Reminiscing about WMD's

[quote]Professor X wrote:
This is WAR we are talking about. “Send your babies off to shoot really big guns and die” war. Not “put your finger in your jacket and hold up a Stop & Go” war. This is “1,000+ soldiers killed in the line of duty by April” war. Not “shoot the one guy attempting you hold you up first and ask questions later” war. This is “millions of dollars and thousands of innocents trapped in the crossfire” war, not “one wallet and a credit card” war. No, I’m sorry, the two are not the same. When that many lives are put up for grabs, the stakes are raised well beyond your cheap leather wallet and some baby pictures.[/quote]

My point is, and has been throughout every freakin one of these threads - we acted on the best intel we had, dealing with a tyrant that has rattled his sword as nauseum since he was basically let off the hook in 1991, and knowing that he had violated 16, or 17, or however many UN resolutions.

What if we had done nothing, and been right? But we’re not going to talk about the other possibilities. Bush lied people died - that’s all the ABBers want to see.

How many people would have died had Bush ‘told the truth’? You guys would have crucified him the same way you are now. But we’re not going to look at what we might have avoided by invading - that would make Bush look too much like a hero - and the ABBers couldn’t handle that.

By the way - I can’t believe you remember the PETA crack.

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Read the 1000 Iraq War posts. Then offer an alternative.
P.S. Four more years!!![/quote]

This is my last reply to you specifically because your logic confuses me. It also wastes precious time that I could be using to fart quietly between patients. I have given you an alternative. I wrote it directly to you one of the other few thousand times that you asked for an alternative. You can search for that post yourself because it makes ZERO sense for me to retype it every single time your battle with tourette syndrome causes you to scream out “What is an alternative!!?” I have to give you credit though, it is much better than screaming “Timmy!” like a SouthPark character so I guess I am proud of you.

OK, one more post – the “WMD was the only rationale” argument is annoying – but this is it.

The 4 main rationales were: WMD, Saddam’s terrorism ties (and of course, the interplay of those first two concerns), geopolitical considerations (including Mid-east long-term stability and removing our troops from Saudi Arabia (holy ground for Islam), and promotion of democracy/Saddam’s torture/mistreatment of his people:

Why we fight – and why we need to be clear about it
Jonah Goldberg

October 8, 2004

“By one count, President Bush offered 23 different rationales for this war,” John Kerry scoffed last month. Considering that the Kerry campaign claims their man has voted 600 times to cut taxes, there’s good reason to doubt the challenger’s counting skills. But there’s no denying that the Bush administration has offered several different rationales to bolster its case for the Iraq war.

Oh, wait, it can be denied. In fact, it’s being denied zealously now that the Iraqi Survey Group has concluded in its final report that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction when we invaded. The president’s critics now insist that Bush made only one case for war.

To his critics, it seems, Bush’s error is that he offered too many reasons to go to war, except when he offered too few. When the news is that no WMDs have been found, WMDs become Bush’s only reason to go to war. Back when the WMD angle had yet to be verified, the problem was that Bush offered too many rationales. Which is it?

Now, receiving as much mail as I do from Bush-haters - rational and irrational - let me anticipate an objection: Bush has offered these various rationales for the war only after it became clear that we weren’t going to find WMDs. Every time I write a column about how a democratizing and prospering Iraq is essential for victory in the war on terror, I get a dozen e-mails from anti-Bush readers saying, “If only Bush had made that argument before the war, instead of hinging it all on WMDs, I would believe that he cares about democracy now.”

But this is nonsense wrapped in myth inside propaganda. The notion that the invasion of Iraq was justified - and justifiable - solely on the WMD threat is a canard. It’s true, the administration did emphasize the WMD issue. But it’s also true that the press consistently demanded “one reason” - in Tim Russert’s words - to go to war. The WMD case was simply the most compelling one to make. Every allied intelligence agency - including France’s and Germany’s - was convinced Saddam had WMDs. As were all of the various competing agencies in our own defense-intelligence complex.

