

w1-10 test prop
w1-6 tren ace
w1-6 dbol
w6-12 masteron prop
w6-12 (primo/var/*winny if you don’t mind methyl for 12 wks :s)
w10-12 Halotestin

This might be a sample cycle of what I’d do next time I’m prepping for a show. Week 12 would be the show *its your choice if you want to be on AAS after the show when you hit that rebound from eating again lol :stuck_out_tongue:

Diet is of course key, but the first 6 weeks of the cycle will still help you hold a bit of size imo then the last 6 weeks will be all your ‘hardeners’.

I think I may be one who can run test to a show with the proper AI and diuretic but I’d drop it a good 2-3 weeks out and add Halotestin to be sure.

My last show I went in on halo/mast/winny and I don’t think the winny was worth it. I know primo/var are more expensive but I’d like to try one of those instead…maybe var since it aids in vascularity which is cool onstage. lol

As far as hardness goes I guess something comparable would be as if you dieted down really lean and then started a bulk again. That filled out lean muscle look is waaay easier to get and maintain while using the ‘hardeners’. I also believe dht’s aid in that grainy dry look (think pics of yates in socks)

Another thing to consider is Masteron E…and no tren. Tren was cool but I felt better on Masteron and had similar effects as far as strength/aggression/vascularity/hardness.

I think that covered some of the questions. lol

All my opinion too of course…

DG

4

I know primo/var are more expensive but I’d like to try one of those instead…maybe var since it aids in vascularity which is cool onstage. lol

DG
[/quote]

Var has some fat loss potential as well correct? As well as increasing collagen synthesis… hmmmm

To those that have tried Primo is it worth the high price tag?

OP not trying to hijack I figured its on the same topic…

5

Test 300mg e/w that’s all.

Think about it, you are going to be caloric deficient state.

You just want to hold to supply an environment to retain muscle.

You don’t need anything fancy - keep all that shit for your ‘bulk’ when you will actually be able to use it to grow.

Test 300mg e/w don’t over complicate it.

-RB

6

RB - while in a way you arent wrong, this lad is wanting to compete - and there are many drugs that help to get a fantastic look at 3% compared to test.

I will be using something along the lines of a little test prop - 350mg/wk with some masteron 350mg/wk and halo at 20mg/d, split morning/evening.

I can imagine that that test P ran upto 2 weeks prior then switch to suspension until the night before the show, going in on mast and halo would be an excellent way to go…

But as i have not yet had the chance to experiment i couldnt say for sure.

The guys who have run AAS in a number of shows are the BEST to ask.

And i’d listen to DG too… and i do.

:wink:

8

BBB,
Everyone reacts different, and everyone has different goals.

On tren, my muscles seem fuller and at low body fat give me the ‘grainy’ look - help combat the flat muscle on low carbs. But these characteristics aren’t lasting, and once I’m off the tren I look the same as if I used test (generally).

I respect your experience though - I think we can both agree it is beneficial in some way during a cut… I just believe it’s short lived visual effects, you belief it retains muscle more.

My methodology of steroids is mainly based on low dose test all year (300-500mg e/w), cycle deca or tren in and out (I believe you like the blast/cruise BBB). I also believe people make this shit to be rocket science and it really isn’t, a lot of the gear out there can be replaced by Test and have just as good if not better result… but it’s about making money and about over analyzing things. (I 100% recommend ‘stay on’ for those 40+… anyone younger can cycle and bounce back)

My cutting ideology: Diet will do the trick along with the cardio. Use something to hold on to the muscle. It does not get any more basic than that.

I’m sure you agree it’s mainly diet like 85-90%.

grr rambling on again…

I’m glad you didn’t shoot my opinion down or say it is wrong - because that’s what happened a lot of time… and it’s just Bullshit to do that on these forums. Mainly because the only research we have on this stuff is our result and blood work. Labs won’t touch this stuff with a 10’ pole. So thanks for the respectful reply, I hope mine was as respectful.

But still even blood work will never measure HPT axis suppresion nor give any indication of what it takes the body’s normal hormone production to resume.

Also if this was a national level competitor I would have a different stance.

