Religion

Off Topic
81

Cool. References to Betrand Russell, Pascal’s Gambit, etc. Y’all are some edumacated mofos! Oh yeah, I’m atheist. And to all the christian folks who invited me to “come over to the light” or whatever, I cordially invite you to let go of your fear and embrace the darkness. It’s really only as scary as you make it yourself. Wanna know what it’s like to be dead? Well, how did you feel back in 1642… let’s say around 3:22pm. That is what death feels like.

Ah, who cares though? It doesn’t really matter how you lived your life after you’re gone. But, I say while you’re here right NOW, take this life by the throat and ride this shit all the way out, you know? There’s no reason not to.

82

Great debate here, I like the info from the other posts. However, take a look at history. Anyone familiar with Gilgamesh? Utnapishtim? We can work our way over to Noah then, and the apparent conglomeration of stories in the bible which are supposedly true. If they were more simply put together and later edited for political purpose, they are no longer true, they are rehashed by politics and power. Historical accuracy? If something happened and I report it, yes I am reporting a fact. When I create a reason and circumstances to justify my personal position, it has no real bearing on how or why events happened, just how they come into the historical perception.
btw: any recommended reading?

83

Vegita, you can argue against the problem of evil as you wish, but many have tried and few have devised a truly effective response to it.

D. Barr–I reject the idea of any supernatural being or beings…better?

84

“If someone really believes that you will burn in hell if you don’t believe as they do, and they don’t tell you about it in some manner or other, what kind of person does that make him?”

-Just wanted to let you know I feel the same way. This is the only reason why I post. Some will say I am closed minded but I believe in the truth.

Also glad we can have a good conversation. This is awesome!

85

Hey,
I just started another thread out of curiousity. (Did not want to interupt this good conversation) In the other thread I have a question for all athiests. Since you believe there is no God, then what are your views on origins and what is your purpose in life? Hope we can have another good conversation!

86

I STILL BELIEVE

87

I3, Boston,
I understand when someone is trying to warn me that I am “going to hell” when they truly mean it. I really do not mind it then either, because I simply do not believe hell exists.
I get angry when someone uses hell as a threat. Though I do not believe in it, I know what they mean. These people fear me because of what I stand for, and feel they must tear me down. I will even go so far as to say they fear me because they are not even sure of their religion themselve. (They have religion, not faith; there is a distinction, but it still does not appy to me) Their intention is what pisses me off, not their words.

88

Vegita- Man you are one interesting guy. I like your thoughts.

Boston Barrister- to use your analogy of squatting and talking about God, If some guy is squatting wrong, and he may hurt himself, I would most likely tell him, but if he has headphones on, and is glaring down people who come near his power rack, I won’t approach, he obviously isn’t ready to take advice. Likewise when talking to people you have to gauge whether it is the right time to talk about God.

My friends are not religious, but they know I am and every once in a while we will talk about it, and when one of them goes through a really rough time, then they are open to the possibility of help from outside… I can talk till I am blue in the face, but until they are ready to listen I am just wasting my breath.

89

Has anyone considered the marked similarities in all religions, that essentially they are a code by which to live life?
Has anyone considered the way way back, that the ‘idea’ of religion would be used by those in power to subdue the masses. A way of propagating civil obediance without the repercussions of civil unrest?
People are far more likely to obey rules sent down from high (10 commandments came down from a mountain), and far more easily manipulated by omnipresent threats of eternal damnation.

So either humans need to believe in something and those in power seized on that as a more manageable and simple way of controlling the populus, OR there is something in this ‘God’ thing above a simple need to believe.

But some of the rules in each religion, smack of some bigotry or prejudice, which seem to be human traits. Certainly not ones I’d ascribe to a godly presence.

But hey thats my tuppence worth.

90

Invisible 3:

If I don`t believe in Heaven and Hell, what kind of a person does that make me?

What kind of insulting question is that?

Your question presupposes that people by themselves cannot control their views of the world or control themselves. I beg to differ.

