Religion of Forgiveness (Now with 25% More Hypocrisy)

Cockney_Blue · November 3, 2009, 7:13pm

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Dustin wrote:
…
Religion wasn’t used to justify it other than the purging of the religious because “religion poisons the mind”. These dudes had the same opinion of religion you do, but they took it a step further.

Religion has been used to justify rape, murder, and torture. European history is full of examples.

I don’t see how you could argue otherwise.

And my opinion of religion is not like “those dudes”.

Sure it was. But money, property, and slaves were greater motivation. That is why the forefathers pulled religion out of politics. It made things ugly. Religion was used by people against people because it was a powerful tool to lord over people. You will find though, that the religious belief itself wasn’t the driving force behind the evil acts, but a tool used to control the unwashed and often uneducated masses. Religion as the driving force to commit evil is a rather new phenomenon.

Interesting that you don’t make the logical connection that this is where relgion comes from in the first place.

When you look at the example of Stalin, he claimed atheism but basically ended up with a religion. It is far easier to tell people to do something because God wants it done and will be angry otherwise than it is to properly educate and explain things to a population.

I thought you said atheism isn’t a religion? How then could a self avowed atheist who was hell bent on destroying religion and the religious simultaneously claim religion? Stalin did not do this. He did not believe in God and killed with impunity those who did…You really reaching.

My explanation was that religion was used as a method to commit many of the grievous acts in history rather than religion being the motivator for such acts. Especially when in many cases the acts are strictly forbidden in the religion.
For instance, a lot of you atheists like to bring up the Spanish inquisition. But the Spanish had just come out of long conflict with the Moors. The inquisition was their policy to purge Spain of the rest, a comply or die attitude. Pope Sixtus was very much against it, but he could not do anything about it as the Spanish had an army and the church did not.

You can be an atheist all you want, I don’t really care, but don’t come saying your smarter, better, can squat more, or are morally superior in any way because of it, 'cause you ain’t. Taking snap shots of bad things doesn’t prove your point, I can counter argue forever and quite frankly, I have more ammo.[/quote]

Atheism isn’t a religion. That is the point.

Stalin took a group of religious people and suplanted their religion with his own religion of personality. He did this because religion is a great way to control populations. People have known this for a very long time, Emperor Constantine also knew this.

Cockney_Blue · November 3, 2009, 7:20pm

[quote]pat wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pat wrote:
Dustin wrote:
…
Religion wasn’t used to justify it other than the purging of the religious because “religion poisons the mind”. These dudes had the same opinion of religion you do, but they took it a step further.

Religion has been used to justify rape, murder, and torture. European history is full of examples.

I don’t see how you could argue otherwise.

And my opinion of religion is not like “those dudes”.

Sure it was. But money, property, and slaves were greater motivation. That is why the forefathers pulled religion out of politics. It made things ugly. Religion was used by people against people because it was a powerful tool to lord over people. You will find though, that the religious belief itself wasn’t the driving force behind the evil acts, but a tool used to control the unwashed and often uneducated masses. Religion as the driving force to commit evil is a rather new phenomenon.

When atheism is raked over the coals for evils done in it’s name, we hear all about how it was twisted and abused. Perverted by state power. Misused in it’s twisted form to bend others to the state’s true goals. Maybe something to do with borders, or economics, or for a simple obedience of value to the state. Could this have been the case with a religion? No! All religions are totalitarian! All the same! We turn to the new testament, where Christ has charged his apostles to raise up armies, and spread the “good news” at the point of the sword!

But forget all that. Cast your mind foward in time. Imagine. What will Atheitopia look like? How often do we hear ourselves described as, ‘sheeple,’ ‘brainwashed,’ and ‘child brainwashers (thus, abusers)?’ We stunt progress. We seem to be one election away from installing a christian state. We are child-like in our mentality. We are ‘irrational.’ We aren’t among the “brights.” No, we are the dim. Why should the dim, irrational, brainwashing brainwashed, sheeple, participate in shaping society? Why should their children be left in irrational homes to be brainwashed by the dim?

Just saying.