It’s pretty cool we have a cluster fuck of gear methods on here… it reveals different view: taper, ‘regular’ PCT, on all year, blast cruise, 12 week cycle, 2-4 week cycles…etc… a lot of forums have a ton of members that just get on the bandwagon of what ‘the big guy’ says on the forum.

blah blah blah… work is calling me peace.

-RB

9

[quote]Dirty Gerdy wrote:
egnatiosj wrote:
I personally like the effects TA seems to have on nutrient partitioning, which is obviously very valuable in a hypocaloric diet.

I would love to hear some users opinions on winstrol, it seems as far as DHT steroids goes mast offers many more benefits.

Are you cutting up to a competition or is this just a seasonal diet change?

I think Tren is a great way to go in the beginning and then switching to masteron. To be honest while running both of those drugs I didn’t notice anything from adding winny. I think the only time I’ll be using winny in the future is just prior to competition or any time I take anadrol as there is synergy there.

w1-10 test prop
w1-6 tren ace
w1-6 dbol
w6-12 masteron prop
w6-12 (primo/var/*winny if you don’t mind methyl for 12 wks :s)
w10-12 Halotestin

This might be a sample cycle of what I’d do next time I’m prepping for a show. Week 12 would be the show *its your choice if you want to be on AAS after the show when you hit that rebound from eating again lol :stuck_out_tongue:

Diet is of course key, but the first 6 weeks of the cycle will still help you hold a bit of size imo then the last 6 weeks will be all your ‘hardeners’.

I think I may be one who can run test to a show with the proper AI and diuretic but I’d drop it a good 2-3 weeks out and add Halotestin to be sure.

My last show I went in on halo/mast/winny and I don’t think the winny was worth it. I know primo/var are more expensive but I’d like to try one of those instead…maybe var since it aids in vascularity which is cool onstage. lol

As far as hardness goes I guess something comparable would be as if you dieted down really lean and then started a bulk again. That filled out lean muscle look is waaay easier to get and maintain while using the ‘hardeners’. I also believe dht’s aid in that grainy dry look (think pics of yates in socks)

Another thing to consider is Masteron E…and no tren. Tren was cool but I felt better on Masteron and had similar effects as far as strength/aggression/vascularity/hardness.

I think that covered some of the questions. lol

All my opinion too of course…

DG
[/quote]

DG that cycle looks great and all the info is appreciated. I have only cut down to competition like leaness twice so this will be somewhat of an adventure for me. I am very lean naturally so its never really been an issue either.

Thanks for the help

10

[quote] Brook wrote:
RB - while in a way you arent wrong, this lad is wanting to compete - and there are many drugs that help to get a fantastic look at 3% compared to test.

I will be using something along the lines of a little test prop - 350mg/wk with some masteron 350mg/wk and halo at 20mg/d, split morning/evening.

I can imagine that that test P ran upto 2 weeks prior then switch to suspension until the night before the show, going in on mast and halo would be an excellent way to go…

But as i have not yet had the chance to experiment i couldnt say for sure.

The guys who have run AAS in a number of shows are the BEST to ask.

And i’d listen to DG too… and i do.

;)[/quote]

Thanks Brook I appreciate your input.

I dont have a source for the Halo, what about var as a substitute? I have acess to it, for a price but not sure if it is comparable.

My other question is about primo, which I have heard very good things about and apparently has good synergy with Masteron. I also know several older guys at my gym who swear by primo/bol but they are kind of clueless about proper cycles and such so I dont take what they say seriously…

11

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
retailboy wrote:
Test 300mg e/w that’s all.

Think about it, you are going to be caloric deficient state.

You just want to hold to supply an environment to retain muscle.

You don’t need anything fancy - keep all that shit for your ‘bulk’ when you will actually be able to use it to grow.

Test 300mg e/w don’t over complicate it.

-RB

Respectfully I have to disagree. Tren does seem to be the superior drug for cutting. It is definitely NOT superior for bulking due to the appetite suppression and the poor sleep.

However in a cal. deficient state, tren has done wonders for me in terms of retaining muscle, when compared to any other drug I have tried (and yes I’ve tried most, lol).