When Paul Wolfowitz told Vanity Fair in May 2003 ( U.S. Department of Defense ) that the administration settled on the WMD issue for bureaucratic reasons, opponents of the war cynically distorted the interview to make it sound like the administration wasn’t convinced about the WMD threat. What Wolfowitz was actually saying, very clearly, was that the WMD threat was the most palpable threat - the one that all the professionals could agree on it.

But that doesn’t mean that Bush didn’t offer numerous other rationales before and after the war. In major speeches he touted the importance of democratizing the Middle East. Administration officials pointed out that Saddam was the only world leader to applaud 9/11, and that he was a major source of funding for suicide bombers in Israel. They argued that removing Saddam would have a positive impact on the peace process. President Bush made a masterful case to the United Nations that, in the post-9/11 world, the world body could not afford to let a dictator - one who had gassed his own people and invaded a neighbor - flout its countless resolutions with impunity.

These rationales don’t add up to 23, but who cares if they do? What important decisions have you ever made in your life that have depended on a single variable. We don’t buy cars for a single reason. (Oh, it’s blue! I’ll take it!) Why should we launch a preemptive war for a single reason?

Of course Bush has emphasized other rationales now that we know there were no WMDs. What else is he going to do? Should he say, “Oops,” and leave Iraq to disintegrate into civil war, which will plunge the region into chaos? Or should he emphasize the other - completely legitimate and consistent - rationales for this war? If we had found WMDs, Bush would still be fighting to democratize Iraq. That we haven’t found them makes that task all the more important.

The fact is that all wars have complex and changing justifications. The bloodiest war in our nation’s history was begun as an effort to preserve the American union. The motives behind the Civil War are endlessly debated, but this much is beyond dispute: As the war dragged on - and as a chorus of naysayers bitterly denounced Lincoln’s determination - the president resolved to make freedom and individual rights central struggles of the conflict.

Those who scold President Bush for breaking “the rules” - for changing the way he makes his case for a just war - must also explain how Lincoln was wrong. They must explain how the Cold War, begun as an exercise in Realpolitik, did a disservice to those whom it eventually freed from tyranny. I, for one, will be delighted if one day we can see the Iraq war in this grand American tradition of “changing rationales” after the fighting began.

Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online, a Townhall.com member group.

Prof. X

It’s an anology that others are trying to make.

Your a Doc. If you run tests on a patient. Appear to find something and then operate, only to find out your diagnosis was wrong, based on the tests you ran, what should be done? should you be allowed to continue to operate. Maintain a liscense etc.

The anology is that Bush made a decision based on information deemed to be reliable from multiple sources and govenments. I support that.

I don’t think you can ever be certain unless you are attacked outright such as during 9/11.

Bye the way, not that you care, I am glad you disagree. Opposition keeps both sides honest. It’s those that have no opinion, other then to complain, that are annoying and to me irrelevant.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

How many people would have died had Bush ‘told the truth’? [/quote]

But he didn’t.

Nope, hold on before you start typing again…he DID NOT. I know that hurts to admit but letting it go will make you feel so much better. It can get kind of stressful with that elephant sitting on your chest.

“Whoo-sah” Come on, say it with me…

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
“We also live in times where a fat, lying slob can make millions of dollars and win a people’s choice award for a steaming dung heap of a movie.”
-me January 13, 2005[/quote]

This is precisely why I ended with the MM quote. Pure genius if you ask me… I know that’s stretching a bit.

This administration has not delivered on ANYTHING… period.

The irony is that this current administration can outright lie, fabricate intelligence, ignore pre-war expert strategy, show complete incompetence in execution, get caught torturing prisoners, underarm our troops (but still spend $5 BILLION A MONTH), put us into the largest debt in US history and piss-off the ENTIRE REST OF THE WORLD… yet one mention of Michael Moore and this mythical “liberal media” and the fanatical right go BALLISTIC.

It’s like catching your wife cheating on you for the 12th time but hating your neighbor because he’s the one who first told you what was going on.

Has anyone checked FOX News for subliminal messaging, BTW? It’s one thing to be loyal to your party but at some point it becomes a mental illness.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Prof. X

It’s an anology that others are trying to make.

The anology is that Bush made a decision based on information deemed to be reliable from multiple sources and govenments. I support that.

I don’t think you can ever be certain unless you are attacked outright such as during 9/11.

