Religious Questions from Atheists or Agnostics

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
64

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
SexMachine, do you identify as a Deist then?
[/quote]
Absolutely not. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jakob.[/quote]

Do you follow Judaism then?[/quote]

Unless one is a Noahide(a convert), one does not ‘follow’ Judaism. One is a Jew. If you’re asking me if I am a Jew I honestly don’t know. I’m sorry but that’s a piss poor answer. If it means anything one of the world’s leading geneticists Bennett Greenspan said I have pretty much exclusively Jewish ancestry on the maternal line. This may sound anti-Semitic and it probably is but Jews in general are exclusivists(with good reason.)

Greenspan was one of the researchers who tracked down the origins of the Ashkenazi to eight woman. It is my understanding(which may be way off), that they don’t like to believe that the founding mothers may have been European.

None the less he confirmed that I was Jewish on the maternal line with the qualifier that it may date back hundreds or even thousands of years - the Spanish Inquisition(Anousim), to the slaves taken to Rome after the destruction of the Second Temple - they were later settled in Sicily, Calabria, Malta, Cyprus etc. The Israelites who never returned from the Babylonian exile. The Anousim of the Spanish Inquisition were settled in mainland Spain, the Canary Islands etc.

Does this mean I’m a Jew? If I went around the Jewish community in a Kippah claiming to be a Jew I’d be laughed off the face of the earth. I’m an Australian son of the soil who loves my country and the Lord. I hope that answers your question without you questioning my sanity. :slight_smile:

65

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

A small mind is easily filled with faith.[/quote]

Take it from a former Militant Atheist who has grown up, still not religious, but actually mature.

You will look back at this statement in some point in your not to distant future and see it is you with the small mind making claims like the quoted above. You post like a smart enough and self aware enough person to see it one day, so I trust you will.

As for the thread, my question:

What is your most significant doubt? (Can be about anything, not necessarily your faith.)[/quote]

Since his post was about children, I figured he meant small as in a childs mind.

66

[quote]Krinks wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

  1. No
  2. No. “If not, why?” No need to.
  3. Very much so. Justify it? I don’t have to justify it, there’s no law requiring me to do so (I’d ignore it anyway). And, there is no such expectation from a godless universe (if that’s your worldview). So, nothing to justify.[/quote]

How can we know what to expect from a God’ful’ universe when it’s accepted by default that we cannot know that God exists? I say so since western religion is based on not knowing, but faith. [/quote]

*** Complexity is a sure sign of design.
[/quote]

I think fine tuning, from design is one of the most compelling arguments for the existence of God. That is until you consider the possibility of life existing other than the way it is now. Some argue that things had to end up exactly the way they are now, and it’s no coincidence that things turned out the way they are in terms of the metaphysics and physics of the way the universe works. The likelyhood of things turning out the way they did is like throwing a dart blindfolded in zero gravity and hitting a bulls eye millions of miles away… I get it…

The short sightedness of that argument again, is that we only imagine life how it is, not that life could be some other sort of existence. That’s the biggest hole in fine tuning from design.

We look at things and assume intelligence, we don’t know it for a fact. This is a sort of Dogma as well.

67

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

You are correct. [/quote]

So, why opine on what my God wants?
[/quote]

It just highlights the dilemma of say Christ. The protestants say one thing, Catholics say another, Jews say another, Islam says another, yet are all religions of Abraham but lets not stray from the idea that even amongst Christian Churches there isn’t solidarity as to what God, or Jesus wants from you, what constitutes sin.

On one hand Priests and Popes are supposed to be celibate, but Popes have been made who had wives and mistresses within the Vatican, and different groups have broken off from the Church so they can have different freedoms.

So there isn’t just the dilemma of whether or not God exists, there is dilemma as to what is right and what is wrong as well. If you aren’t doing it right, with the exact right Christian religion you might be a heretic in Gods eyes. There are plenty of specific Christian religions that argue it’s their way or the hellway. Do I need to name them or when this sort of ideology was the norm? A lot of Churches relaxed this notion when it became unpopular, but who knows, maybe God want’s a certain religion and whoever made that choice was wrong? Lol, to me it’s a big circus of faith, based on faith, on top of faith. I’m a bit of an introvert, that’s the sort of shit that would drive me crazy, and if there is a God he gave me this mind to think the way I do. I think there is a reason for it.

I see it as both another dilemma, but generally when I see religions trying to fear people into following it I get a little sick to my stomach. It reminds me of being afraid of my own mind when I was a kid. Being afraid to think, because of thought sin and all that.

69

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Again, “the unforgivable sin” is a sin that God – GOD – will not forgive.[/quote]

Yep, so if at any time in your life you said, “God damned it!”

