Ask away. I’m not here to convert you; far from it. For one I’m hopelessly unqualified. I’ll leave this thread for a while and see how it turns out. Hopefully more enlightened folk will answer your questions.
Were you born into your religion?
Have you ever entertained the idea of dropping your own religion and taking up another? If so, why? If not, why?
Do you, or do you plan on pushing religion onto your children? I say pushing since it’s usually not a choice whether they go to Church or not. If so how do you justify it?
If you plan on waiting to give your children a choice, at what age do you think it’s appropriate?
- No
- No. “If not, why?” No need to.
- Very much so. Justify it? I don’t have to justify it, there’s no law requiring me to do so (I’d ignore it anyway). And, there is no such expectation from a godless universe (if that’s your worldview). So, nothing to justify.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
- No
- No. “If not, why?” No need to.
- Very much so. Justify it? I don’t have to justify it, there’s no law requiring me to do so (I’d ignore it anyway). And, there is no such expectation from a godless universe (if that’s your worldview). So, nothing to justify.[/quote]
How can we know what to expect from a God’ful’ universe when it’s accepted by default that we cannot know that God exists? I say so since western religion is based on not knowing, but faith.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
How can we know what to expect from a God’ful’ universe when it’s accepted by default that we cannot know that God exists? I say so since western religion is based on not knowing, but faith. [/quote]
I have no idea how YOU can “KNOW.”
I have faith and personal revelation.
What I DO KNOW is that a godless universe (dumb universe) has no moral law “thou shall not teach your children your religion.”
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
How can we know what to expect from a God’ful’ universe when it’s accepted by default that we cannot know that God exists? I say so since western religion is based on not knowing, but faith. [/quote]
I have no idea how YOU can “KNOW.”
I have faith and personal revelation.
What I DO KNOW is that a godless universe (dumb universe) has no moral law “thou shall not teach your children your religion.” [/quote]
Thats something you cannot know actually. Maybe God wants your children to find him on their own, and worship him of their own volition? Just throwing it out there…
Problem I see with your position is A, you need faith in God. And B, you need to know what God wants, when nobody knows God even exists.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Were you born into your religion?
Have you ever entertained the idea of dropping your own religion and taking up another? If so, why? If not, why?
Do you, or do you plan on pushing religion onto your children? I say pushing since it’s usually not a choice whether they go to Church or not. If so how do you justify it?
If you plan on waiting to give your children a choice, at what age do you think it’s appropriate? [/quote]
Yes, if you mean it was the religion of my family.
Dropping it, yes. For another, no. The reason is simple: faith and doubt are a package deal unless you are a fundamentalist.
Of course not. A religion that needs to be pushed onto someone must lack something to attract believers. My kids are “mine” but their souls and free will are not.
I would not put a time limit on when or if my kid chooses a religion. It’s not like if he hasn’t decided by a certain age I will decide for him. I would prefer that he follow certain moral standards and values that come from religion and whether or not he later decides to connect them to a supreme being is up to him. I suppose his dopamine levels will decide for him.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Were you born into your religion?
Have you ever entertained the idea of dropping your own religion and taking up another? If so, why? If not, why?
Do you, or do you plan on pushing religion onto your children? I say pushing since it’s usually not a choice whether they go to Church or not. If so how do you justify it?
If you plan on waiting to give your children a choice, at what age do you think it’s appropriate? [/quote]
Yes, if you mean it was the religion of my family.
Dropping it, yes. For another, no. The reason is simple: faith and doubt are a package deal unless you are a fundamentalist.
Of course not. A religion that needs to be pushed onto someone must lack something to attract believers. My kids are “mine” but their souls and free will are not.
I would not put a time limit on when or if my kid chooses a religion. It’s not like if he hasn’t decided by a certain age I will decide for him. I would prefer that he follow certain moral standards and values that come from religion and whether or not he later decides to connect them to a supreme being is up to him. I suppose his dopamine levels will decide for him. [/quote]
I respect the hell out of that. In the best way possible 
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
How can we know what to expect from a God’ful’ universe when it’s accepted by default that we cannot know that God exists? I say so since western religion is based on not knowing, but faith. [/quote]
I have no idea how YOU can “KNOW.”
I have faith and personal revelation.
What I DO KNOW is that a godless universe (dumb universe) has no moral law “thou shall not teach your children your religion.” [/quote]
Thats something you cannot know actually. Maybe God wants your children to find him on their own, and worship him of their own volition? Just throwing it out there…
Problem I see with your position is A, you need faith in God. And B, you need to know what God wants, when nobody knows God even exists.