Bye the way, not that you care, I am glad you disagree. Opposition keeps both sides honest. It’s those that have no opinion, other then to complain, that are annoying and to me irrelevant.[/quote]

I can understand that. It just seems that large allowances are made in spite of this mistake simply because of party affiliation. I doubt, had Clinton been in office, that there would be so much allowed to slip as far as “what ifs”. I also doubt that had Clinton jumped into a war like this long before 9/11 that the public would have supported that decision.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:

How many people would have died had Bush ‘told the truth’?

But he didn’t.

Nope, hold on before you start typing again…he DID NOT. I know that hurts to admit but letting it go will make you feel so much better. It can get kind of stressful with that elephant sitting on your chest.

“Whoo-sah” Come on, say it with me…[/quote]

Ahhhh…there it is - “but he didn’t”. It’s the stalemate that we’ve been at since we invaded.

I don’t fault him for having the cajones to stand up and do what he thought was right. You do. You want me to admit he was wrong and deserves to be blamed for it, and I won’t.

Before the finger pointing starts and the tangents begin - it was a collective ‘you and I’ not an individual accusation.

This administration has not delivered on ANYTHING… period.

what do you mean hasn’t delivered on anything ? i got a $600 tax refund back in 2000.

Okay, everyone presumably can admit that Bush was wrong. There is the question of whether or not he knew it, which is fairly important.

However, there are more than two positions to consider. You can also be wrong by sticking to a conclusion you want or by ignoring evidence that does not support your conclusion.

If either of these situations exist, it is far different than going with the best intelligence. It becomes willful negligence – which is a far different animal and is not the same as lying.

Now, I may be mistaken, but I tend to believe that Bush had a decision or plan or objective and he cherry-picked information to support this objective. This falls into my willful negligence scenario but is not outright lying.

And yes, there can be a billion alternative reasons, but only one was serious enough to enable a war. This was the issue of WMD’s. Without this one issue, all the other issues pale and war wouldn’t have been approved.

P.S. Nice call upfront about JeffR asking for alternatives. If only he wouldn’t post like a seven year old cheerleader it would be so much easier to tolerate his posts.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Oh, and before anyone claims that weapons were found, we aren’t talking about the ones they got from us. We are talking about the ability to use long range “weapons of Mass Destruction”.[/quote]

I remember there was speculation a while back that some WMD’s were found but the fact that they were OURS was more embarrasing than not finding them at all. Maybe you heard that as well?

Prof, it’s funny how everyone on the right called F-911 a “lie fest” when most didn’t or refused to see it. You could say it was bias against Bush but it WAS NOT full of lies. Like yourself, many people didn’t need to see the movie to see what was actually going on. For people who weren’t ‘net’ savvy, it was a great tool to get people thinking about what was really going on in contrast to the mainstream news.

The clip of Bush continuing to sit reading in the classroom after being told “America is under attack” is worth 10,000 words. (I’m sure you’ve already seen it on the web) Moore didn’t edit the clip to make it look worse and he wasn’t the one to film it, but it is in his movie. It’s the one thing they don’t want the masses to see. They can spin the reason why he sat there all they want and people will buy it, but it’s hard to buy the spin after you’ve seen it.

This is the same kind of stuff the ‘liberal mainstream media’ that’s ‘out to get Bush’ can’t seem to bring themselves to use in their all-out-assault to discredit the administration : o

Why haven’t they sued Moore for slander or character deformation? Obviously it swayed millions of people with outrageous lies and almost cost him a second term… actors sue tabloids all the time for false stories. I think the right should rally behind this and get it all out in the open. How bout’ it? ; )

P.O.X. wrote:

“This is my last reply to you specifically because your logic confuses me. It also wastes precious time that I could be using to fart quietly between patients. I have given you an alternative. I wrote it directly to you one of the other few thousand times that you asked for an alternative. You can search for that post yourself because it makes ZERO sense for me to retype it every single time your battle with tourette syndrome causes you to scream out “What is an alternative!!?” I have to give you credit though, it is much better than screaming “Timmy!” like a SouthPark character so I guess I am proud of you.”

You are priceless!!!

