My question. It may have already been asked.
Are you, believer, ever nagged by doubt. By the inner suggestion, however fleeting, that your God comes from the same place as did Zeus and Odin? That it was all simply made up by people a while back?
[quote]Severiano wrote:
What I gathered from this is that, merely saying something like, “God damn it.” Seems to mean that one is possessed a demon or the devil, and only through something like Exorcism can it be cleansed. Does the Church still do Exorcisms? I thought they stopped completely, or only do them very privately or if they are done, maybe they are done in secret? By non affiliated Church groups possibly?
Otherwise, it goes from… You go to hell for saying, “God damn this or that, or you.” Unless you have the demon or devil within you Exorcised.
[/quote]
I’m not sure I was clear enough. This isn’t about the Pharisees needing an exorcism. This is about them basically lying about who Jesus must be, and about the work of the Holy Spirit.
They don’t dispute that he performs exorcisms. They’re not denying that all. But still they have made up their minds (hearts) to secure their status by attributing Jesus’ exorcisms to Satan-beezlebul. Matthew tells us that Jesus sees their hearts/thoughts.
Jesus challenges them for the benefit of the listener with parables of divided house/kingdom/city. Divided they can not stand. Jesus is calling them out. They know better. They know his exorcisms are of the Kingdom of God. Of the Holy Spirit.
As Jesus demonstrates, they know the ‘kingdom of Satan’ isn’t casting out the ‘kingdom of Satan.’ "Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, â??Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
They know the truth of the following; “But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
Yet, in order to maintain their status in this world, and through their hardened hearts (which Jesus knows, says so right there in Matthew’s account), they commit final impertinence.
Their blasphemy is as if they stood before the pearly gates upon death, with the opportunity to repent to Christ himself, and yet said to those other souls around them “this is not the Kingdom of heaven, it is the kingdom of Satan. Turn back you fools! Turn back! Follow us instead to the kingdom of God!” And it WAS as if they already stood right there before the gates, because the Kingdom of God was actually standing right there before them. Actually casting out demons.
Despite this, with their hardened hearts, they chose to deny the Kingdom of God. To not only deny the Holy Spirit’s work, but to call it Satan. They chose to try to convince the people listening that the work of the Holy Spirit was the work of Satan. Without that same Holy Spirit they can’t have forgiveness.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
My question. It may have already been asked.
Are you, believer, ever nagged by doubt. By the inner suggestion, however fleeting, that your God comes from the same place as did Zeus and Odin? That it was all simply made up by people a while back?[/quote]
When I was nominally spiritual, yes.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
What’re your thoughts on the pope commanding the west to welcome migrants?
http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=53935[/quote]
I guess I’m not getting an answer?
[quote]Severiano wrote:
If you ever said, “God damn it.” You have blasphemed by definition. [/quote]
What about “Godshitdamnit”?
In all seriousness, very interesting discussion all around.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
What I gathered from this is that, merely saying something like, “God damn it.” Seems to mean that one is possessed a demon or the devil, and only through something like Exorcism can it be cleansed. Does the Church still do Exorcisms? I thought they stopped completely, or only do them very privately or if they are done, maybe they are done in secret? By non affiliated Church groups possibly?
Otherwise, it goes from… You go to hell for saying, “God damn this or that, or you.” Unless you have the demon or devil within you Exorcised.
[/quote]
I’m not sure I was clear enough. This isn’t about the Pharisees needing an exorcism. This is about them basically lying about who Jesus must be, and about the work of the Holy Spirit.
They don’t dispute that he performs exorcisms. They’re not denying that all. But still they have made up their minds (hearts) to secure their status by attributing Jesus’ exorcisms to Satan-beezlebul. Matthew tells us that Jesus sees their hearts/thoughts.
Jesus challenges them for the benefit of the listener with parables of divided house/kingdom/city. Divided they can not stand. Jesus is calling them out. They know better. They know his exorcisms are of the Kingdom of God. Of the Holy Spirit.
As Jesus demonstrates, they know the ‘kingdom of Satan’ isn’t casting out the ‘kingdom of Satan.’ "Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
They know the truth of the following; “But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
Yet, in order to maintain their status in this world, and through their hardened hearts (which Jesus knows, says so right there in Matthew’s account), they commit final impertinence.