[/quote]
“I have faith and personal revelation.”
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Maybe God wants your children to find him on their own, and worship him of their own volition?
[/quote]
You don’t believe in God.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Were you born into your religion?
Have you ever entertained the idea of dropping your own religion and taking up another? If so, why? If not, why?
Do you, or do you plan on pushing religion onto your children? I say pushing since it’s usually not a choice whether they go to Church or not. If so how do you justify it?
If you plan on waiting to give your children a choice, at what age do you think it’s appropriate? [/quote]
Yes, if you mean it was the religion of my family.
Dropping it, yes. For another, no. The reason is simple: faith and doubt are a package deal unless you are a fundamentalist.
Of course not. A religion that needs to be pushed onto someone must lack something to attract believers. My kids are “mine” but their souls and free will are not.
I would not put a time limit on when or if my kid chooses a religion. It’s not like if he hasn’t decided by a certain age I will decide for him. I would prefer that he follow certain moral standards and values that come from religion and whether or not he later decides to connect them to a supreme being is up to him. I suppose his dopamine levels will decide for him. [/quote]
Interesting. My dad did something similar to this with my family. I grew up in a catholic neighborhood within a block of one of the biggest churches in the area. He never once even suggested we go. At about 12 years old I asked him about it and he just said “It’s right there. If you want to go, go.” and that was it.
He even used to donate his services to the diocese but absolutely would not attend or suggest that we did.
I have always wondered about the situation between religion and children. I mean surely you all know how it happens for like 99% of everyone. Their parents push religion on them as children. They start having doubts in high school. They go to college and stop believing and stop going to church. They get married and have children. They push religion on their children and start going to church again because they think that’s the best way to raise their children with proper morals. And maybe they’re not wrong. I mean there are a plethora of moral lessons to be learned from church. It’s just an interesting cycle that I see.
A small mind is easily filled with faith.
[quote]csulli wrote:
A small mind is easily filled with faith.[/quote]
Not all of us can be one of you brights.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Maybe God wants your children to find him on their own, and worship him of their own volition?
[/quote]
You don’t believe in God.
[/quote]
You are correct. What I have is the comfort of knowing that if there is a God worthy of me, I will be judged by the way I live, how honest I am to myself and how good I am to others. If there is a God and he or she wants to send me to hell for not following this or that rule, then it’s a God whose endeavors are less moral than my own.
[quote]csulli wrote:
I have always wondered about the situation between religion and children. I mean surely you all know how it happens for like 99% of everyone. Their parents push religion on them as children. They start having doubts in high school. They go to college and stop believing and stop going to church. They get married and have children. They push religion on their children and start going to church again because they think that’s the best way to raise their children with proper morals. And maybe they’re not wrong. I mean there are a plethora of moral lessons to be learned from church. It’s just an interesting cycle that I see.
A small mind is easily filled with faith.[/quote]
Or a small mind doesn’t accept anything outside of it’s sensory sphere? Not attacking, but I think that’s a little rash. Faith is not built on lack of evidence. I feel that’s a misrepresentation of what faith comes down to. The thing is, my faith is not built on what I can’t explain. It’s founded on what God has done in my life, how He has moved, the evidence provided (there’s a good book called “Evidence Demands a Verdict”. An atheist set out to disprove God, and ended up accepting Christ due to the evidence he found) and the beauty of creation. I was raised in the church and left the faith in high school/college. I tried drugs, women, eastern philosophy, anarchy, etc. But when i was in a ‘desert’ of my life, God found me. The only difference was I was finally willing to listen. I’ve seen things and had experiences along with friends who follow Christ that are beyond the realm of coincidence or natural order.
As far as the children thing, I will raise my children in a house that honors God. Our children are influenced by the things around them, and I can’t agree with the belief that allowing them to follow any and every impulse before they’re old enough to choose is the right way to raise a child. Our kids go to school for 8 hours a day, watch tv for several hours, hang out with friends, go to the mall, listen to music. All of this is influence. By me deciding to completely refrain from leading and raising up my children is to submit that the world knows better what my kids need than I do. It’s not a force of choice (at least I would never force their choice), but until they’re adults, they’ll be taught the ways of the Lord and how a family honors Him.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Maybe God wants your children to find him on their own, and worship him of their own volition?
[/quote]
You don’t believe in God.
