Religion of Peace

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
… As far as the divinity of Jesus that is a seperate matter and really isn’t worshiping God but something like how the Greeks/Romans worshiped the offpring of gods.

You do not understand Christianity if you make this statement.

Saying the god of Islam and the Christian god is the same guy is like saying American football and Rugby football and Soccer are all the same sport.

Same roots but not the same thing.[/quote]

No, not quite. If you are a Christian you worship Isaac’s God who is one of Abraham’s eight sons; if you are a Muslim you worship Ishmael’s God–supposedly Abraham’s rejected son according to the Gospel of Paul in Galatians (ironically it’s his first born son of a concubine).

Logically, if you believe these two brothers to be the patriarchs of Christianity and Islam, respectively, and you also believe them to have worshipped the same God as brothers then you must accept that all of the Abrahamic religions worship the same God.

142

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
… As far as the divinity of Jesus that is a seperate matter and really isn’t worshiping God but something like how the Greeks/Romans worshiped the offpring of gods.

You do not understand Christianity if you make this statement.

Saying the god of Islam and the Christian god is the same guy is like saying American football and Rugby football and Soccer are all the same sport.

Same roots but not the same thing.[/quote]

You do not understand God if you make an analogy like that.

God is the root of all things. Period. Religions are superficial and temporal, they are bound to man, the only common denominator is that of God, all-powerful, all-knowing, timeless…etc.

How are you going to reconcile the existence of multiple omniscient, omnipotent, all-powerful Gods? you cannot deny their existence, lest you deny the existence of your own as well. So you look to the holy texts, it is all there, put the pieces together and see the oneness of God.

You would understand God’s message, and the purpose for the prophets, and the passage of time, and the evolution of modern man. Judaism, to Christianity, to Islam and to Bahai. Same God, same message, different people, different interpretations. The relevant point being that, in the hands of man, God can only be understood through specific context(the torah, the new testament, the quran, the kitab-i-aqdas and its auxiliary scriptures). But all of that is meaningless next to the everlasting.

Trying to pigeonhole God into an us and them argument is completely missing the point of God in the first place. It is a completely irrelevant side-argument that (should) serves no purpose. There is no us and them. God is the root of it all, God is us and them.

143

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
… As far as the divinity of Jesus that is a seperate matter and really isn’t worshiping God but something like how the Greeks/Romans worshiped the offpring of gods.

You do not understand Christianity if you make this statement.

Saying the god of Islam and the Christian god is the same guy is like saying American football and Rugby football and Soccer are all the same sport.

Same roots but not the same thing.

No, not quite. If you are a Christian you worship Isaac’s God who is one of Abraham’s eight sons; if you are a Muslim you worship Ishmael’s God–supposedly Abraham’s rejected son according to the Gospel of Paul in Galatians (ironically it’s his first born son of a concubine).

Logically, if you believe these two brothers to be the patriarchs of Christianity and Islam, respectively, and you also believe them to have worshipped the same God as brothers then you must accept that all of the Abrahamic religions worship the same God.[/quote]

In Islam, all the prophets came down the lineage of Isaac, except one — Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), who came down the lineage of Ishmael.

But they all worship the same God, there is one God, there is not a different God for Islam, Christianity, and Judiasm, there is one God, and these religions worship the same Oneness of God, in different.

Prophet Muhammad said: All of the Prophets are brothers. Our mothers are different, but our love of the same God is one.

144

Zap Branigan, shoebolt, and TQB,

I apologize for getting carried away about the spelling of Quran.

As a Muslim being born and raised in the US, every Islamic holy book I see is spelled Quran, not Koran. The holy book sitting next to me says Quran. Since I have been raised and taught this spelling, I feel it is correct.

My apologies, hopefully no hard feelings. I will not rehash this topic again.

145

[quote]derek wrote:
shamus wrote:
I’m the one that started this thread yet I have been getting more aquainted with Islam with the help of a Muslim within this thread and learning about Islam as we go along.[/quote]

Derek,

Who has been helping you get more acquainted with Islam? If it’s not me, then I am more than happy to teach you about Islam.

146

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
… As far as the divinity of Jesus that is a seperate matter and really isn’t worshiping God but something like how the Greeks/Romans worshiped the offpring of gods.

You do not understand Christianity if you make this statement.

Saying the god of Islam and the Christian god is the same guy is like saying American football and Rugby football and Soccer are all the same sport.

Same roots but not the same thing.

You do not understand God if you make an analogy like that.

God is the root of all things. Period. Religions are superficial and temporal, they are bound to man, the only common denominator is that of God, all-powerful, all-knowing, timeless…etc.