Actually, the exception would be GH which is THE best drug for cutting IMO.

BBB[/quote]

I do have access to GH but at a HIGH price tag. From what I have heard (hearsay) it wasnt worth it… I know very little about the drug so I apologize for the ignorance. I was under the impression that GH is responsible for the distended abdominals seen by some of the top BBers. I have also heard that GH increases joint swelling/pain which would negate it as already have some squeeky parts lol

12

[quote]soontobeIFBB wrote:

I do have access to GH but at a HIGH price tag. From what I have heard (hearsay) it wasnt worth it… I know very little about the drug so I apologize for the ignorance. I was under the impression that GH is responsible for the distended abdominals seen by some of the top BBers. I have also heard that GH increases joint swelling/pain which would negate it as already have some squeeky parts lol
[/quote]

That’s up for debate… but it’s blamed on either slin or GH or the both of them. But it’s a result of long term abuse of them.

-RB

13

[quote]retailboy wrote:
soontobeIFBB wrote:

I do have access to GH but at a HIGH price tag. From what I have heard (hearsay) it wasnt worth it… I know very little about the drug so I apologize for the ignorance. I was under the impression that GH is responsible for the distended abdominals seen by some of the top BBers. I have also heard that GH increases joint swelling/pain which would negate it as already have some squeeky parts lol

That’s up for debate… but it’s blamed on either slin or GH or the both of them. But it’s a result of long term abuse of them.

-RB[/quote]

Thanks for the contribution RB and I understand what you are saying, for most guys who are trying to cut to around 8-10% i think test is fine. But for guys who are greatly above the genetic limit and/or are cutting to levels of 2-3% bodyfat I feel like a combo of compounds are necessary…

14

I know your post wasnt aimed at me primarily RB - but i felt i could reply from my point of view - i am not treying to answer for anyone else! :wink:

[quote]retailboy wrote:
BBB,
Everyone reacts different, and everyone has different goals.

On tren, my muscles seem fuller and at low body fat give me the ‘grainy’ look - help combat the flat muscle on low carbs. But these characteristics aren’t lasting, and once I’m off the tren I look the same as if I used test (generally).[/quote]
But you must see that it would be beneficial to use to cut and STAY on it for the show - remember a cut for a show is only done for that one day - it all builds to the one peak, so if the look is lost after, it isnt important, as long as you peak.[quote]

I respect your experience though - I think we can both agree it is beneficial in some way during a cut… I just believe it’s short lived visual effects, you belief it retains muscle more.[/quote]

I happen to know that if i try to cut a little on test and deca (i know, weirdo!) i find that the results are MUCH better than if i was on test alone… I can easily see why tren and test would retain more than test alone - it depends on bodytype and diet of course but all being equal…[quote]

My methodology of steroids is mainly based on low dose test all year (300-500mg e/w), cycle deca or tren in and out (I believe you like the blast/cruise BBB). I also believe people make this shit to be rocket science and it really isn’t, a lot of the gear out there can be replaced by Test and have just as good if not better result… but it’s about making money and about over analyzing things.

(I 100% recommend ‘stay on’ for those 40+… anyone younger can cycle and bounce back)[/quote]

That is a fine plan - but you are not a competitive BB or an aspiring one. It really is a different thing to have that aim, it changes the whole thing and while your cycling will give as good as gains as anyone may need - there are options, not to make things complicated for no reason but simply because adding IGFR3 and GHRP cycled with slin and GH on top of your protocol WILL give more and better results. As will 1500mg test a week!

You also say that alot of gear could be replaced with test for as good or better results - that is probably the opne thing i 100% disagree with. it is just wrong actually - at least in the case of well planned cycles.

Obviously when someone is running sust at 250mg a week and var for ‘safety’ then tripling the test dose would be much more effective - but in all honesty i would prefer to run test and deca for a total of 1.5g rather than test alone… and i KNOW the results are superior.
Test has specific results and side effects that arent always desired - hence the love of deca over the years (till now it seems!)[quote]

My cutting ideology: Diet will do the trick along with the cardio. Use something to hold on to the muscle. It does not get any more basic than that.[/quote]

As i said, it isnt enough for some goals… it is fine for the best of recreational physiques… but judges look for certain shit.

