Religulous: The Movie

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I haven’t seen the movie, but daily interaction with the world shows me that PEOPLE IN GENERAL do dumb things.

I am not sure why anyone with a working mind would think this stops in the realm of religion. Likewise, accusing the religion itself in all cases because dumb people exist is wrong unless the religion itself (in texts) promoted that behavior.

Good point.

But certain religions do promote violence, even though they claim to be peaceful (at least, this is what I have read in research).

The big thing for me is inconsistency in texts of “holy” books. If people want to follow their religious beliefs that is absoutely fine, but don’t bloody cherry pick what you like out of the book.

If religion was completely non-violent, even against it, well that would be another story - but I don’t want to see this planet destroyed because some idiot set off an A-bomb because someone else didn’t subscribe to their beliefs.[/quote]

Hopefully you realize that these Holy Texts are often the combination of many different works from many different authors. The Bible is filled with allegory which has the unfortunate effect of being vague, artistic, and poetic which leaves it very open to interpretation.

If you add in the fact that there is clearly a difference in the Bible between the Old and New testaments, it leaves it equally open to cherry picking by those who wish to criticize it. I would assume other texts in other religions are similar.

You can’t criticize works like that effectively without studying them in detail…which most people don’t/won’t do.

I am not one of those who thinks every single word written in The Bible is literal. That makes using the words of some loon who thinks the Earth was literally created on a Monday (as if our concept of days existed since all we are marking is our own rotation against the sun) a tad disingenuous if the goal is actually understanding.

That’s about as far as I’m going on this topic.

I am still surprised I had to define “denial” for someone.

62

Again, I agree.

Yes, I do realize that, The Bible, for example is a collection of books written over many years by many people (men, most likely). This is what causes all the inconsitencies - there is a lot of conflicting information in there.

The problem is people who take these poetic and artistic texts too literally, mix things up to suite them and then spread their misinformed interpretation.

63

[quote]MeinHerzBrennt wrote:
Please provide sources then.
I’m gonna do some searching myself to see if I can find more on this.[/quote]

Good, I’m glad to see you are going to do research of your own on this, since you ask me for a source when your only one is a lame movie.

In your research you should find that any self respecting modern scholar will say you are foolish to any longer use parallels between mythology and the Jesus of Christianity. Scholars have proven these claims to be false.

Most of the claims are spurious at best. Much of it was debunked simply by the date of the writings, which wasn’t hard to find out, like I said, people that continue bringing this up are either ill-informed or just lying. The fact is, that the myths were borrowing from the Jews and or Chrsitians, not the other way around.

Please provide excerpts from the pagan source materials and their date of writing, otherwise the argument has ended; just like it did one hundred years ago.

64

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I haven’t seen the movie, but daily interaction with the world shows me that PEOPLE IN GENERAL do dumb things.

I am not sure why anyone with a working mind would think this stops in the realm of religion. Likewise, accusing the religion itself in all cases because dumb people exist is wrong unless the religion itself (in texts) promoted that behavior.

Good point.

But certain religions do promote violence, [/quote]

Certain interpretations of certain religions “do promote” violence.

Explain.

Is what “they claim” deceit or do are “they” simply too stupid to do research on their own?

What are you? The religious police?

Non-violence is a sine qua none condition to Human progress. And it is because the vast majority acknowledges that that we are at this stage of development. Would we be further without religion? I’m not sure. Every major conflict I can think off was always about power and/or money. Religion was, more often than not, merely used as a motive to rally the masses.

Religion doesn’t turn people into hysteric murderers anymore than video games or cannabis. Blame the violent jackasses, not thousand years old ideologies.

The most powerful A-bomb built to date had a few hundreds megatons. That’s a couple of dozen times more than the gadgets the US dropped on Japan, but not nearly enough to destroy a metropole. Not even by a long shot.

The idea that a bomb could destroy the planet derives from Hollywood trying to make a buck. At your age, you should be able to distinguish between fact and fiction.

65

[quote]lixy wrote:
The most powerful A-bomb built to date had a few hundreds megatons. That’s a couple of dozen times more than the gadgets the US dropped on Japan, but not nearly enough to destroy a metropole. Not even by a long shot.[/quote]

We could easily make this planet uninhabitable with the weapons some countries have, what with that nuclear fallout and whatnot.