How are you going to reconcile the existence of multiple omniscient, omnipotent, all-powerful Gods? you cannot deny their existence, lest you deny the existence of your own as well. So you look to the holy texts, it is all there, put the pieces together and see the oneness of God.

You would understand God’s message, and the purpose for the prophets, and the passage of time, and the evolution of modern man. Judaism, to Christianity, to Islam and to Bahai. Same God, same message, different people, different interpretations. The relevant point being that, in the hands of man, God can only be understood through specific context(the torah, the new testament, the quran, the kitab-i-aqdas and its auxiliary scriptures). But all of that is meaningless next to the everlasting.

Trying to pigeonhole God into an us and them argument is completely missing the point of God in the first place. It is a completely irrelevant side-argument that (should) serves no purpose. There is no us and them. God is the root of it all, God is us and them. [/quote]

Either one religion or the other worships a false god. They cannot both be right. If either religion claims that the other religion is worshiping the same god it invalidates much of their beliefs.

You could also claim pagans worship the same god but they view him in many forms as opposed to one. Is Odin or Zeus the same as Allah or Yahweh?

147

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
Zap Branigan, shoebolt, and TQB,

I apologize for getting carried away about the spelling of Quran.

As a Muslim being born and raised in the US, every Islamic holy book I see is spelled Quran, not Koran. The holy book sitting next to me says Quran. Since I have been raised and taught this spelling, I feel it is correct.

My apologies, hopefully no hard feelings. I will not rehash this topic again.[/quote]

No hard feelings at all.

148

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Either one religion or the other worships a false god. They cannot both be right. If either religion claims that the other religion is worshiping the same god it invalidates much of their beliefs.

[/quote]
Same god + different religious practices = inconsistency

Which is why many students of logic are atheists. It’s much easier to not believe (or just blindly believe) than scrape away all the inconsistencies.

149

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
JeffR wrote:
lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I think it would be helpful to have guys that are obviously hostile to the United States like lixy begin this discussion with an unequivocal denunciation of terrorist acts by islamic terrorists against civilians.

Thanks for drawing my attention to that fact. It’s just that it seemed trivial that anyone would be appalled by such demonstration of hatred and incitation to violence. I highly condemn such actions and actively fight them

This is a no-brainer, I denounce (and fight if necessary) anyone who harms another human being calls for harming one or even thinks of doing one or the other, regardless of nationality, race, religion or gender. I especially abhor such demonstrations of distilled hatred that condone terrorist actions, give Muslims a bad name and would definitely ashame the prophet Mohammed.

Hoping it’s unequivocal enough for you.

Unless there is a clear and unambiguous denunciation of these tactics, the conversation between an American and lixy should end immediately.

I take it as an honor to be the subject of a Fatwa decreed by JeffR.

Well, lixy.

I appreciate your response.

Let me add my own: Real Americans mourn each and every civilian death that occurs in the combat zone. Real Americans do not condone torture of anyone innocent. True Americans are saddened when we fall short of the ideals for which we stand.

JeffR

So I assume your very much against the newest torture bill then?

I told you clearly that I was against torturing innocents. I encourage torture against any terrorist.

Got it?

JeffR

[/quote]

The bill gives the right to torture anyone. Not just confirmed terrorists.

Anyone who “may be a danger to the US”.

And it’s already confirmed we tortured a few innocents already.

150

[quote]shamus wrote:
Hanzo wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Hanzo wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

When evaluating a RELIGION, TIME PERIOD matters SHIT.

The religion is timeless. It hasn’t changed. Christianity is just as disgusting as it was in the middle ages, the people who practice it are just less violent now.

no, it does matter. historical and contemporary philosophical contexts matter very much when evaluating a religion, or at least Christianity. weren’t you the one that just tried to compare the actions of adherents based on their age then you turn around and say time doesn’t matter.

That was the point. I was making the assertion that the actions of the followers do not always reflect the religion.

oh, didn’t sense the sarcasm. my mistake

Religion has caused 99% of the conflicts in history. Taxes are the other 1%.
I pray to my dog,Buddy. He’s a good confidant![/quote]

Bullshit.

Religion was the EXCUSE for 99% of conflict. It all comes down to two real factors:

Fear and Power.

Fear; of those who are different, of those who may hurt you, of those who may change you.

Power; in land, in money, in lives, in military strength.

If religion didn’t exist, we’d fight over what to call ourselves. The Atheist Alliance, the Atheist League, the League of Goodness, the Super Fun People would slaughter eachother all the same.

151

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
No, christians, jews, and muslims do not worship the same god. According to Christians Christ was God. Part of the Trinity God-head, if you will. Don’t forget the Holy Spirit factor either.

To muslims he was was a prophet. That isn’t believing in the same god. They may share many of the same religious figures, but their respective God is vastly different. It’s like me throwing turkey between two slices of bread and insisting it’s a ham sandwich. Hey I still used bread, after all.

Exactly. Since religion is merely mans flawed interpretation of the possible existence of a higher being this whole discussion can be viewed as silly but if we were to take it to the logical conclusion each religion must believe the other religions are incorrect and worshiping a false god.

Christianity believes Jesus is the son of god. Islam and Judaism do not.

This is a fundamental divergence.

Only one or the other can be correct. One religion may be worshiping the real god while the others are worshiping a false interpretation.

Claiming they are the same god is like claiming man and ape are the same creature because they evolved from the same starting point millions of years ago.

Of course if there is a higher power (and on beautiful mornings like this I sometime believe there is) I am sure he or she laughs at our petty religious squabbles. [/quote]

I believe I was being misunderstood. I mean to say this; Islam worships the same God that Christians do in the sense that they believe the Christians have it all wrong about Him. In the sense that all Monotheistic religions MUST worship the same God, because there is only One God in them, and not multiple ones.

Otherwise, I gotta agree with what you said., Good post.

152

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Malevolence wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
… As far as the divinity of Jesus that is a seperate matter and really isn’t worshiping God but something like how the Greeks/Romans worshiped the offpring of gods.

You do not understand Christianity if you make this statement.

Saying the god of Islam and the Christian god is the same guy is like saying American football and Rugby football and Soccer are all the same sport.

Same roots but not the same thing.

You do not understand God if you make an analogy like that.

God is the root of all things. Period. Religions are superficial and temporal, they are bound to man, the only common denominator is that of God, all-powerful, all-knowing, timeless…etc.

How are you going to reconcile the existence of multiple omniscient, omnipotent, all-powerful Gods? you cannot deny their existence, lest you deny the existence of your own as well. So you look to the holy texts, it is all there, put the pieces together and see the oneness of God.

You would understand God’s message, and the purpose for the prophets, and the passage of time, and the evolution of modern man. Judaism, to Christianity, to Islam and to Bahai. Same God, same message, different people, different interpretations. The relevant point being that, in the hands of man, God can only be understood through specific context(the torah, the new testament, the quran, the kitab-i-aqdas and its auxiliary scriptures). But all of that is meaningless next to the everlasting.

Trying to pigeonhole God into an us and them argument is completely missing the point of God in the first place. It is a completely irrelevant side-argument that (should) serves no purpose. There is no us and them. God is the root of it all, God is us and them.

Either one religion or the other worships a false god. They cannot both be right. If either religion claims that the other religion is worshiping the same god it invalidates much of their beliefs.

You could also claim pagans worship the same god but they view him in many forms as opposed to one. Is Odin or Zeus the same as Allah or Yahweh?

[/quote]

It is not a question of “right”. Thinking that is missing the point entirely. It is not either/or, it is not false and true. God transcends these distinctions and exists beyond what man can comprehend. God is everlasting.

Consider the holy trinity. How do you reconcile three entities being the same entity? simultaneously, and transcendently? It is no different. God is removed from such distinctions, they are irrelevant.

Ancient gods are just that. They are gods, but they are not God. Anything can be a god, anything can be worshiped and believed to be all-powerful, that is onto man to decide. But the oneness of God, is above and beyond that distinction.

For you to profess that the muslim God is somehow different than your God, is to deny your God’s existence. There is no “your” with God, there is no “my” with God.

153

[quote]lixy wrote:
derek wrote:
Now, why would anyone think that we should have any fear or be at war with such nice, peaceful Islamists?!

Because they don’t know any better than demonize a whole community based on a few bad apples.

Any link to the page on which those pics appeared, please? Thanks in advance.[/quote]

It’s more than a few bad apples and the entire Muslim community should be demonized until they stand up and publicly denounced the violence that there fellow Muslims are committing around world. What they allow they condone!

154

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
derek wrote:
shamus wrote:
I’m the one that started this thread yet I have been getting more aquainted with Islam with the help of a Muslim within this thread and learning about Islam as we go along.

Derek,

Who has been helping you get more acquainted with Islam? If it’s not me, then I am more than happy to teach you about Islam.[/quote]

Nope, it was you I was talking about. Thanks again.

155

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
lixy wrote:
derek wrote:
Now, why would anyone think that we should have any fear or be at war with such nice, peaceful Islamists?!

Because they don’t know any better than demonize a whole community based on a few bad apples.

Any link to the page on which those pics appeared, please? Thanks in advance.

It’s more than a few bad apples and the entire Muslim community should be demonized until they stand up and publicly denounced the violence that there fellow Muslims are committing around world. What they allow they condone!

[/quote]

How about chastised? Demonizing them makes you no better.

156

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
shamus wrote:
Hanzo wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Hanzo wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

When evaluating a RELIGION, TIME PERIOD matters SHIT.

The religion is timeless. It hasn’t changed. Christianity is just as disgusting as it was in the middle ages, the people who practice it are just less violent now.

no, it does matter. historical and contemporary philosophical contexts matter very much when evaluating a religion, or at least Christianity. weren’t you the one that just tried to compare the actions of adherents based on their age then you turn around and say time doesn’t matter.

That was the point. I was making the assertion that the actions of the followers do not always reflect the religion.

oh, didn’t sense the sarcasm. my mistake

Religion has caused 99% of the conflicts in history. Taxes are the other 1%.
I pray to my dog,Buddy. He’s a good confidant!

Bullshit.

Religion was the EXCUSE for 99% of conflict. It all comes down to two real factors:

Fear and Power.

Fear; of those who are different, of those who may hurt you, of those who may change you.

Power; in land, in money, in lives, in military strength.

If religion didn’t exist, we’d fight over what to call ourselves. The Atheist Alliance, the Atheist League, the League of Goodness, the Super Fun People would slaughter eachother all the same.
[/quote]

Ok, I mis-spoke, religion itself isn’t the cause of the conflicts, it was those trying to force their beliefs on others or denying others the right to worship as they choose. Like I said in another thread, Just as we may never know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop, we may never know who’s beliefs are correct. At least, until we’re dead.

157

[quote]derek wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
derek wrote:
shamus wrote:
I’m the one that started this thread yet I have been getting more aquainted with Islam with the help of a Muslim within this thread and learning about Islam as we go along.

Derek,

Who has been helping you get more acquainted with Islam? If it’s not me, then I am more than happy to teach you about Islam.

Nope, it was you I was talking about. Thanks again.

[/quote]

No problem Derek, glad to help. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me or ask me on here, and I’ll be happy to share some info with you.

158

[quote]shamus wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
shamus wrote:
Hanzo wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Hanzo wrote:
Beowolf wrote:

When evaluating a RELIGION, TIME PERIOD matters SHIT.

The religion is timeless. It hasn’t changed. Christianity is just as disgusting as it was in the middle ages, the people who practice it are just less violent now.

no, it does matter. historical and contemporary philosophical contexts matter very much when evaluating a religion, or at least Christianity. weren’t you the one that just tried to compare the actions of adherents based on their age then you turn around and say time doesn’t matter.

That was the point. I was making the assertion that the actions of the followers do not always reflect the religion.

oh, didn’t sense the sarcasm. my mistake

Religion has caused 99% of the conflicts in history. Taxes are the other 1%.
I pray to my dog,Buddy. He’s a good confidant!

Bullshit.

Religion was the EXCUSE for 99% of conflict. It all comes down to two real factors:

Fear and Power.

Fear; of those who are different, of those who may hurt you, of those who may change you.

Power; in land, in money, in lives, in military strength.

If religion didn’t exist, we’d fight over what to call ourselves. The Atheist Alliance, the Atheist League, the League of Goodness, the Super Fun People would slaughter eachother all the same.

Ok, I mis-spoke, religion itself isn’t the cause of the conflicts, it was those trying to force their beliefs on others or denying others the right to worship as they choose. Like I said in another thread, Just as we may never know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop, we may never know who’s beliefs are correct. At least, until we’re dead.[/quote]

But still, the wars were less about wanting to convert people, and mroe about wanting to control important pieces of land. The Crusades were about MUCH more than religion, ya know. And many wars had nothing to do with religion at all. World War One and Two ring any bells? Vietnam, Korea, Cold War, Iraq, Gulf War… tons of wars had little to no directly religious cause.

159

[quote]Malevolence wrote:

In that case, accept the fact that Muslims are praying to your God just as intently as you are.[/quote]

Oh, I didn’t know Muslims believed Jesus Christ was God. How can you say muslims are praying to my god?

160

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Unfortunately, you can’t have it both ways. The Abrahamic religions share the same roots because they are born out of the same God. You cannot be a monotheist and believe in two different Gods. [/quote]

Err, I DON’T believe in their God. So, I’m not having it both ways…I do not believe in their concept of God. Period. Stop. Do not pass Go. I believe in a Triune God of which Jesus Christ is a Divine part.