The thing is RB, while again you are not wrong in your simplicity there are reasons that this is not the case for a competitive BB.

There is a look onstage that is desired and awarded. it is the grainy, dry and hard look - as you pointed out you need to be on high androgens and non-estrogenic drugs (your example was tren) for this to happen - just because AFTER the cycle you look like you may have used any anabolic - say test, it is about peaking for a day… the morning and evening show.

This is an accumulation of the diet the training for muscle size and drugs… and like it or not the pharmacology of BB is a VERY important aspect.

You can build a very advanced physique with test and deca… and it will be the base of my arsenal forever - as there is little i have tried that works like the combo.

However when it comes to the show (this is the point - it is the show NOT just ‘cutting’) different drugs will be needed - not just for the muscle soparing effects - a absolute must of course - but for the visual and psychological benefits.

the cutting is done the 12 or so weeks PRIOR to the show, and you are right - test alone would suffice, but you can get different effects by adding other drugs. tren will help with appetite, aggression in the gym when depleted, harden the muscles… and be a drug you can use during the show.

If the question is simply what shall i use to spare muscle while i drop bodyfat then test will be fine (although there are benefits even then to adding certain compounds).

If the question is what cycle shal i run to cut and compete on? then the answer will follow the theme of this thread more I suppose.

I know you know all this - you are an educated guy - especially with diet i know, and you are not wrong in anything you have stated - but there ARE benefits to adding other drugs for cutting as well as for competing.

You might be into the “back to basics” kinda mentality, but maybe you should move outta your comfort zone and see what damage you can do!

With respect mate.

:wink:

15

[quote]soontobeIFBB wrote:
Brook wrote:
RB - while in a way you arent wrong, this lad is wanting to compete - and there are many drugs that help to get a fantastic look at 3% compared to test.

I will be using something along the lines of a little test prop - 350mg/wk with some masteron 350mg/wk and halo at 20mg/d, split morning/evening.

I can imagine that that test P ran upto 2 weeks prior then switch to suspension until the night before the show, going in on mast and halo would be an excellent way to go…

But as i have not yet had the chance to experiment i couldnt say for sure.

The guys who have run AAS in a number of shows are the BEST to ask.

And i’d listen to DG too… and i do.

:wink:

Thanks Brook I appreciate your input.

I dont have a source for the Halo, what about var as a substitute? I have acess to it, for a price but not sure if it is comparable.

My other question is about primo, which I have heard very good things about and apparently has good synergy with Masteron. I also know several older guys at my gym who swear by primo/bol but they are kind of clueless about proper cycles and such so I dont take what they say seriously…
[/quote]

Var is not comparable to halotestin. Var will not give you anything amidst tren effects, so save your money. tren would be enough but consult with a ‘real’ BB on the specifics… ;D
(hopefully i will be one by years end :D)

I have also heard that primo and dbol is an amazing stack - and one i would love to try, but i am not convinced of its effiacy. primo isnt as effective as deca in synthesis and size even at 3x the dose, and deca and dbol is the greaty combo of all time - so how can it live upto that??

Primo is apparently the ONLY anabolic that builds muscle on low calorie diets - i read that a long time ago from some of the ‘old timer knowledge’ so i dont know how true that is, but i do think that primo and masteron would be a nice stack for dry gains but i dont think either are anabolic enough to keep muscle when on a strict diet… add some prop in there and lets rock!

Its a thinker!

16

I know your post wasnt aimed at me primarily RB - but i felt i could reply from my point of view - i am not treying to answer for anyone else! :wink:

retailboy wrote:
BBB,
Everyone reacts different, and everyone has different goals.

I apologize, I didn?t see he was competing my advice stands for those not competing and cutting. NO for competing: 4 weeks out switch the test to test propionate or suspension. Drop the Deca/EQ, etc.