66

[quote]lixy wrote:
The most powerful A-bomb built to date had a few hundreds megatons. That’s a couple of dozen times more than the gadgets the US dropped on Japan, but not nearly enough to destroy a metropole. Not even by a long shot.[/quote]

We could easily make this planet uninhabitable with the weapons some countries have, what with that nuclear fallout and whatnot.

67

[quote]Makavali wrote:
lixy wrote:
The most powerful A-bomb built to date had a few hundreds megatons. That’s a couple of dozen times more than the gadgets the US dropped on Japan, but not nearly enough to destroy a metropole. Not even by a long shot.

We could easily make this planet uninhabitable with the weapons some countries have, what with that nuclear fallout and whatnot.[/quote]

For the 7 billion that we are, I personally believe it already borders on “uninhabitable”.

And let’s be specific here: The “some countries” are the US and Russia. Both of which have big and powerful enough armies to be (more or less) hegemonic without resorting to nukes.

Can we please stop worrying about potential destruction and pay some attention to the one ongoing as we speak?

68

I don’t know why you’re so tense about this Lixy, but:

Modern ICBMs will wipe out the average Metropolis without breaking a sweat.

And just because the earth won’t break like some rotten egg doesn’t mean full scale nuclear war can very well mean an end to all higher species.

69

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I don’t know why you’re so tense about this Lixy, [/quote]

Now that you mention it, I did watch Obama’s speech today.

The argument was about an “A-bomb”.

But no, I don’t believe modern ICBMs have the ability to wipe out a metropole. Go ask a hibakusha.

Again, the argument was about an idiot setting off an A-bomb.

But even if the nuclear powers, in a coordinated effort, tried to wipe us out as a species, they’re most likely to fail.

Remember, pop culture and/or propaganda make for a poor source of information.

70

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…“denial” is equal to “disbelief”?

Are we really playing this game?

de-ni-al

?noun

  1. an assertion that something said, believed, alleged, etc., is false: Despite his denials, we knew he had taken the purse. The politician issued a denial of his opponent’s charges.
  2. refusal to believe a doctrine, theory, or the like.
  3. disbelief in the existence or reality of a thing.
  4. the refusal to satisfy a claim, request, desire, etc., or the refusal of a person making it.
  5. refusal to recognize or acknowledge; a disowning or disavowal: the traitor’s denial of his country; Peter’s denial of Christ.

So when you claim this does not equal an “active disbelief”, you are indeed wrong.

…the question whether god exists can’t be answered, but what we have to deal with are the actions of those who do believe. Actions believers justify by pointing at their holy books and their sacred beliefs, the very actions Bill Maher made this movie about; it’s stupidity and our ultimate downfall…

I haven’t seen the movie, but daily interaction with the world shows me that PEOPLE IN GENERAL do dumb things.

I am not sure why anyone with a working mind would think this stops in the realm of religion. Likewise, accusing the religion itself in all cases because dumb people exist is wrong unless the religion itself (in texts) promoted that behavior.

[/quote]

…i already admitted that some atheists may indeed actively disbelief the existence of god. That doesn’t mean that all atheists actively disbelief in god, inspite of what you choose to believe. Out of 5 definitions of the word, you’ve picked one that proves me wrong when the other 4 say nothing of the sort. It doesn’t surprise me that you pick and choose whatever supports your beliefs, it’s what all believers do in the end…

…then you go on with the same old and tired excuse that religion in itself does nothing. Like the saying, “a gun doesn’t kill people, people kill people”, you deny the intent of why religion exists in the first place. Just like a gun was made to kill, religion was invented to control and manipulate the masses into doing what they otherwise would not do, or would not do as readily, without the excuse of religion…

…the general stupidity of mankind is exacerbated by religion. You don’t have to be a genius to see that, just untethered to bronze age superstition. Religious belief is, imo, a sign of mental and intellectual immaturity if that belief is not projected inwards, like mystics do, but superimposed on society as a whole as an infallable truth…

71

[quote]Bondslave wrote:
MeinHerzBrennt wrote:
Please provide sources then.
I’m gonna do some searching myself to see if I can find more on this.

Good, I’m glad to see you are going to do research of your own on this, since you ask me for a source when your only one is a lame movie.

In your research you should find that any self respecting modern scholar will say you are foolish to any longer use parallels between mythology and the Jesus of Christianity. Scholars have proven these claims to be false.

