[quote]SexMachine wrote:
BTW just about the earliest bible history is supported by archaeology and hieroglyphics. [/quote]
Is there any support for the divinity claims outside of the bible?
[/quote]
There is no factual evidence to be found in the Bible or outside of it. It is all perception, interpretation and hearsay. Even if Jesus existed and he performed the miracles attributed to him the witnesses to those miracles still had to interpret that evidence as proof he was the son of God. In other words, their belief was still based on faith. [/quote]
There is definitely factual evidence that Jesus existed. For example, the Romans recorded that on the Passover feast (I forget the actual year, but it was around 30 AD, obviously they didn’t refer to it as 30 AD) a man named Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. There are a number of other non-religious sources from this time that refer to an itinerant prophet named Jesus as well. The scholarly community, not just the religious community, pretty widely accept that there definitely was a historical figure that matches the description of Jesus at that time. Where people obviously differ is in their opinion of whether he was divine or not.
[quote]pat wrote:
A christian raises their children Christian, A muslim raises their kids Mulism and an atheist raises their kids atheist. These is only choice, not a lack of one. And which ever one of these you are, that is how you will bring up your kids. So in as much as a Christian pushes Christianity on their children, an Atheist pushes Atheism on their kids. I don’t think this is something anybody can honestly deny.[/quote]
How exactly do you push atheism on your kids? I was planning on skipping over that in exchange for other useful life skills. I didn’t realize I need to give them daily atheism lessons.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
BTW just about the earliest bible history is supported by archaeology and hieroglyphics. [/quote]
Is there any support for the divinity claims outside of the bible?
[/quote]
There is no factual evidence to be found in the Bible or outside of it. It is all perception, interpretation and hearsay. Even if Jesus existed and he performed the miracles attributed to him the witnesses to those miracles still had to interpret that evidence as proof he was the son of God. In other words, their belief was still based on faith. [/quote]
There is definitely factual evidence that Jesus existed. For example, the Romans recorded that on the Passover feast (I forget the actual year, but it was around 30 AD, obviously they didn’t refer to it as 30 AD) a man named Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. There are a number of other non-religious sources from this time that refer to an itinerant prophet named Jesus as well. The scholarly community, not just the religious community, pretty widely accept that there definitely was a historical figure that matches the description of Jesus at that time. Where people obviously differ is in their opinion of whether he was divine or not.[/quote]
[quote]pat wrote:
A christian raises their children Christian, A muslim raises their kids Mulism and an atheist raises their kids atheist. These is only choice, not a lack of one. And which ever one of these you are, that is how you will bring up your kids. So in as much as a Christian pushes Christianity on their children, an Atheist pushes Atheism on their kids. I don’t think this is something anybody can honestly deny.[/quote]
How exactly do you push atheism on your kids? I was planning on skipping over that in exchange for other useful life skills. I didn’t realize I need to give them daily atheism lessons.[/quote]
It is pretty easy actually.
You know all the posts that pop up in these threads with the “spaghetti monster” and other unimaginative insults in them?
Speak like that in your daily language, and go into quazi fits fo rage anytime the church or God is brought up. Like when a football player thanks Jesus for helping him score a touchdown…
[quote]pat wrote:
A christian raises their children Christian, A muslim raises their kids Mulism and an atheist raises their kids atheist. These is only choice, not a lack of one. And which ever one of these you are, that is how you will bring up your kids. So in as much as a Christian pushes Christianity on their children, an Atheist pushes Atheism on their kids. I don’t think this is something anybody can honestly deny.[/quote]
How exactly do you push atheism on your kids? I was planning on skipping over that in exchange for other useful life skills. I didn’t realize I need to give them daily atheism lessons.[/quote]
Everything you do, or not do, is a daily lesson for your kids.[/quote]
Yep.
Unless you were to make a constant, conscious effort to avoid being yourself in certain ways in front of your children, you would be “pushing” something or another on them.
The will mimic your politics, your faith, your everything. At least until they are teenagers.