Add primobolan, tren, winny, etc. One week out, only use tren, masteron, suspension, primo tabs, winny. Use GH throughout - as much as you can afford. No insulin. Use Arimidex (2mg during show week)/Nolvadex (40mg during show week) every day as desired.

During the cut Clen and ECA would be used as well working up to 160mcg/d. You could cycle in T3 25mcg/d the third week of clen, increasing 25 per week, till get to 150mcg/d.

there are options, not to make things complicated for no reason but simply because adding IGFR3 and GHRP cycled with slin and GH on top of your protocol WILL give more and better results. As will 1500mg test a week!

I disagree, some of that peptide shit is complete BS works on paper ? but you won?t see that much because people have brainwashed some forums with the ?paper? data ? some work yes, some are complete crocks (I hate those shoes BTW crocks ugly).

More is not usually better ? if you take out ALL of the side effects generally you are correct. GH and slin, are useful? most people don?t know how to use them correctly and are just throwing money into the black market, especially with GH.

You also say that alot of gear could be replaced with test for as good or better results - that is probably the opne thing i 100% disagree with. it is just wrong actually - at least in the case of well planned cycles.

Let me just use one example? did you know that deca interferes with the androgen receptor for Testosterone? And deca doesn?t actually increase collagen?. But anyway? Trenbolone have a binding affinity for the androgen receptore 3 times as high as the testosteron?

That?s why I?m not totally against using other compounds? I just believe through experience and a lot of research, anyone not nationally competing can get where they wana go (and safest way of all gear) with testosterone. Sure there?s plus?s with other gear but then you calculate in health, price, etc?

Obviously when someone is running sust at 250mg a week and var for ‘safety’ then tripling the test dose would be much more effective - but in all honesty i would prefer to run test and deca for a total of 1.5g rather than test alone… and i KNOW the results are superior.

Test has specific results and side effects that arent always desired - hence the love of deca over the years (till now it seems!)

I?m equating in health, which is the value they put on it is different from person to person. My ?methods? have balanced health sides and gains ? according to my research. I?ve been advised by two doctors, off the record.
My cutting ideology: Diet will do the trick along with the cardio. Use something to hold on to the muscle. It does not get any more basic than that.

As i said, it isnt enough for some goals… it is fine for the best of recreational physiques… but judges look for certain shit.

Look there are some people that have insane genetics, those are the ones at the O?s? most of us don?t have the genetics to ever win a national show. So can we abuse drugs like you mentioned to make up for our genetics, to an extent but those are the ones that make it pro and then fall off the side of the earth cause their body is beat.

I believe in looking in yourself, weigh cost vs benefit and then take the shit you feel is good, then train your ass off and eat 100%… and most important don?t stress, let the genetics do the work, either you will make it or you won?t.

Too many people don?t enjoy the ride, too many people kill themselves, literally to push their selves chemically to do things their body wasn?t meant to.

I will respond to the rest later? but we can agree that we do see some thigns different, but I think we would agree on a lot more if we were talking about same person at the same stage in BB, cause I think I?m talking about a non-national competitor, and everyday joe that wants to compete? but has ordinary genetics… you know like 95% of us.

Good convo brook, I’ll write more later…

Good stuff.

-RB

17

“If the question is simply what shall i use to spare muscle while i drop bodyfat then test will be fine (although there are benefits even then to adding certain compounds).”

I agree, I miss read the OP. Didn’t read the contest info :\I also agree there are benefits, I just try to look at reality: genes, age, money, health… not saying you aren’t Brook, I’m living in ‘my’ reality (my money, health, etc.) so my choices will be different.

“You might be into the “back to basics” kinda mentality, but maybe you should move outta your comfort zone and see what damage you can do!”

I believe in putting yourself in a anabolic state with drugs without much health risk (I get blood every 6 months). Eating enough calories so you can grow (your body will generally tell you that) without gaining fat. And stimulating your muscles to allow muscle growth…

The key though is diet imo, do any routine, keep injecting a little above HRT and you will grow like a myostatin bull… yes you can increase the juice or get a better program and not have ore health risks, but that’s all individualistic. blah blah blah

Gotta take my metaformin and my last refeed meal… This 58 fish oil a day has me farting mermaids.