Most of the claims are spurious at best. Much of it was debunked simply by the date of the writings, which wasn’t hard to find out, like I said, people that continue bringing this up are either ill-informed or just lying. The fact is, that the myths were borrowing from the Jews and or Chrsitians, not the other way around.

Please provide excerpts from the pagan source materials and their date of writing, otherwise the argument has ended; just like it did one hundred years ago.[/quote]

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh

…if you believe that the earth is 6000 years old, it’s impossible to accept that our history goes back much further than that, and that therefore the christian myths are derivatives of older creation stories and beliefs. The parallels are undeniable. I’m not saying you believe in a young earth, but after the last ice age ended, some 12000 years ago, and people developed agriculture, they also found something new: leisure time…

…what are you going to do during long winter nights with a full belly? You tell stories. Some of those stories made it into lore and myth, and long thereafter made it into the bible. It’s fascinating really how our minds work. If only we put it to good use…

72

[quote]lixy wrote:
Religion doesn’t turn people into hysteric murderers anymore than video games or cannabis. Blame the violent jackasses, not thousand years old ideologies.
[/quote]

LOL, how many video gamers and stoners do you see suicide bombing people for no logical reason?

[quote]
The most powerful A-bomb built to date had a few hundreds megatons. That’s a couple of dozen times more than the gadgets the US dropped on Japan, but not nearly enough to destroy a metropole. Not even by a long shot.

The idea that a bomb could destroy the planet derives from Hollywood trying to make a buck. At your age, you should be able to distinguish between fact and fiction.[/quote]

If any country was to nuke another, it would most likely lead to a world war. This would mean all sorts of nasty warfare would emerge as countries show off their latest in military technology. It would not be pretty - you’d be a fool not to admit that.

73

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
lixy wrote:
Religion doesn’t turn people into hysteric murderers anymore than video games or cannabis. Blame the violent jackasses, not thousand years old ideologies.

LOL, how many video gamers and stoners do you see suicide bombing people for no logical reason?
[/quote]

School- and mallshootings have been a craze in western world for a decade now and many of the perpetrarors can be said to have been avid video gamers and sometimes stoners. Not that it explains anything, but especially video games have been accused to be a cause for these acts of violence.

74

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
lixy wrote:
Religion doesn’t turn people into hysteric murderers anymore than video games or cannabis. Blame the violent jackasses, not thousand years old ideologies.

LOL, how many video gamers and stoners do you see suicide bombing people for no logical reason?

School- and mallshootings have been a craze in western world for a decade now and many of the perpetrarors can be said to have been avid video gamers and sometimes stoners. Not that it explains anything, but especially video games have been accused to be a cause for these acts of violence.[/quote]

Most of those school killings are due to bullying, I played hours upon hours of doom and quake when I was younger, while getting high and listening to metal - that does not make you a killer.

Those people just have screws loose, and lose it somewhere along the way; weird loners that play hours of games in their spare time, and then one day just snap. If I was to shoot up a school, it sure as hell wouldn’t be because I was playing too many video games, but more likely because people there pissed me off enough to do so - you’d have to be psycho.

Suicide bombing, on the other hand, has completely different motives. Brainwashed morons who think they are doing their religion justice and their god a favour. Come on.

75

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
kaaleppi wrote:

School- and mallshootings have been a craze in western world for a decade now and many of the perpetrarors can be said to have been avid video gamers and sometimes stoners. Not that it explains anything, but especially video games have been accused to be a cause for these acts of violence.

Most of those school killings are due to bullying, I played hours upon hours of doom and quake when I was younger, while getting high and listening to metal - that does not make you a killer.

Those people just have screws loose, and lose it somewhere along the way; weird loners that play hours of games in their spare time, and then one day just snap. If I was to shoot up a school, it sure as hell wouldn’t be because I was playing too many video games, but more likely because people there pissed me off enough to do so - you’d have to be psycho.

Suicide bombing, on the other hand, has completely different motives. Brainwashed morons who think they are doing their religion justice and their god a favour. Come on.[/quote]

I agree with your sentiment and I don’t blame video games, that’s absurd, but I think you are wrong about the actions of school shooters. There is nothing haphazard in their actions, many of them have planned it for a couple of years. They act rationally to achieve their goal, which grantedly is crazy.
We don’t know the motives of individual suicide bombers, but I suspect the spectre is too vide to be effectively captured with a word like brainwashed. Moron on the other hand is accurate and applicable to every single case, including school shooters.