That said, I believe in keeping kids relatively open. “I believe this. Other people believe that. Some day, you will have to think about it and decide.”
[quote]pat wrote:
Why do we always have questions for Christian? Why not questions for non-believers?[/quote]
Have you tried asking?[/quote]
Sure, usually in the context of the debate. Not the best forum. But it always seems that Christians are the one constantly under questioning. I was thinking out loud, why don’t we flip this around?
[quote]pat wrote:
Why do we always have questions for Christian? Why not questions for non-believers?[/quote]
You could always start a thread to that end.
[/quote]
Maybe I will. Been really busy though, couldn’t commit to the thread like I like to when I start one.
Because mostly non- believers are completely unaware of how the Middle Eastern and Mediterranean civilisations evolved and how archaeological evidence and first hand accounts of historians like Josephus make for an incredible case. But of course all these clever dicks, who are SO much smarter than us(not to mention having read the bible 114 times and rejected it) can indulge in puerile, mocking questions to add meaning to their own futile lives.[/quote]
That is a good description of what it feels like. “I know your faith better than you, but I am smart enough to know it’s bullshit and you’re to dumb to know that.”
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Ask away. I’m not here to convert you; far from it. For one I’m hopelessly unqualified. I’ll leave this thread for a while and see how it turns out. Hopefully more enlightened folk will answer your questions.[/quote]
Whats the deal with heaven what do you do all day for eternitiy? Do you have clothes, use the bathroom, watch TV?
How come animals cant get in?
What about cavemen do they get a pass?
What about aliens maybe they never heard of Jesus?
Do you eat in heaven? If so what?
If you get tired of heaven can you get re-born as something?
Are you stuck with your wife for eternity in heaven or now that your “dead” can you play the field again with dead exs and single ladies?
Do you sleep in heaven or are you up 24/7 with relatives doing what?
Wouldnt heaven run out of space at some point?
Do I get to pick my house style, car ect?
How do all the angels and saints process the volume of dead? Standing in line for a few 100 years sounds like hell.
These are things as a agnostic I think about which makes the traditional theory of a afterlife seem unbelievable…[/quote]
Didn’t know their was a ‘traditional theory’ of it. What is it?
[/quote]
So what do you (insert religion here) believe happens in heaven? What do you do for eternity?
[/quote]
Eternity? My understanding of it is that is here and now. We are part of an enternity. We interact with eternal entities all the time in metaphysics. It’s understanding that we are in it now and the reason why now matters to ‘eternity’ is because we are in it, not apart from it.
Laws, math, theory, thought, good, evil are all part and parcel of our current existence. These things won’t stop being true when I am no longer physically able to glean them.
I could go on, but basically eternity and what we think reality is, is tied together. What we do now matters in eternity because we interact with the eternal all the time. I could do a dissertation on how, but I don’t want to make a wall of words that nobody will really read.
Because mostly non- believers are completely unaware of how the Middle Eastern and Mediterranean civilisations evolved and how archaeological evidence and first hand accounts of historians like Josephus make for an incredible case. But of course all these clever dicks, who are SO much smarter than us(not to mention having read the bible 114 times and rejected it) can indulge in puerile, mocking questions to add meaning to their own futile lives.[/quote]
That is a good description of what it feels like. “I know your faith better than you, but I am smart enough to know it’s bullshit and you’re to dumb to know that.” [/quote]
I have to confess i sometimes feel a bit like this.
But in my defense, i live in a deeply de-christianized country where there is no shortage of people who don’t know their faith as well as they should.
[quote]csulli wrote:
A small mind is easily filled with faith.[/quote]
Take it from a former Militant Atheist who has grown up, still not religious, but actually mature.
You will look back at this statement in some point in your not to distant future and see it is you with the small mind making claims like the quoted above. You post like a smart enough and self aware enough person to see it one day, so I trust you will.
[/quote]
Since his post was about children, I figured he meant small as in a childs mind.