Their blasphemy is as if they stood before the pearly gates upon death, with the opportunity to repent to Christ himself, and yet said to those other souls around them “this is not the Kingdom of heaven, it is the kingdom of Satan. Turn back you fools! Turn back! Follow us instead to the kingdom of God!” And it WAS as if they already stood right there before the gates, because the Kingdom of God was actually standing right there before them. Actually casting out demons.
Despite this, with their hardened hearts, they chose to deny the Kingdom of God. To not only deny the Holy Spirit’s work, but to call it Satan. They chose to try to convince the people listening that the work of the Holy Spirit was the work of Satan. Without that same Holy Spirit they can’t have forgiveness.
[/quote]
Thanks for clearing it up. I respect your position, to me it seems so much of religion has to be explained away in such a way that it really feels disconnected from the original writing.
I see the connection pretty clearly… It’s really difficult to buy the idea that such a strong statement would be made about blaspheming the holy spirit being an eternal, unforgivable sin. To blaspheming the holy spirit only being unforgivable if you’re at your judgement, see the heavens and angels or immortals about do you need faith at that point? Yet, you still may be forgiven while having ostensive knowledge of God, or at least the heavens, it’s kinda hard not to realize God is in the heavens I’d imagine… I mean talking with angels and either being someplace sublime like Heavens gates, someplace like a wasteland in Purgatory?
You would have to be a pretty stupid and stubborn soul to deny Gods existence at that point.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
If you ever said, “God damn it.” You have blasphemed by definition. [/quote]
What about “Godshitdamnit”?
In all seriousness, very interesting discussion all around.[/quote]
Yep, reminds me of some form of Philosophy of Religion. Cool thread.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
This is imo a big misconception about Judaism. The Messiah, or Messainic expectations came about after the Jews lost their land.
[/quote]
First mention of a Messiah was clear back in Genesis 3:15.
[/quote]
scroll down there are more questions answered, as well as more info about eyebrows!
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
What I gathered from this is that, merely saying something like, “God damn it.”…
[/quote]
You keep gathering in error.
[/quote]
I guess that’s a matter of opinion.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
What I gathered from this is that, merely saying something like, “God damn it.” Seems to mean that one is possessed a demon or the devil, and only through something like Exorcism can it be cleansed. Does the Church still do Exorcisms? I thought they stopped completely, or only do them very privately or if they are done, maybe they are done in secret? By non affiliated Church groups possibly?
Otherwise, it goes from… You go to hell for saying, “God damn this or that, or you.” Unless you have the demon or devil within you Exorcised.
[/quote]
I’m not sure I was clear enough. This isn’t about the Pharisees needing an exorcism. This is about them basically lying about who Jesus must be, and about the work of the Holy Spirit.
They don’t dispute that he performs exorcisms. They’re not denying that all. But still they have made up their minds (hearts) to secure their status by attributing Jesus’ exorcisms to Satan-beezlebul. Matthew tells us that Jesus sees their hearts/thoughts.
Jesus challenges them for the benefit of the listener with parables of divided house/kingdom/city. Divided they can not stand. Jesus is calling them out. They know better. They know his exorcisms are of the Kingdom of God. Of the Holy Spirit.
As Jesus demonstrates, they know the ‘kingdom of Satan’ isn’t casting out the ‘kingdom of Satan.’ "Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
They know the truth of the following; “But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
Yet, in order to maintain their status in this world, and through their hardened hearts (which Jesus knows, says so right there in Matthew’s account), they commit final impertinence.
Their blasphemy is as if they stood before the pearly gates upon death, with the opportunity to repent to Christ himself, and yet said to those other souls around them “this is not the Kingdom of heaven, it is the kingdom of Satan. Turn back you fools! Turn back! Follow us instead to the kingdom of God!” And it WAS as if they already stood right there before the gates, because the Kingdom of God was actually standing right there before them. Actually casting out demons.
Despite this, with their hardened hearts, they chose to deny the Kingdom of God. To not only deny the Holy Spirit’s work, but to call it Satan. They chose to try to convince the people listening that the work of the Holy Spirit was the work of Satan. Without that same Holy Spirit they can’t have forgiveness.