I looked through the recent Iraq War: Any Alternatives thread. I’m sorry, I didn’t see any P.O.X. posts. If you have written an alternative on another thread, would you kindly enlighten me?

I did search some of your other posts in my quest for a viable alternative to our current policy in Iraq. I didn’t find anything remotely resembling an alternative to the Iraq War. However, I did stumble across this gem:

P.O.X. wrote:

“There is nothing that scares white people more than an angry loud big black dude.”

Really?

I didn’t know people could judge an entire race.

It might be time to stop trying to fart, breathe, and type at the same time. I’ll bet YOU will be less confused.

Thanks!!!

JeffR

P.S. Thanks for not answering my question about voting. It speaks volumes.

P.S.S. Four more years!!!

I often try to keep my mouth shut when it comes to politics. Mainly because both sides are full of lying, cheating scum that I would not trust to lead a field trip to the Science museum. Also, because I wish to pursue a career as either an Officer in my beloved Marine Corps, or as a Federal Law enforcement officer. That being said, the news that we are stopping the search for WMD’s should not come as that big of a surprise. In addition, in the big picture it does not matter.
In regards to domestic politics, President Bush will not be impeached or discredited anymore than what people already believe, if at all. In addition, since he has already been elected, his “lies” or “mass conspiracies” have already apparently occurred. Furthermore, society as a whole only believes what it sees on TV. The vast majority of people are sheep that will be lead by people who are unworthy to do so. In fact, it is my firm opinion that politicians are not leaders. Granted they do make important decisions, but I believe a leader must inspire, lead by example, and always from the front. I believe that in order for today’s politician to be successful, he or she cannot do any of the above. Sorry for the rant. I will end with this.
Regardless of why we went into Iraq, we are stuck there now. So perhaps society and our leaders should begin to find a way to extract ourselves from this precarious situation. Because if not, we will see that it will cost many more American, Polish, Ukrainian, Iraqi, and whoever else is involved lives.

[quote]vroom wrote:
P.S. Nice call upfront about JeffR asking for alternatives. If only he wouldn’t post like a seven year old cheerleader it would be so much easier to tolerate his posts.[/quote]

You mean you actually read them???

Below are excerpts from, in my opinion, the best summary report of the REAL reasons for being in Iraq… and it’s called oddly enough:

The Real Reasons for the Upcoming War With Iraq
[i]A Macroeconomic and Geostrategic Analysis of the Unspoken Truth

by William Clark - Jan 2003[/i]

Summary
Although completely unreported by the U.S. media and government, the answer to the Iraq enigma is simple yet shocking – it is in large part an oil currency war. One of the core reasons for this upcoming war is this administration’s goal of preventing further Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) momentum towards the euro as an oil transaction currency standard. However, in order to pre-empt OPEC, they need to gain geo-strategic control of Iraq along with its 2nd largest proven oil reserves. The second coalescing factor that is driving the Iraq war is the quiet acknowledgement by respected oil geologists and possibly this administration is the impending phenomenon known as Global “Peak Oil.” This is projected to occur around 2010, with Iraq and Saudi Arabia being the final two nations to reach peak oil production.


"The Federal Reserve’s greatest nightmare is that OPEC will switch its international transactions from a dollar standard to a euro standard. Iraq actually made this switch in Nov. 2000 (when the euro was worth around 82 cents), and has actually made off like a bandit considering the dollar’s steady depreciation against the euro. (Note: the dollar declined 17% against the euro in 2002.)

“The real reason the Bush administration wants a puppet government in Iraq – or more importantly, the reason why the corporate-military-industrial network conglomerate wants a puppet government in Iraq – is so that it will revert back to a dollar standard and stay that way.” (While also hoping to veto any wider OPEC momentum towards the euro, especially from Iran – the 2nd largest OPEC producer who is actively discussing a switch to euros for its oil exports)."


Regardless of whatever Dr. Blix finds or does not find in Iraq regarding WMD, it appears that President Bush is determined to pursue his `pre-emptive’ imperialist war to secure a large portion of the earth’s remaining hydrocarbons, and ultimately use Iraq’s underutilized oil to destroy the OPEC cartel. Will this gamble work? That remains to be seen. However, the history of warfare is replete with unintended consequences. It is plausible that the aftermath of the Iraq war and a U.S. occupation of Iraq could increase Al-Qaeda sponsored terrorism against U.S. targets, or more likely create guerilla warfare in a post-war Iraq. Moreover, continued U.S. unilateralism could create economic retribution from the international community or OPEC.