[/quote]
Yea, just referring to children. Beans is very correct though if the statement were used in that context.
That was just part of my struggle with the concept of raising children from birth into Christianity. A child’s mind is so quick to accept religion unquestioningly, but I wonder if this actually creates issues later on when they, for lack of a better phrase, gain the ability to doubt it.
Having said that, I cannot claim to have a preferable alternative. It would seem incredibly strange for Christian parents to shield their offspring against religion until they were “old enough”.[/quote]
Here’s the thing, what ever we are, whatever we believe, we impart on our children. As will as the child’s mind is, they will absorb whatever. I think it’s of paramount importance that we try to be right about what we believe.
And hey, I am the first one to want to do away with Santa, but I got out voted on that one.
But you will raise your kids to believe a certain way, it doesn’t matter what that way is, we will impart it on our children. It’s no different for the atheist as the christian.
Because mostly non- believers are completely unaware of how the Middle Eastern and Mediterranean civilisations evolved and how archaeological evidence and first hand accounts of historians like Josephus make for an incredible case. But of course all these clever dicks, who are SO much smarter than us(not to mention having read the bible 114 times and rejected it) can indulge in puerile, mocking questions to add meaning to their own futile lives.[/quote]
That is a good description of what it feels like. “I know your faith better than you, but I am smart enough to know it’s bullshit and you’re to dumb to know that.” [/quote]
I have to confess i sometimes feel a bit like this.
But in my defense, i live in a deeply de-christianized country where there is no shortage of people who don’t know their faith as well as they should.[/quote]
Well stupid christians do us no favors, as stupid atheists, and I have Dawkin’s in mind when I say this, do atheists no favors. People who claim to represent a demographic and do it poorly, help no one.
It’s best to get to know people who hold these beliefs and have a mutually respecting relationship.
I hand it to Hitchens in this respect, whose best friend was a protestant minister. An exchange of good ideas in respectful manners is beneficial to everyone, even if they don’t agree.
I am thankful for the good questions atheists have asked me in the past, so when I think about my faith I know I have to have good answers to reasonable questions.
[quote]pat wrote:
A christian raises their children Christian, A muslim raises their kids Mulism and an atheist raises their kids atheist. These is only choice, not a lack of one. And which ever one of these you are, that is how you will bring up your kids. So in as much as a Christian pushes Christianity on their children, an Atheist pushes Atheism on their kids. I don’t think this is something anybody can honestly deny.[/quote]
How exactly do you push atheism on your kids? I was planning on skipping over that in exchange for other useful life skills. I didn’t realize I need to give them daily atheism lessons.[/quote]
It is pretty easy actually.
You know all the posts that pop up in these threads with the “spaghetti monster” and other unimaginative insults in them?
Speak like that in your daily language, and go into quazi fits fo rage anytime the church or God is brought up. Like when a football player thanks Jesus for helping him score a touchdown…[/quote]
Precisely, if you disrespect people of faith and your daily life and mock their stupidity and the superiority of the way you think, you are ‘pushing’ that idea on your children. They will grow up having learn to disparage and act hateful towards religious people.
I don’t pretend to think that the average atheist doesn’t go off on religion in the privacy of their own home and in front of their kids. Maybe their kids will rebel and go to seminary, but parents plant the seeds of whatever it is they believe, into their kids. It’s unavoidable.
[quote]pat wrote:
A christian raises their children Christian, A muslim raises their kids Mulism and an atheist raises their kids atheist. These is only choice, not a lack of one. And which ever one of these you are, that is how you will bring up your kids. So in as much as a Christian pushes Christianity on their children, an Atheist pushes Atheism on their kids. I don’t think this is something anybody can honestly deny.[/quote]
How exactly do you push atheism on your kids? I was planning on skipping over that in exchange for other useful life skills. I didn’t realize I need to give them daily atheism lessons.[/quote]
Everything you do, or not do, is a daily lesson for your kids.[/quote]