[/quote]
You are correct. What I have is the comfort of knowing that if there is a God worthy of me, I will be judged by the way I live, how honest I am to myself and how good I am to others. If there is a God and he or she wants to send me to hell for not following this or that rule, then it’s a God whose endeavors are less moral than my own. [/quote]
That’s a common approach to God and understandable. The difference with Christianity is original sin. Think of sin as a disease or virus that has spread from human to human. We chose ourselves to be God over God being God. Notice in your statement “a God worthy of me”. That determines that God is subject to you, and you are a level above your creator. With Christianity, our God saw the division sin caused. We became his enemy by saying we were going to deny His way and go our own. Christ died for us while we were still his enemy in order to reconcile us. It’s accepting that gift that matters. It’s recognizing that we aren’t God and He is. For a person who cares on whether God/Christ is real or not, it comes down to true or false: Christ lived, Christ died, Christ was raised. C.S. Lewis said that he could only be one of three things: liar, lunatic or Lord. I won’t go into depth on that, but you get the idea.
[quote]Zen Taco wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Maybe God wants your children to find him on their own, and worship him of their own volition?
[/quote]
You don’t believe in God.
[/quote]
You are correct. What I have is the comfort of knowing that if there is a God worthy of me, I will be judged by the way I live, how honest I am to myself and how good I am to others. If there is a God and he or she wants to send me to hell for not following this or that rule, then it’s a God whose endeavors are less moral than my own. [/quote]
That’s a common approach to God and understandable. The difference with Christianity is original sin. Think of sin as a disease or virus that has spread from human to human. We chose ourselves to be God over God being God. Notice in your statement “a God worthy of me”. That determines that God is subject to you, and you are a level above your creator. With Christianity, our God saw the division sin caused. We became his enemy by saying we were going to deny His way and go our own. Christ died for us while we were still his enemy in order to reconcile us. It’s accepting that gift that matters. It’s recognizing that we aren’t God and He is. For a person who cares on whether God/Christ is real or not, it comes down to true or false: Christ lived, Christ died, Christ was raised. C.S. Lewis said that he could only be one of three things: liar, lunatic or Lord. I won’t go into depth on that, but you get the idea.
[/quote]
I’m quite familiar with original sin, it’s one of the reasons I rejected Catholicism. But, I was baptized not of my own volition, Catechism and Confirmation not out of my own volition.
To punish a person for what their father did is malicious, and an all good God would be incapable of doing such, or wouldn’t be all good. Thus, he would punish me for all of eternity out of malice and maybe spite.
The way I see that is a what I describe as a fear carrot, or a whip. Do as I command, and follow my words or else you will suffer evils beyond your comprehension in hell. I can comprehend some foul shit, if it’s worse than the things I can imagine then it’s not an all good God. I have comfort in that lol.
[quote]csulli wrote:
A small mind is easily filled with faith.[/quote]
Take it from a former Militant Atheist who has grown up, still not religious, but actually mature.
You will look back at this statement in some point in your not to distant future and see it is you with the small mind making claims like the quoted above. You post like a smart enough and self aware enough person to see it one day, so I trust you will.
As for the thread, my question:
What is your most significant doubt? (Can be about anything, not necessarily your faith.)
God said he wouldn’t punish us for the sins of our fathers. It’s our own sins. We all have broken the laws. (And since you grew up in the church, I know you know this, just writing it to start my point haha)I see it as laws that are broken in a justice system. God is loving, but He’s also the Judge. A judge wouldn’t be loving to the victims of the offender if he let the offender off the hook for no reason.
We only need to break one link in the chain for it to be useless (i.e. the chain of the law). The thing is, God made us a way out through Christ. How the particulars work in the mystery of “What about the native in the middle of the jungle who never heard of Christ” I won’t pretend to know. I have my own issues with the Catholic church and doctrine haha, aka good works etc. It’s about grace and mercy.
God said, “I do not desire sacrifice, but mercy”, speaking to where our hearts are at. I consider the pharisee’s the perfect example of how a person can “act good” and follow the rules, yet be completely vicious in their heart. Hating your brother is the same as murder because murder always starts as hate.
And that sucks you were baptized and catechized not of your own volition. I won’t baptize my kids, i think the idea of baptizing a baby for it to be saved is such a distortion to what the symbol is meant to be.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
- No
- No. “If not, why?” No need to.
- Very much so. Justify it? I don’t have to justify it, there’s no law requiring me to do so (I’d ignore it anyway). And, there is no such expectation from a godless universe (if that’s your worldview). So, nothing to justify.[/quote]
How can we know what to expect from a God’ful’ universe when it’s accepted by default that we cannot know that God exists? I say so since western religion is based on not knowing, but faith. [/quote]
*** Complexity is a sure sign of design.