The question we as Americans must ask – Can the US military control by force all oil-producing nations and dictate their oil export transaction currency? In brief, the answer is no. Will we forfeit any pretense of practicing free-market capitalism while we enforce a military command economy for global oil transactions? Is it morally defensible to deploy our brave but naive young soldiers around the globe to enforce U.S. dollar hegemony for global oil transactions via the barrels of their guns? Will we allow imperialist conquest of the Middle East to feed our excessive oil consumption, while ignoring the duplicitous overthrowing of a democratically elected government in Latin America? Is it acceptable for a U.S. President to threaten military force upon OPEC nation state(s) because of their sovereign choice of currency regarding their oil exports? I concur with Dr. Peter Dale Scott’s sentiments on this question:

[i]“. . . hopefully decent Americans will protest the notion that it is appropriate to rain missiles and bombs upon civilians of another country, who have had little or nothing to do with this (financial) crisis of America’s own making.”

"A multilateral approach to these core problems is the only way to proceed. The US is strong enough to dominate the world militarily. Economically it is in decline, less and less competitive, and increasingly in debt. The Bush peoples’ intention appears to be to override economic realities with military ones, as if there were no risk of economic retribution. They should be mindful of Britain’s humiliating retreat from Suez in 1956, a retreat forced on it by the United States as a condition for propping up the failing British pound.[/i]

Lastly, how can we effectively thwart the threat of international Al Qaeda terrorism if we alienate so many of our European allies?

Paradoxically, this administration’s flawed economic policies and belligerent foreign policies may hasten the outcome they hope to prevent – further OPEC momentum towards the euro. Furthermore, using U.S. military and/or the threat of force is a rather unwieldy instrument for Geostrategy, and as such it is unlikely to indefinitely thwart some OPEC members from acting on their internal discussions' regarding a switch to euros. Informed U.S. patriots realize this administration's failed economic policies in conjunction with their militant Imperialist overreach is proving not only detrimental to our international stature, but also threatens our economy and civil liberties. Thus, remaining silent is not only misguided, but false patriotism. We must not stand silent and watch our country continue these imperialist policies. The US must not become an isolated rogue’ superpower, relying on brute force, thereby motivating other nations to abandon the dollar standard – and with the mere stroke of a pen – slay our superpower status?

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html

It is a lengthy read but it’s worth it for the Ah-ha factor. It’s amazing how prophetic these pre-war analysis reports are. It has been updated with post-war comments as well.

OPEC Dumps the Dollar
NewsMax Wires
Tuesday, Dec. 7, 2004

Quietly but with malice, OPEC cartel nations have been dumping the U.S. dollar over the past three years, according to the Bank for International Settlements (BIS).

The dollar has been falling dramatically in recent years – reaching new lows against the Euro and other currencies.

[quote]vroom wrote:
ProfX,

I hear you. I know I’ve been “blasted” for saying that the war was sold on weapons of mass destruction before. Given the quotes above I don’t know how people can believe it wasn’t.

Sure, there are all kinds of other reasons, at least now, but they were not “the reason” why the country went to war. They were not “sold” to the public or to congress as a reason to authorize the war.[/quote]

Vroom,

That’s the root of the problem don’t you agree? All the reasons given for going into Iraq MAY have been valid in varying degrees. The problem was this administration squandered all their credibility with this story and that story, BUT DEFINITELY NOT OIL.

The analysis report from my last post is the ONLY story that makes perfect sense and ties all the events over the last 3 yrs together… from the “Secret” Energy Task Committee to the war to the present day, ever declining dollar falling out of favor.