Yeah I like the implication that atheists behaving badly was just an anomaly, but all Christians are all blood thirsty pedophiles, who fuck little boys and murder their parents, because out of 2.1 billion people in the world, a few have done bad things. Makes sense don’t it? We must think it’s ok to do bad because others who believe like us have done bad, but those tyrannical murders who held more than half the world hostage for most of the 20th century were simply just a couple of bad guys. They had no help, it was only them and their magic wands.
[/quote]

My issue with Christian religion is that it indoctrinates young children to avoid logic, not question and blindly follow without evidence. If people were making a free decision as an adult that would be one thing, for the most part however they are not.

It actually doesn’t matter whether an atheist state would be a more pleasant or less pleasant place, (though my personal feeling is that the greater intellectual honesty would lead to a better society) that is not the argument. The argument is to pull back the cloak and look at things in the cold light of day. If people choose to believe then fine, let them believe whatever they like but keep the religion 100% separate from the state.

PRCalDude · November 3, 2009, 7:25pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Atheism isn’t a religion. That is the point.

[/quote]

No, the point is that man is inherently religious. Just because man chooses not to worship “God” doesn’t mean his inherent religiosity vanishes. Rather, “God” is replaced by something else, like Dear Leader or Caesar.

Cockney_Blue · November 3, 2009, 7:26pm

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Sloth wrote:
pat wrote:
Dustin wrote:
…
Religion wasn’t used to justify it other than the purging of the religious because “religion poisons the mind”. These dudes had the same opinion of religion you do, but they took it a step further.

Religion has been used to justify rape, murder, and torture. European history is full of examples.

I don’t see how you could argue otherwise.

And my opinion of religion is not like “those dudes”.

Sure it was. But money, property, and slaves were greater motivation. That is why the forefathers pulled religion out of politics. It made things ugly. Religion was used by people against people because it was a powerful tool to lord over people. You will find though, that the religious belief itself wasn’t the driving force behind the evil acts, but a tool used to control the unwashed and often uneducated masses. Religion as the driving force to commit evil is a rather new phenomenon.

When atheism is raked over the coals for evils done in it’s name, we hear all about how it was twisted and abused. Perverted by state power. Misused in it’s twisted form to bend others to the state’s true goals. Maybe something to do with borders, or economics, or for a simple obedience of value to the state. Could this have been the case with a religion? No! All religions are totalitarian! All the same! We turn to the new testament, where Christ has charged his apostles to raise up armies, and spread the “good news” at the point of the sword!

But forget all that. Cast your mind foward in time. Imagine. What will Atheitopia look like? How often do we hear ourselves described as, ‘sheeple,’ ‘brainwashed,’ and ‘child brainwashers (thus, abusers)?’ We stunt progress. We seem to be one election away from installing a christian state. We are child-like in our mentality. We are ‘irrational.’ We aren’t among the “brights.” No, we are the dim. Why should the dim, irrational, brainwashing brainwashed, sheeple, participate in shaping society? Why should their children be left in irrational homes to be brainwashed by the dim?

Just saying.

Agreed. Every society that’s had atheism as the dominant religion has had the same characteristics. Instead of God, pictures of Dear Leader are put up for everyone to worship. Government genocide becomes widespread. 5 Year Plans and Great Leaps Forward are enacted. Gulags are established.

Even Nazism had its roots in the atheism of the thinkers of its time and the previous 100 years.

If you are an atheist, you have to be a scientific naturalist. If you are a scientific naturalist, you have to believe morality evolved with man. Something that “changes over time,” like an evolving morality, is no standard at all. “Yesterday I did things this way, but today I think doing things differently might help me survive better.” If I kill this guy over here and take his stuff, my offspring and genome are more likely to survive.

[/quote]

Yes you are right, that exactly describes the Czech Republic today (59% of population classify themselves as Agnostic, Atheist or Non Believer)

And as for evolving morality, that is exactly what you see in the Christian Church so are you claiming that hte Christian Church has no standard at all? Failing to evolve is the crime that you have levelled against Islam incidentally.

Cockney_Blue · November 3, 2009, 7:34pm

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Atheism isn’t a religion. That is the point.

No, the point is that man is inherently religious. Just because man chooses not to worship “God” doesn’t mean his inherent religiosity vanishes. Rather, “God” is replaced by something else, like Dear Leader or Caesar. [/quote]

So what you are saying is that all religion is man made but as we have a tendency towards belief in religion we should just give in to it and pick a religion?