[/quote]
Thanks for clearing it up. I respect your position, to me it seems so much of religion has to be explained away in such a way that it really feels disconnected from the original writing.
I see the connection pretty clearly… It’s really difficult to buy the idea that such a strong statement would be made about blaspheming the holy spirit being an eternal, unforgivable sin. To blaspheming the holy spirit only being unforgivable if you’re at your judgement, see the heavens and angels or immortals about do you need faith at that point? Yet, you still may be forgiven while having ostensive knowledge of God, or at least the heavens, it’s kinda hard not to realize God is in the heavens I’d imagine… I mean talking with angels and either being someplace sublime like Heavens gates, someplace like a wasteland in Purgatory?
You would have to be a pretty stupid and stubborn soul to deny Gods existence at that point. [/quote]
There are commentators who link it to a continual rejection of the Holy Spirit and attributing it’s work to Satan. Some go as far as the domino effect: if you continue to reject the Holy Spirit till you’re dead, then you can’t be saved, because you didn’t accept the gift of salvation. I don’t have my bible in front of me, so forgive the rough sketch of scripture, but in one of the gospels that accounted that same event, Christ basically told the Pharisee’s to watch themselves, that they were on thin ice. Meaning, it wasn’t the singular statement itself, but the direction their hearts were headed.
[quote]Zen Taco wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
What I gathered from this is that, merely saying something like, “God damn it.” Seems to mean that one is possessed a demon or the devil, and only through something like Exorcism can it be cleansed. Does the Church still do Exorcisms? I thought they stopped completely, or only do them very privately or if they are done, maybe they are done in secret? By non affiliated Church groups possibly?
Otherwise, it goes from… You go to hell for saying, “God damn this or that, or you.” Unless you have the demon or devil within you Exorcised.
[/quote]
I’m not sure I was clear enough. This isn’t about the Pharisees needing an exorcism. This is about them basically lying about who Jesus must be, and about the work of the Holy Spirit.
They don’t dispute that he performs exorcisms. They’re not denying that all. But still they have made up their minds (hearts) to secure their status by attributing Jesus’ exorcisms to Satan-beezlebul. Matthew tells us that Jesus sees their hearts/thoughts.
Jesus challenges them for the benefit of the listener with parables of divided house/kingdom/city. Divided they can not stand. Jesus is calling them out. They know better. They know his exorcisms are of the Kingdom of God. Of the Holy Spirit.
As Jesus demonstrates, they know the ‘kingdom of Satan’ isn’t casting out the ‘kingdom of Satan.’ "Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
They know the truth of the following; “But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”
Yet, in order to maintain their status in this world, and through their hardened hearts (which Jesus knows, says so right there in Matthew’s account), they commit final impertinence.
Their blasphemy is as if they stood before the pearly gates upon death, with the opportunity to repent to Christ himself, and yet said to those other souls around them “this is not the Kingdom of heaven, it is the kingdom of Satan. Turn back you fools! Turn back! Follow us instead to the kingdom of God!” And it WAS as if they already stood right there before the gates, because the Kingdom of God was actually standing right there before them. Actually casting out demons.
Despite this, with their hardened hearts, they chose to deny the Kingdom of God. To not only deny the Holy Spirit’s work, but to call it Satan. They chose to try to convince the people listening that the work of the Holy Spirit was the work of Satan. Without that same Holy Spirit they can’t have forgiveness.
[/quote]
Thanks for clearing it up. I respect your position, to me it seems so much of religion has to be explained away in such a way that it really feels disconnected from the original writing.
I see the connection pretty clearly… It’s really difficult to buy the idea that such a strong statement would be made about blaspheming the holy spirit being an eternal, unforgivable sin. To blaspheming the holy spirit only being unforgivable if you’re at your judgement, see the heavens and angels or immortals about do you need faith at that point? Yet, you still may be forgiven while having ostensive knowledge of God, or at least the heavens, it’s kinda hard not to realize God is in the heavens I’d imagine… I mean talking with angels and either being someplace sublime like Heavens gates, someplace like a wasteland in Purgatory?