You go to hell… Even if you never understood it, if some adult convinced you as a child to say it because they thought it was cute? Maybe some evil Atheist or Agnostic is going around telling kids to say God damned it and damning them?

Hell, being a place more horrifying and heinous than we can imagine. I can imagine some big ugly bubba demon rapist having his way with you for eternity. I’ll just leave it at that.

That, in my opinion is actually evil. So, to those of you who believe that blaspheming God is unforgivable, have you EVER in your life said, “God damned it!” ??

Your fucked! Literally, even if you said it when you were drunk and don’t remember. It’s UNFORGIVABLE.

I hope that’s a God that doesn’t exist lol. But if he does, I’ll see you in hell! :slight_smile: That’s imo one evil God.

71

[quote]Zen Taco wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
I like the idea of this thread, hope this one gets some responses.

Ok, being that you believe in God, or a God (or may even Gods).
Why do you not believe in any other God(s)? (unless you do believe in other God(s) )
What I’m getting at is why not Hinduism? Jainism? Sikhism? Any of the other Abrahamic religions? (eg if you’re Christian, why not Judaism as it’s the same God that they worship)
The common one in this question, why not Zeus? Jupiter?
Essentially why is yours right, and the others wrong? Is it that every religious person is worshiping the same God and just calling it by a different name?
If this is the case, then why not follow multiple religions? Why only follow one? (eg if they’re all the same, then the manner of worship shouldn’t matter, should it?)
Basically, what makes yours the right one? or does it not matter?

Sorry for the length, I just wanted to be thorough/specific.[/quote]

My basis is on Christ. If he rose, then everything said about Him and his own words were true. If he didn’t rise, then it was false and the religion falls apart. The big separation for me is that it’s the only religion where God did the work. Every other one is the act or responsibility put on the people to make themselves worthy before God. Christ put that on its head, dying for us so that we could have God. There was no “so many good works” or “so many mantras” required.

As far as Judaism, I just believe that the prophecies and pointing of the Jewish Fathers points to Christ, that he’s the messiah spoken about in plenty of different spots. The difference is they don’t believe he was the Messiah, and are still waiting
[/quote]

This is imo a big misconception about Judaism. The Messiah, or Messainic expectations came about after the Jews lost their land. Their idea of a Messiah was a Messiah that would grant them back what they believed to be their ancestral land. The sort of Character they were expecting was actually a David like character, you know the boy who slayed Goliath… So Messianic expectation is more in the form of some sort of warrior General whom God overlooked. Not the son of God or some sort of God incarnate.

Islam believes God wouldn’t do such a thing, wouldn’t reveal himself in the flesh. You see how they react with pictures of Mohammed and such. They seem to like patterns and stuff over statues and paintings of their prophets, which they seem to hate. Generally speaking, they believe Abraham was the first Prophet, Jesus was the second, and Muhammad was the last, and the seal of the prophets so they decided his word is the final word of God, and there will be no other… Interesting right? Mohammed’s word’s were the last that God ever spoke… Who knows which is right? They all claim to be right.

So, the Christian notion of Messiah is different than the Jewish one. Yeah, I studied this stuff a couple years. :S

72

i asked a jesusy friend what would happen if i didnt believe in god but was a good person, he said you still wouldnt go to heaven. so what about say a child, who never had any human interraction, noone to show him THE GOOD LAWD’S WAY, who lived a perfect, moral life, but just happened to have never been taught that a god supposedly existed. what would happen to him? bit of the old hellfire?

seems like the kind of religion id like in on. uneducated? FUCK YOU, HELL TIME. raised by a tribe in the amazon with no outside contact? FUCK YOU, HELL TIME. raised in a social environment by parents who convinced you god didnt exist and then you died before you could find him? HELL TIME BABY.

73

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Again, “the unforgivable sin” is a sin that God – GOD – will not forgive.[/quote]

Yep, so if at any time in your life you said, “God damned it!”

You go to hell…

Hell, being a place more horrifying and heinous than we can imagine. I can imagine some big ugly bubba demon rapist having his way with you for eternity. I’ll just leave it at that.

That, in my opinion is actually evil. So, to those of you who believe that blaspheming God is unforgivable, have you EVER in your life said, “God damned it!” ??

Your fucked! Literally, even if you said it when you were drunk and don’t remember. It’s UNFORGIVABLE.

I hope that’s a God that doesn’t exist lol. But if he does, I’ll see you in hell! :)[/quote]

Speaking of making up doctrine and dogma…

74

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Again, “the unforgivable sin” is a sin that God – GOD – will not forgive.[/quote]

Yep, so if at any time in your life you said, “God damned it!”

You go to hell…

Hell, being a place more horrifying and heinous than we can imagine. I can imagine some big ugly bubba demon rapist having his way with you for eternity. I’ll just leave it at that.