Sorry for the hijack, but what’s your diet looking like right now Brook?

-RB

18

Yep good convo - and i will agree to disagree on some points, but overall and generally i agree.

I eat high protein and high carb, low fat. Carbs are low GI and fats are unsaturated.
I am not counting at this moment in time but i know i am near 35:50:15

I supplement unflavoured protein into many foods as well as shakes, i use maltodextrin PWO and oats everyother time… egg white protein at nighttime!

I eat oats, flax/soy bread, beans, WGpasta and WGrice, seeds and nuts, natural popcorn, flax oil and low fat meats… etc etc etc…

I cant grow without a decent amount of carbs - well, i prolly could but i KNOW i grow much better with carbs, and i tolerate them well.

TBh i have just cleaned up the diet, I never used to sloppy bulk, and after joining the forums over the past year or two i thought i’d try it. I dont like it! Too much sugar plus eaten with fats, and that just makes one fat. Not muscular.

I always believed in eating clean, (alot for bulking) and gaining minimal fat - but not being scared of a little. It is what bodybuilding is about IMO - never above 15%.
And i PREFER eating low GI carbs and low fat than crap with high protein.

I too will be starting on my metformin soon, my slin sensitivity is fucked ATM (for me, not for a human), and is what caused me to get my head screwed on properly with my real knowledge instead of bro knowledge!

Supplementation i use powdered oats, maltodextrin, whey and casein or egg.
Creatine mono, HMB, leucine.

If you want supp details then email me…

/hijack! Sorry OP!

JJ

19

[quote] Brook wrote:
Yep good convo - and i will agree to disagree on some points, but overall and generally i agree.

I eat high protein and high carb, low fat. Carbs are low GI and fats are unsaturated.
I am not counting at this moment in time but i know i am near 35:50:15

I supplement unflavoured protein into many foods as well as shakes, i use maltodextrin PWO and oats everyother time… egg white protein at nighttime!

I eat oats, flax/soy bread, beans, WGpasta and WGrice, seeds and nuts, natural popcorn, flax oil and low fat meats… etc etc etc…

I cant grow without a decent amount of carbs - well, i prolly could but i KNOW i grow much better with carbs, and i tolerate them well.

TBh i have just cleaned up the diet, I never used to sloppy bulk, and after joining the forums over the past year or two i thought i’d try it. I dont like it! Too much sugar plus eaten with fats, and that just makes one fat. Not muscular.

I always believed in eating clean, (alot for bulking) and gaining minimal fat - but not being scared of a little. It is what bodybuilding is about IMO - never above 15%.
And i PREFER eating low GI carbs and low fat than crap with high protein.

I too will be starting on my metformin soon, my slin sensitivity is fucked ATM (for me, not for a human), and is what caused me to get my head screwed on properly with my real knowledge instead of bro knowledge!

Supplementation i use powdered oats, maltodextrin, whey and casein or egg.
Creatine mono, HMB, leucine.

If you want supp details then email me…

/hijack! Sorry OP!

JJ[/quote]

I’ve always been the anal one to count everything I eat, weigh everything to the ounce. Do I suggest this, no - but it is what floats my boat.

Is that 35prot:50carb?

I am glad I finally found what I do best on for gaining/cutting… I’m sure you saw my other thread where I mentioned it with ‘GrowingBoy.’ Glad you have found something that works. Sometimes take a lot of experimenting and screwing up. It took a lot for me to find out exactly what works best for me anyway.

Unlike you, I don’t need a bunch of carbs or calories to ‘gain.’ Just 200g around workout, rest of the day it’s like a 50g carb diet. I will be hitting the insulin once I’m back to ‘gaining’ at the end of next month, getting down to that 6-8% bf range.

Haha ‘bro knowledge’ I hear you. Your very intelligent and a great asset to this board, I remember you being a little clueless when you first came here :P… all due respect.

I’m not doing much of supplements right now, waxy, wpi, casein, 58~ fish oils a day. But when I start ‘gaining’ it gets crazy… same thing with super supplements.

I’ll PM you…

-RB

20

YGPM :wink: