Religion of Peace

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]Sloth wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Unfortunately, you can’t have it both ways. The Abrahamic religions share the same roots because they are born out of the same God. You cannot be a monotheist and believe in two different Gods.

Err, I DON’T believe in their God. So, I’m not having it both ways…I do not believe in their concept of God. Period. Stop. Do not pass Go. I believe in a Triune God of which Jesus Christ is a Divine part.
[/quote]

You are not a monotheist? There is nothing more fundamental to the Abrhamic religions than that concept. If you all worship “one” god then it must be the same one. Jesus is just demigod like Apollo. A mortal.

162

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Malevolence wrote:

In that case, accept the fact that Muslims are praying to your God just as intently as you are.

Oh, I didn’t know Muslims believed Jesus Christ was God. How can you say muslims are praying to my god? [/quote]

Jesus Christ is not God in the Christian religion (at least according to the bible). He’s part of the trinity, which is essentially a metaphor FOR the almighty power. The almighty power is God. The overall omnipotent everlasting being. That is it’s ONLY definition. Because omnipotence is impossible in our understanding, God must exist outside of that. Therefore, all monotheistic religions pray to the same God in different ways.

163

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Malevolence wrote:

In that case, accept the fact that Muslims are praying to your God just as intently as you are.

Oh, I didn’t know Muslims believed Jesus Christ was God. How can you say muslims are praying to my god?

Jesus Christ is not God in the Christian religion (at least according to the bible). He’s part of the trinity, which is essentially a metaphor FOR the almighty power. The almighty power is God. The overall omnipotent everlasting being. That is it’s ONLY definition. Because omnipotence is impossible in our understanding, God must exist outside of that. Therefore, all monotheistic religions pray to the same God in different ways.[/quote]

Beowolf,

You got it. There is only one God, and all monotheistic religion pray to the same God in different ways.

Christians think Jesus is God, but in Islam, he is not, he is a prophet, just like Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Prophet Muhammad is not better than Jesus, and vice versa, all prophets are equal of one another.

The issue I have with Christians believing Jesus is God is that you cannot worship a human being. You worship a higher power, and that is God. Muslims follow the way of the Prophet Muhammad, but worship Allah.

164

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
Muhammad (peace be upon him). Prophet Muhammad is not better than Jesus, and vice versa, all prophets are equal of one another.
[/quote]

Such debate is very much useless since we all know that God created all men equal, but I like to believe that Jesus (may the best of blessing be upon him) has a special position among prophets because of the holy spirit component. But again, it’s just my interpretation.

?Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allah spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour)? Quran 2:253

165

[quote]lixy wrote:
derek wrote:
Now, why would anyone think that we should have any fear or be at war with such nice, peaceful Islamists?!

Because they don’t know any better than demonize a whole community based on a few bad apples.

Any link to the page on which those pics appeared, please? Thanks in advance.[/quote]

“Few Bad Apples”…Yea, that’s all it is. Here is a link to an article about a few of those “bad apples”…

Your “religion” has been hijacked.

March 09, 2007
Muslims call for beheading of Christian preacher who called them killers

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015574.php

166

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
“Few Bad Apples”…Yea, that’s all it is. [/quote]

I maintain that assertion. It’s a few bad apples and that’s all there’s to it.

I should probably add that attempts to demonize Islam coupled with unlawful military occupations is only helping them grow their ranks.

What else is new?

[quote]March 09, 2007
Muslims call for beheading of Christian preacher who called them killers
[/quote]

Two things to put the event in proper context:

  • Filipinos Muslims (a historically oppressed 5% of the total population) have been fighting the most protracted war of independence in world history. The Islamic separatist movement in the Philippines had been and is being waged for almost five centuries – against the Spanish, the Americans, the Japanese and the predominantly Christian Filipinos of today’s independent republic.

  • They are concentrated in the poorest regions of the Archipelago. The Philippines not being exactly wealthy to start with. And did I mention the legacy of Marcos?

167

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Unfortunately, you can’t have it both ways. The Abrahamic religions share the same roots because they are born out of the same God. You cannot be a monotheist and believe in two different Gods.

Err, I DON’T believe in their God. So, I’m not having it both ways…I do not believe in their concept of God. Period. Stop. Do not pass Go. I believe in a Triune God of which Jesus Christ is a Divine part.

You are not a monotheist? There is nothing more fundamental to the Abrhamic religions than that concept. If you all worship “one” god then it must be the same one. Jesus is just demigod like Apollo. A mortal.[/quote]

Being a Monotheist doesn’t mean we worship the same God. I don’t believe in their version of God. They don’t believe in mine. I worship a very Christian ideal of God. They worship a very Islamic ideal. I’m baffled why this isn’t crystal clear. I’m starting to think a couple of you are just trying to be argumentative.

168

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Malevolence wrote:

In that case, accept the fact that Muslims are praying to your God just as intently as you are.

Oh, I didn’t know Muslims believed Jesus Christ was God. How can you say muslims are praying to my god?

Jesus Christ is not God in the Christian religion (at least according to the bible). He’s part of the trinity, which is essentially a metaphor FOR the almighty power. The almighty power is God. The overall omnipotent everlasting being. That is it’s ONLY definition. Because omnipotence is impossible in our understanding, God must exist outside of that. Therefore, all monotheistic religions pray to the same God in different ways.[/quote]

Your description of Christ is tortured. You just said Christ is not God in the Christian religion. What’s odd is that you turn right around and describe him as God.

You say he is part of the Almighty Power, which you claim is God…But he’s not God…Huh? All you’ve done is substitute “trinity” with “Allmighty Power.” By the way, the majority (I’d like to say vast, but I’d have to look at numbers again) Christians do believe Jesus was God Incarnate.

Here’s a simple question for you. Do muslims pray to a Triune God made up of the Father, Son, and Holy spirit? No fudging the answer. It’s a simple yes or no deal.

169

[quote]lixy wrote:
Tokoya wrote:
“Few Bad Apples”…Yea, that’s all it is.

I maintain that assertion. It’s a few bad apples and that’s all there’s to it.

I should probably add that attempts to demonize Islam coupled with unlawful military occupations is only helping them grow their ranks.

Your “religion” has been hijacked.

What else is new?

March 09, 2007
Muslims call for beheading of Christian preacher who called them killers

Two things to put the event in proper context:

  • Filipinos Muslims (a historically oppressed 5% of the total population) have been fighting the most protracted war of independence in world history. The Islamic separatist movement in the Philippines had been and is being waged for almost five centuries – against the Spanish, the Americans, the Japanese and the predominantly Christian Filipinos of today’s independent republic.

  • They are concentrated in the poorest regions of the Archipelago. The Philippines not being exactly wealthy to start with. And did I mention the legacy of Marcos?[/quote]

Read the news, these “few bad apples” you speak about seem to pop up too often. The media did not create the stereotype. It’s those “bad apples”.

A look at more recent news yields the following:

New York mosque leaders sentenced to federal prison in terror sting

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/08/america/NA-GEN-US-Mosque-Raid.php

Sorry if you think reporting on terrorists = “demonizing” Islam. You don’t need to convince me Islam is so “peaceful”.

I’d prefer you direct that message to those few Islamist “bad apples” out there. Funny, I bet you would not tolerate the “few bad apples” crap as an excuse for (the inexcusable) Abu Ghraib prison abuse.

170

I’m a Christian and I cannot ever remember being taught that Jesus was God, but the son of God.

I could be wrong here but I do recall giving thanks to GOD for sending his only son to die for our sins.

Wait! Just found this…

In the beginning was Jesus (a.k.a. The Word), and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. Jesus was with God in the beginning. (John 1:1-2)

There are Three who were present in the beginning: The Father, Jesus The Son, and The Holy Spirit; and These Three are One God. (1 John 5:7)

Just a LITTLE confusing huh?

171

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Read the news, these “few bad apples” you speak about seem to pop up too often. The media did not create the stereotype. It’s those “bad apples”.[/quote]

Duh. Do you ever hear about the planes that arrived safely and on time? No. You only hear about those who crashed. THAT is the bread and butter of the media.

No sir. I think that arguing that there are more than a few bad apples is close to demonization of the Islamic faith. By any standard, the fanatics remain a negligible part of the Muslim world.

The mistake most people do is compare the secular Western societies to the highly religious Islamic ones, then draw all kind of fallacious conclusions. I just think you fall within that category.

Believe me; I do my share.

???

crap != smurf

172

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Here’s a simple question for you. Do muslims pray to a Triune God made up of the Father, Son, and Holy spirit? No fudging the answer. It’s a simple yes or no deal.[/quote]

Short answer: No.

But I’ll break it down for you.

You cannot reconcile monotheism with tritheism.

Nontrinitarians understood that early on and broke apart from the mainstream.

So, for a lot of people (Jews, Muslims, Nontrinitarians and Atheists), you are hardly Monotheistic.

Because of the absurdity (sorry, couldn’t find a nicer word) of the trinity concept and the fact that it only appeared in 325 AD, some believe that since you claim to be Monotheistic we must be praying to the same God, even though you don’t know it. Oftentimes I prayed in a church.

Sorry if any of my post sounded offensive, but hopefully spelling it out like it is should make the other posts clearer.

173

Lixy,

Any way you slice it, the tiny minority routine your so fond of referring to, yields rather deadly results. Pick most any spot in the world…Muslims seem to have a problem getting along with anyone - without resorting threatening or resorting to violence.

Could you help me understand the lack of outrage in the Islamic world for all the carnage and misery being meted out on the poor folks in Darfur - by those few bad apples?

Or, your thoughts on the following?

Muslims converts face ostracism in France

174

[quote]lixy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Muhammad (peace be upon him). Prophet Muhammad is not better than Jesus, and vice versa, all prophets are equal of one another.

Such debate is very much useless since we all know that God created all men equal, but I like to believe that Jesus (may the best of blessing be upon him) has a special position among prophets because of the holy spirit component. But again, it’s just my interpretation.

?Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allah spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour)? Quran 2:253[/quote]

From this verse in the Quran, do you think he is talking about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), in regards that he was preferred among others? Do you think he is talking about Jesus? No disrespct towards Jesus, I’m just wondering.

And why do you think Jesus has a special position among prophets because of the holy spirit component? Again, no disrespect, I would like to hear your reasoning.

On one special night, Angel Gabriel took the Prophet Muhammad up through the seven heavens. At the last stage of heaven, Angel Gabriel told Prophet Muhammad, I cannot go any further, you are the only person who can be directly in the presence of God, and you are the only person who will ever be this close to God. The Prophet Muhammad ascended upwards, and this is when God revealed the 5 pillars of Islam to Prophet Muhammad. I would say that is the ultimate honor.

Each prophet is special in their own specific way (Jesus-healing power, Muhammad-knowledge, etc.), so in this case, I think some prophets were preferred to others with a certain attribute, while other prophets had their own special attribute.

175

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Lixy,

Any way you slice it, the tiny minority routine your so fond of referring to, yields rather deadly results. Pick most any spot in the world…Muslims seem to have a problem getting along with anyone - without resorting threatening or resorting to violence.

Could you help me understand the lack of outrage in the Islamic world for all the carnage and misery being meted out on the poor folks in Darfur - by those few bad apples?

Or, your thoughts on the following?

Muslims converts face ostracism in France

[/quote]

People converting from Islam to other religions mainly happens in non-Islamic countries, where other religions are dominant. People who leave Islam are letting the culture and the surroundings influence them that Islam is bad, and are questioning their faith. That is the Shaytaan (devil) messing with their mind. The people should just practice religion in their homes, and they wouldn’t have to worry about outside influences messing with their minds.

In the article, there was a guy who used to be Muslim, now he is Christian minister. There have been many Christian ministers who have converted to Islam, so it works both ways.

I grew up in a non-Islamic country (USA), and especially growing up in the Bible Belt, Christianity was all around me, but I didn’t budge one bit from my faith in Islam. It comes from within.

Sorry — I just realized this post was for Lixy. My apologies.

176

No worries. I am sure that Lixy is coming up with a snappy response to the question posed.

177

[quote]lixy wrote:

Short answer: No.

But I’ll break it down for you.

You cannot reconcile monotheism with tritheism.

Nontrinitarians understood that early on and broke apart from the mainstream.

So, for a lot of people (Jews, Muslims, Nontrinitarians and Atheists), you are hardly Monotheistic.