That, in my opinion is actually evil. So, to those of you who believe that blaspheming God is unforgivable, have you EVER in your life said, “God damned it!” ??

Your fucked! Literally, even if you said it when you were drunk and don’t remember. It’s UNFORGIVABLE.

I hope that’s a God that doesn’t exist lol. But if he does, I’ll see you in hell! :)[/quote]

Speaking of making up doctrine and dogma…[/quote]

I didn’t make it up. It’s been a Philosophical critique for a long time.

Sloth wrote:

  1. Mark 3:29: But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

You know what blaspheme means right? That’s an eternal sin.

Mark 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin." It’s in all the different rewritten bibles, those aren’t my ethics, they belong to Christians.

Unless Mark is a lair…

75

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Now if you take the chance and say, “OK, I’ll wait til I’m on my death bed…”

That might not work out for you the you plan it.[/quote]

How do you reason that? It’s pretty clear it’s unforgivable and makes you unclean permanently. If you are unclean you don’t go to heaven… But, I guess the Church went ahead and changed that up too, since it’s probably too harsh and ugly? Maybe eternity in purgatory rather than an eternal death or eternal damnation?

Those are Marks words and there are other books that state similar things that point quite clearly to eternal death or eternal hell, which also isn’t so clear. So, I guess people either believe the words of Mark and the apostles, or some theologian who, “interprets.”

What if the theologian interpreter is wrong? I guess you have to have faith in that stuff too.

Come to think of it… Maybe it is eternity in Purgatory, since that is where we go immediately after death for, “cleansing.” You cannot enter heaven unclean, and you cannot be cleaned for blaspheme, as it’s permanent?

Who knows lol?

76

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

I think it’s safe to say that I’ve “blasphemed the holy spirit”[/quote]

I wouldn’t know.

That’s up to you to figure out. Or, not.

77

If you ever said, “God damn it.” You have blasphemed by definition.

78

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

…I’ll never be forgiven either. [/quote]

I wouldn’t know.

There’s some commentary out there on the passage, if you’re interested.

Remember in the context of Peter’s denials, and Saul/Paul’s oppression of the faithful.

What the Pharisees were engaged in to get such a response was that of knowingly attributing Jesus’ exorcisms working with Satan. So you get the divided house speech, basically demonstrating that they knew better, and so knowingly sinned. They weren’t simply saying that Jesus was a phony, denying him. It was “yeah, he does these things, but he does them through Satan.” This in order to drive people away from him (The gather/scatter aspect in Jesus’ sayings).

79

[quote]Severiano wrote:
If you ever said, “God damn it.” You have blasphemed by definition. [/quote]

Such will be forgiven, even an empty and uncharitable request to judge someone wanting. The Pharisees were involved in a particular blasphemy. One were they used their position to “scatter” Jesus’ ‘flock’ by attributing his exorcisms to Satan. Something he demonstrated that they should know better about, therefore, were willingly misidentifying the Spirit as/for Satan.

22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.

23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: â??How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong manâ??s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong manâ??s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.â??

30 He said this because they were saying, He has an impure spirit.

This is a willful/knowing rejection of the Holy Spirit, hardened hearts, calling the Holy Spirit Satan/impure, in order to try and “scatter.”

80

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Severiano wrote:
If you ever said, “God damn it.” You have blasphemed by definition. [/quote]

Such will be forgiven, even an empty and uncharitable request to judge someone wanting. The Pharisees were involved in a particular blasphemy. One were they used their position to “scatter” Jesus’ ‘flock’ by attributing his exorcisms to Satan. Something he demonstrated that they should know better about, therefore, were willingly misidentifying the Spirit as/for Satan.

22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.

23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: �?�¢??How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man�?�¢??s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man�?�¢??s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.�?�¢??

30 He said this because they were saying, He has an impure spirit.

This is a willful/knowing rejection of the Holy Spirit, hardened hearts, calling the Holy Spirit Satan/impure, in order to try and “scatter.”[/quote]

What I gathered from this is that, merely saying something like, “God damn it.” Seems to mean that one is possessed a demon or the devil, and only through something like Exorcism can it be cleansed. Does the Church still do Exorcisms? I thought they stopped completely, or only do them very privately or if they are done, maybe they are done in secret? By non affiliated Church groups possibly?

Otherwise, it goes from… You go to hell for saying, “God damn this or that, or you.” Unless you have the demon or devil within you Exorcised.

What if there is no demon in you? Or is it necessary for there to be a demon in me since I’m capable of saying such things? Because lots of people say blasphemous things, think crazy sinful thoughts which are sin, and some people are born outside of the Church and are not subject to the only way to your heaven/ aka through Christ.