Last time I thougt about it, all Noble Human values like Honor, Courtesy, Truth, Benevolence, Hard Work, Discipline, etc. could be achieved without believing in God. Same thing for having goals in life.

Therefore God-believing is NOT necessary to have a meaningful life.

But you`ll never hear that from Believers.

What would you say to an Atheist father who is in the armed services? Would you question the worth of his place on Earth?

Think about it. A lot.

91

hey lothario…man…I live a VERY full life! and enjoy it all the way…even the tough times. and i have not lived some type of life like some guy who parts his hair on the right…wears button down shirts fastened all the way to the top and says yes mam and yes sir to every question! Ive made my runs over the border…lived in sin a few times and have been out all night drinkin. and you know what???..i know what I am NOT missing!
Peace to you bro!

92

PtrDR, you said “Some of you are having to work waaaay to hard to try to prove God doesn’t exist…as evidenced by your extreme verbage!”

It’s called intellectual discourse, as in supporting your position with well-thought logic. Now let’s compare that to your awe-inspiring logic: “All I have to say is that the Bible is true!” Wow! How well put! How brilliant!

Oh, wait, that’s right…you don’t need to argue because you’re CORRECT and we’re WRONG. You have PROOF. You KNOW while we merely BELIEVE. Please re-read my above post regarding smug condescencion.

“Come on over to the light guys! Jesus Christ has an open door:0)” Tell you what, I think I’ll stay right here in the shadows, if that’s where people who search and question and debate about the nature of our existance reside (and I include, amongst those people, your fellow Christians who at least have the decency and humility to state their beliefs in a manner which doesn’t presuppose that those who disagree are morons).

I guess Jesus’ references to the flock were apt when I hear bleating from sheep like you.

93

For all of you atheists and agnostics out there. I believe in Jesus, the he is the Son of God and that he rose from the dead.

Why don’t you prove to me that God doesn’t exist? Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn’t exist and I’ll believe.

One more thing, my anger post got a few responses. One of the intriguing things about anger is that it manifests itself in so many ways.

And to quote a reply on the board.

“Anyhow, you can’t crack all athiests and agnostics up to be angry at religion. While I think religion is simply unnecessary, I’ve no anger toward it. My position is rooted in serious consideration – deny that if you will.”

I have seen plenty of angry comments about Christians. One person even said he was a better person than most Christians. True Christianity is marked with humility not pride like one gentleman talked about.

I’m not angry at atheists or agnostics because I was one. I understand what that’s like.

Anyhow, good discussion.

94

Walleye I believe I was the gentleman you are referring to. And i’ll state again not out of anger but of love, I am a better christian than most. Besides the ritual aspect of christianity I follow the teachings of your book more than most of the christians I know. By the way I was raised a roman catholic so I am not speaking of something I know knothing about.

I practice Love of all gods creatures. I do not love one above the other I love them all as strongly as I can possibly love. Am I perfect in my practice of this, not by any means, I still get angry I still have times of pain and doubt, but nearly every waking breath I take I direct love outwards that it might make someone else feel that love and in turn spread it to someone else.

Also You ask the atheists to prove to you that there is no god. I think they do not wish to prove that there is no god. This is simply what they believe in, I am sure that most atheists believe the concept of a god is possible, just not likely or probable in thier mind. They only speak their feelings and admit that they do not know everything.

You sounded a little preachy in your last post and I was hoping this wouldn’t turn into a preacher war. Let us continue to discuss our points of view on this topic as just that, our points of view. This might help us to further understand eachother and all grow together as we gain insight into what makes us who we are.

Peace

95

BoscoBarbell-
I wanted to say I very much agree with your outlook on this topic, and I like the way you present it.

96

Walleye, while I appreciate your comments, I believe that your “groundrules” are flawed, at least from an intellectual/philosophical standpoint.

Those who believe in god are positing the existence of something whose presence is in question…i.e. we all agree there is this physical, observable reality we call our “universe.” The theists add to this picture, claiming there is something beyond what we observe. It is incumbant upon you, therefore, to prove that it exists…and incumbant upon the atheists to intellectually dispute whatever proofs you provide, if they can.