You would have to be a pretty stupid and stubborn soul to deny Gods existence at that point. [/quote]
There are commentators who link it to a continual rejection of the Holy Spirit and attributing it’s work to Satan. Some go as far as the domino effect: if you continue to reject the Holy Spirit till you’re dead, then you can’t be saved, because you didn’t accept the gift of salvation. I don’t have my bible in front of me, so forgive the rough sketch of scripture, but in one of the gospels that accounted that same event, Christ basically told the Pharisee’s to watch themselves, that they were on thin ice. Meaning, it wasn’t the singular statement itself, but the direction their hearts were headed.
[/quote]
That sounds very reasonable. That’s the sort of thing that makes sense to me.
Could it be that in the long history of the Church that at one point they took the idea of blaspheming very seriously, the punishment was being stoned to death apparently. I’m sort of unsure what blasphemy’s definition even morphed into. Apparently, at one point it was considered to be as bad a sin as murder or infidelity and it would get you killed. Leviticus 24:10-16 ESV - Punishment for Blasphemy - Now an - Bible Gateway
So, it went from that, to continual rejection of the holy spirit.
I think that the ethics about this clearly morphed from something horrible, to something we all do every day, so what the hell… It’s okay.
Its human nature to be a free thinker. Only sheep blindly follow. At a certain age its normal to question reality and death. For me I have a hard time believing books written by men 3500 years ago which somehow gather we are created in Gods image or are the center of the universe. So all life in the universe is inferior? Not to mention creation which claims the Earth is only about 4000 years old. I have rocks in my yard older than that. Religion served its purpose in the early days by explaining the unexplainable in the dawn of man. It also gave law and order and doctrines to live by. All current regions seem to claim they know best and if you dont join their club you burn or youre not chosen. Which seems good for business since 10% is the going rate for being saved. However I feel as a grown man in a modern era Ive put away my childish concepts & ancient rituals as I have no need for them. I can be a good human being without buying into fairy tales. I choose not to dump money in a wicker basket for some dudes Cadillac payments. If I am to believe in a greater power its something more universal that encompasses the cosmos and all that live in it.
I dont need books suedo leaders or others to feel as I do or confirm my beliefs. Nor do I need silly rituals like separating dishes or not eating certain animals. I feel its unfair to assume we are the best things out there and others must perish if they dont believe as I.
[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
Its human nature to be a free thinker.[/quote]
Or, maybe human nature is to have the illusion that one is a free thinker. That our feeling of having made a choice is only an illusion put together after the fact, to match up with subconscious processes.
Don’t let your subconscious processes make you upset with mine.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]thehebrewhero wrote:
Its human nature to be a free thinker.[/quote]
Or, maybe human nature is to have the illusion that one is a free thinker. That our feeling of having made a choice is only an illusion put together after the fact, to match up with subconscious processes.
Don’t let your subconscious processes make you upset with mine.
[/quote]
Sloth, what you say could be true for all of us. I’m not upset with your subconscious, I encourage you to know more about your own religion. I started by purchasing myself and my sister and mother gnostic gospels.
I just thought it was important by the very fact that the Church rejected them, the supposed word of the rest of the apostles. A true Christian would want to have those accounts. It led me to figuring out what happened to the Catharists, and that there were many different ways of being Christian before it became Peters way or the deathway. Because at one point it did.
The other thing is, in my experience as a Christian we aren’t encouraged to seek out this sort of knowledge and think, or debate it. Where in Judaism it’s strongly encouraged. I’m not trying to paint with a definite broad brush, but a broad one in general. Jewish culture and faith seem a lot more critical in thought and honest about some of the things that don’t add up, and aren’t always so quick to be apologetic about those things or change what they mean to make them softer and more acceptable.
Islam can be similar in the elite levels of the faith… The problem I see with Islam is the amount of people who are illiterate in general amongst Arabs. I think it explains a shit load… You get some holy man teaching illiterate people what a book means, so many cant, or don’t read it for themselves, and they just accept that persons interpretation as fact, and those people are manipulated, sometimes to do horrible things in the name of God. There are literate people who do the same of course, but I think religiousity coupled with illiteracy is a horrible mixture.
We need to use our minds and be critical is all I’m trying to say. Whether these books are the word of God is going to be debatable… But, if people are of a certain faith, they should strive to know it thoroughly and make sense of it, and not engineer excuses or make things more acceptable or softer or relaxed, otherwise they are re-writing the religion. If they can still accept it at that point, then great. If not, great as well.