Because of the absurdity (sorry, couldn’t find a nicer word) of the trinity concept and the fact that it only appeared in 325 AD, some believe that since you claim to be Monotheistic we must be praying to the same God, even though you don’t know it. Oftentimes I prayed in a church.
[/quote]

The trinity concept was codified in 325, it had appeared much earlier. The codification of the concept sought to reconcile fact that Jesus as a man was much more than human, he was God-like. Thus the concept is simply an explanation to has to how God manifests himself. Take water for instance, it can exist in different states yet it is still water. You don’t take water for being another substance simply because it appears as steam or ice.

178

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
From this verse in the Quran, do you think he is talking about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), in regards that he was preferred among others? Do you think he is talking about Jesus? No disrespct towards Jesus, I’m just wondering.[/quote]

I interpret it as referring to all prophets. Muhammad, Jesus and all the gang (peace be upon them).

That’s actually something I picked up from a biography of Muhammad by Etienne Dinet. He supports his position by the following verse.

“O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto you and unto your mother; how I strengthened you with the holy Spirit, so that you spoke unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity;” 5:109

Also, you have to agree that he was the only one prophet (besides Adam) to be born “unnaturally”.

[quote]On one special night, Angel Gabriel took the Prophet Muhammad up through the seven heavens. At the last stage of heaven, Angel Gabriel told Prophet Muhammad, I cannot go any further, you are the only person who can be directly in the presence of God, and you are the only person who will ever be this close to God. The Prophet Muhammad ascended upwards, and this is when God revealed the 5 pillars of Islam to Prophet Muhammad. I would say that is the ultimate honor.
[/quote]

Whether that really happened or was a dream is debatable. But I agree with you that Mohammed is probably higher up than most.

179

[quote]lixy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
From this verse in the Quran, do you think he is talking about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), in regards that he was preferred among others? Do you think he is talking about Jesus? No disrespct towards Jesus, I’m just wondering.

I interpret it as referring to all prophets. Muhammad, Jesus and all the gang (peace be upon them).[/quote]

I agree with you on this one. I think the verse meant the prophets as a group are higher in status than the general population.

And why do you think Jesus has a special position among prophets because of the holy spirit component? Again, no disrespect, I would like to hear your reasoning.

That’s actually something I picked up from a biography of Muhammad by Etienne Dinet. He supports his position by the following verse.

“O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto you and unto your mother; how I strengthened you with the holy Spirit, so that you spoke unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity;” 5:109

Also, you have to agree that he was the only one prophet (besides Adam) to be born “unnaturally”.[/quote]

I will agree with you on this one.

On one special night, Angel Gabriel took the Prophet Muhammad up through the seven heavens. At the last stage of heaven, Angel Gabriel told Prophet Muhammad, I cannot go any further, you are the only person who can be directly in the presence of God, and you are the only person who will ever be this close to God. The Prophet Muhammad ascended upwards, and this is when God revealed the 5 pillars of Islam to Prophet Muhammad. I would say that is the ultimate honor.

Whether that really happened or was a dream is debatable. But I agree with you that Mohammed is probably higher up than most.[/quote]

Yes this was a dream, I typed it in wrong. My apologies.

In his dream, on each level of heaven, there was a different prophet. Jesus was on the sixth level, and Abraham was on the seventh level.

180

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
Any way you slice it, the tiny minority routine your so fond of referring to, yields rather deadly results.[/quote]

Yes, it does. The reason for that is their fanatic devotion transcending life. You can do a lot more damage if you’re not afraid of dying.

I could tell you the same thing about Jews. Except that it’s been going on for ages in their case.

The Darfur conflict has very little to do with religion. That’s at least the picture painted to me by inhabitants of the region on both sides. I cannot begin to express my disgust at the decision of the Arab league to turn a blind eye to the massacre. I decided to go there to see what’s happening for myself this summer.

[quote]Or, your thoughts on the following?
Muslims converts face ostracism in France[/quote]

You should see what’s happening in Algeria! It’s even worse. The rate of converts peaked after 9/11 thanks to scaremongering media.

But you’re comparing apples and oranges. What would happen if a guy in the Vatican decided to convert? Or a Pole? Or an Israeli? Chances are they’ll be just as rejected by their families as whoever was mentioned in your article.

Also, how about all the aggressions, threats and other abuses faced by Muslim communities in the US and the UK after 9/11 and 7/7 respectively? Were they the act of a few bad apples or were did they have general consent? Do these acts give me the right to say that Americans and Brits are savages?