It’s like I walk up to you claiming that there’s a 300 lb. pink bunny wearing a tutu living in our neighborhood. If you haven’t seen this damn thing, wouldn’t you like to see proof it exists? What would you think if I made that claim and then said, “Hey, he’s around. Prove to me he isn’t.”? Sorta backwards, no?

Good debate…

97

“Why don’t you prove to me that God doesn’t exist? Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that God doesn’t exist and I’ll believe.”

Sorry, but the burden of proof lies with those making the claim, in most instances. In this case, believers claim that God exists despite no immediate/obvious evidence. It is not the responsibility of those not making any claim at all to prove why they don’t make the claim.

This is true in the court of law too - the burden of proof lies with the prosecution.

98

Fnord, Short Dave –

I tend to agree with both your statements. I was simply trying to address the outlook of people who are offended if someone tries to help them – whether they agree or not. I tend to find it troubling that such hostility would be directed at someone genuinely, in his own mind, trying to help.

That does not cover rude, pushy people who get “in your face” with their beliefs, or attempt to use threats. Those people simply don’t understand basic persuasion.

Also, ShortDave, I definitely agree with your take on my analogy (which was not perfect by any means, but was just to illustrate the point). Someone who tries to offer advice to one who is hostile, no matter how good his intentions, will not be successful, and would do better to save himself the effort.

99

Nobody is going to change anyone else’s ming about God through a discussion of empirical evidence. It’s not about verifiable proof, it’s about faith.

I happen to believe in God the Eternal Father and in His Son Jesus Christ. But I certainly don’t look down on those who don’t share my beliefs. There was once upon a time in my life where I had very little faith. And I don’t think that everyone else who does not believe what I do is going to hell. God will judge them, not me.

While it’s true that there’s not really any universal physical proof that everyone can see, I do believe that proof exists in a personal way that is manifested to an individual if they faithfully search for the truth.

James 1:5-6
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

100

Boscobarbell and Vegita,

I appreciate your input. I can have God as my properly basic belief. If you are into heavy philosophical reading please check out the author Alvin Plantenga. Anyhow, I’ll attempt to explain how I am logically justified in having God as my basic belief.

If I start out my worldview that presupposes the Christian God, then everything that happens in the world makes sense according to this basic belief. Good and Evil make sense because in the Christian Worldview Evil has an end, namely the judgement. While I can’t speak intellegently about WHY things happen, (I don’t believe anyone except God can do that) through my worldview I can accept them as part of a greater plan.

OK having said all that, how does a properly basic belief work? Let me give an example from science. In order science to work one must put their FAITH in science as their starting point. You have to assume that science can answer all your questions. Then you do scientific experiments to get your questions answered.

However, science comes short because it cannot replicate all things with an experiment. For example, things of history cannot be verified through science. An example of this might be Lincoln’s Assassination, all we have of this is historical documents and eyewitness accounts. Lincoln’s assassination has to be proved using history not science since we can’t bring Lincoln, John Wilkes Booth and others, back from the dead to recreate the account.

Let’s trust rationalism and logic, you first have to believe that rationalism and logic are true. Then once you accept this presupposition is true, then you can make an argument.

I hope you get the gyst that all reasoning in circular. For example, to have God as the center of my worldview, I must believe in God. To trust science you first have to BELIEVE that science is true. If I haven’t explained this well enough let me know.

So when I asked you to prove that God doesn’t exist, no one can do it. The reason is that you have to place your properly basic belief in science, logic, or rationalism, you can’t prove God doesn’t exist from those starting points.

I know this is heady stuff but I hope I have made sense. I hope you can see that my belief that God exists is a rational decision. I hope you can see that you have to put faith or belief in any type of philosophical argument before you can argue from that point of view.

Lastly, presuppositions are where all arguments come from. If I don’t accept your presuppositions we can’t have a debate. I cannot argue from your worldview because I believe that the Christian God exists. That is a properly basic belief that I don’t have to prove.

Any questions?