They have never been up front about anything so nobody trusts them anymore… at least if they were more competent things might not be so obvious, so then it’s condesending when they keep saying how great everything’s going.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:

They have never been up front about anything so nobody trusts them anymore… at least if they were more competent things might not be so obvious, so then it’s condesending when they keep saying how great everything’s going.[/quote]

I personally think this will eventually be recorded in history as one of the greatest, and most costly, farces to date. I don’t think people will actually see it for what it is worth until enough time passes that current party affiliations lose the trendy “fraternity” aspect that seems to keep perspective closed on the subject. We were lied to. All of us. The only reason weapons weren’t flown into Iraq just so we could “find” them later is probably due to the strangle hold the media has on nearly every event that occurs. If this were 1960, I am sure stockpiles upon stockpiles would have been found. That is just my take on the situation.

It has been 4 years and Bin Laden has still not been caught and the only person of note in jail is Saddam…yet there are MORE people being killed now. Is that really success? Do even the republicans on this board truly care that much about democracy in Iraq? You all were giving to Iraq charities long before 9/11? You all adopted an Iraqi orphan for 35 cents a day? I am truly trying to comprehend the mentality that allows this to be completely justified.

It took this many deaths of our soldiers just to catch Saddam in a rat hole? Was it worth it? I mean, honestly has it been worth all of this? What has been the benefit? Less “terror”? Not one other reason BUT WMD’s justifies this action completely. yet we should focus on Clinton not doing something about this? The general public would have actually gone along with turning our backs on the UN in, say, 1998 so we could go to war? I don’t think so.

Facts,

While I’m happy with my beliefs concerning the sales pitch issue and possible cherry-picking of information, I’m not able to decide on any ulterior motives.

Frankly, I understand the concepts of greed and power, but I either don’t believe or choose not to believe that the governance of the US is driven by commercial interests to that degree.

I have no real theory as to why things were done the way they were done, and perhaps yours is as good as any other, but it isn’t something I am able to claim.

If you want to explore theories, perhaps there are secret dealings between the Saudi’s and the US or between other regional power brokers and the US. I wouldn’t begin to have an inkling of what any deals could represent, but if you are looking for shady deals, look to the people that have the money and power.

Anyway, beyond the sales pitch and cherry-picking I think my opinion is moderate. I really have no idea and haven’t seen information that would have me endorse any theory.

If you did want to go beyond the concept of cherry-picking, towards lies, it does immediately lead you to question why. However, even then, there could be an extremely simple explanation.

Just the Facts, ProffX,

I just wanted to express how much I admire and value your input here! I very much agree with both of your views on this topic.

To me this is not republican or democrat. I would be just as angry if this whole action had been carried out by a John Kerry or Bill Clinton. For me the insult are the lies and deception and taking the American people as gullible fools who would by the imminent threat story as a whole country without question!

A couple of things.

First, I am going to conduct an experiment and start a website that claims that aliens are behind the war in Iraq just so I can enjoy JustThe Facts posting it on this site as credible information. That would be a hoot.

Second, as several have said, this information has been beat to death. I would only add that the multiple reasons for going to war with Iraq are not only laid out in Bush’s various speeches but also in the text of Resolution 1441…

…JTF, I don’t know if they post legitimate international documents on www.aliensatemybrain.com, but here is a copy of that text:

You can read for yourself that the list of transgressions the international community were concerned about included, but were not limited to, WMD.

Second, the disagreement among the deciding nations was not whether Saddam Hussein had WMD, but whether we should we should give him more time to comply (per Boston’s point).

Third, as for Bush ‘lying’ - was Lincoln lying when he started the Civil War to preserve the Union but later announced its primary goal was to end the institution of slavery? You know, Lincoln’s on Mount Rushmore and he has his own titanic memorial in DC. I wonder if he’s gotten such royal treatment if the masses had known that…wait for it…“Lincoln lied!!! Thousands died!!!”

It’s simple in my view - Saddam bluffed, we called.

Whether there were WMDs there is unimportant - what was more important was threat of WMDs. Intel at the time suggested Saddam hadn’t complied, and Saddam postured like he was spear-tipped with germ-loaded missiles and other goodies. Why the stupid bluff? Who knows, who cares. I suspect it has something to do with believing no one would ever pull his card for his actions - the UN certainly made sure of that, but also other countries, including at times, the US.

Fatal error - Saddam pulled a bluff in the post-9/11 era with a President playing for keeps.