76

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
kaaleppi wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
lixy wrote:
Religion doesn’t turn people into hysteric murderers anymore than video games or cannabis. Blame the violent jackasses, not thousand years old ideologies.

LOL, how many video gamers and stoners do you see suicide bombing people for no logical reason?

School- and mallshootings have been a craze in western world for a decade now and many of the perpetrarors can be said to have been avid video gamers and sometimes stoners. Not that it explains anything, but especially video games have been accused to be a cause for these acts of violence.

Most of those school killings are due to bullying, I played hours upon hours of doom and quake when I was younger, while getting high and listening to metal - that does not make you a killer.[/quote]

I prayed “hours upon hours” to God, and spent a considerable amount of time reading Holy Text. That does not make me a killer either.

Bingo!

Same exact thing can be said about religion.

Why the fixation to distinguish suicide bombing from other forms of bombing or violence?

The problem, in case you missed it, is not religion. It’s the “brainwashed morons” and those who make them do their biding. There are brainwashed morons who think they are doing their country justice and their leaders a favour. Others think they doing their family justice. Heck, it could even be argued that Hitler thought he was doing the Human Race a favour.

You don’t like religion? Fine! A good deal can be said against many religious practices, how they repulse you and how you feel superior to the ones who engage in them. No need to make up silly doomsday scenarios and blaming religion for them. That makes about as much sense as blaming physics for that A-bomb potentially detonating.

Edit’d: wrong pronoun.

77

I agree with most of what you said there Lixy.

I didn’t mean to focus on suicide bombings, it’s just one example I happened to pick.

I absolutely do not feel superior to anyone who engages in religion, it’s not always a choice people make, but at the end of the day as long as they are happy with it then so am I.

However I honestly do feel that if a modern day world war was to break out, religion would have a lot to do with it.

They all have many similarities, why not just get along.

78

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
“There are no atheists in foxholes”

http://www.ffrf.org/foxholes/

There are PLENTY of military personnel and officers who lack belief in God.

That quote isn’t referencing whether atheists exist or not in the military. Also, that website you linked is AMAZING. How does being an atheist make one a “free thinker”? Someone firm in their belief that there is no higher intelligence in the entire universe beyond human potential isn’t doing any more “free” thinking outside of that possibility.

If anything, agnostics would earn that title.

…it’s a general misconception that an atheist has an active belief that [a] god does not exist. Atheists lack the belief that god exists, nothing more. Believing in a negative is nonsense…

“Lacking the belief” that the earth is flat is the same as believing it isn’t flat.

We can play with semantics some more if you would like.

One thing that website linked made very clear is that some atheists believe their “lack of belief” makes them “free thinkers”.

One can assume this means they hold the thought that people who do believe in a higher intelligence are not free thinkers or, at some extreme end, are less intelligent/thoughtful than atheists.

You make it seem like there are no atheists who have an extreme DISbelief in God that rivals religion.[/quote]

Yup, and the worst thing about the “new atheists” is that they proselytize more than almost any Christians I can think of.

79

I’ve read that suicide bombings are pretty exclusive to occupied countries. I’m sure religion is a factor, but there seems to be more phych to it then that.

80

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
“There are no atheists in foxholes”

http://www.ffrf.org/foxholes/

There are PLENTY of military personnel and officers who lack belief in God.

That quote isn’t referencing whether atheists exist or not in the military. Also, that website you linked is AMAZING. How does being an atheist make one a “free thinker”? Someone firm in their belief that there is no higher intelligence in the entire universe beyond human potential isn’t doing any more “free” thinking outside of that possibility.

If anything, agnostics would earn that title.

…it’s a general misconception that an atheist has an active belief that [a] god does not exist. Atheists lack the belief that god exists, nothing more. Believing in a negative is nonsense…

“Lacking the belief” that the earth is flat is the same as believing it isn’t flat.

We can play with semantics some more if you would like.

One thing that website linked made very clear is that some atheists believe their “lack of belief” makes them “free thinkers”.

One can assume this means they hold the thought that people who do believe in a higher intelligence are not free thinkers or, at some extreme end, are less intelligent/thoughtful than atheists.

You make it seem like there are no atheists who have an extreme DISbelief in God that rivals religion.

Yup, and the worst thing about the “new atheists” is that they proselytize more than almost any Christians I can think of.[/quote]

Christians have been doing it far longer. It’s about time someone spoke up in opposition. I’m glad they are being more vocal.