Neuromancer · November 3, 2009, 7:48pm

Humans have an innate need to believe in something external to ourselves,an outside agency ordering,or giving meaning to,the Universe.It can manifest in any number of ways,of which religion is only one.Science can be seen as another.But an absence of belief really the seems to not be part of our make up.

Sloth · November 3, 2009, 7:53pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Atheism isn’t a religion. That is the point.

No, the point is that man is inherently religious. Just because man chooses not to worship “God” doesn’t mean his inherent religiosity vanishes. Rather, “God” is replaced by something else, like Dear Leader or Caesar.

So what you are saying is that all religion is man made but as we have a tendency towards belief in religion we should just give in to it and pick a religion?[/quote]

No. He didn’t say all religion is man-made. That doesn’t have to follow from man being inherently religious.

PRCalDude · November 3, 2009, 7:54pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Atheism isn’t a religion. That is the point.

No, the point is that man is inherently religious. Just because man chooses not to worship “God” doesn’t mean his inherent religiosity vanishes. Rather, “God” is replaced by something else, like Dear Leader or Caesar.

So what you are saying is that all religion is man made but as we have a tendency towards belief in religion we should just give in to it and pick a religion?

No. He didn’t say all religion is man-made. That doesn’t have to follow from man being inherently religious.[/quote]

Thank you.

Sloth · November 3, 2009, 3:00pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

And as for evolving morality, that is exactly what you see in the Christian Church so are you claiming that hte Christian Church has no standard at all? Failing to evolve is the crime that you have levelled against Islam incidentally.[/quote]

For a violent brand of Christianity to reject spreading the faith through the sword and repent, it must devolve. It need only look back at Christ sending forth the apostles, and the actions of the apostles in spreading the faith. When they’re rejected, some sandal shaking is done. Scary stuff. One can try to bring in the old testament as much as one wants, but Christianity is no longer part of the discussion.

Islam? Well, what happens when one turns the latter Muhammad? So yes, Islam must evolve. Someone will have to abrogate the Islam the abrogates the earliest Islam.

And atheism? Well, you guys don’t have an atheist morality in the first place. It’s purely subjective. Of no more value than the tooth and claw morality of any other animal. Except we have missile and gun instead, of course. You guys have said it before, atheists aren’t a group with moral doctrines. Yet, somehow you guys still insist the world would be better if the brainwashed-brainwashers ceased to exist. How can this claim be made, when you guys agree that you don’t agree at all?

PRCalDude · November 3, 2009, 7:54pm

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Humans have an innate need to believe in something external to ourselves,an outside agency ordering,or giving meaning to,the Universe.It can manifest in any number of ways,of which religion is only one.Science can be seen as another.But an absence of belief really the seems to not be part of our make up.[/quote]

Thank you for getting my point.

Cockney_Blue · November 3, 2009, 9:16pm

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Humans have an innate need to believe in something external to ourselves,an outside agency ordering,or giving meaning to,the Universe.It can manifest in any number of ways,of which religion is only one.Science can be seen as another.But an absence of belief really the seems to not be part of our make up.[/quote]

Not at all, we actually are designed to see patterns and to look for causes for effects. This is the exact same reason that people fall for superstitions so easily and believe in the paranormal with very little evidence. This says nothing at all about the truth of a God as it can easily be explained by evolutionary benefits.

Neuromancer · November 3, 2009, 9:23pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Humans have an innate need to believe in something external to ourselves,an outside agency ordering,or giving meaning to,the Universe.It can manifest in any number of ways,of which religion is only one.Science can be seen as another.But an absence of belief really the seems to not be part of our make up.

Not at all, we actually are designed to see patterns and to look for causes for effects. This is the exact same reason that people fall for superstitions so easily and believe in the paranormal with very little evidence. This says nothing at all about the truth of a God as it can easily be explained by evolutionary benefits.[/quote]

Did I say anything about the truth/existence of God?Read my post again.

PRCalDude · November 3, 2009, 9:24pm

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Humans have an innate need to believe in something external to ourselves,an outside agency ordering,or giving meaning to,the Universe.It can manifest in any number of ways,of which religion is only one.Science can be seen as another.But an absence of belief really the seems to not be part of our make up.

Not at all, we actually are designed to see patterns and to look for causes for effects. This is the exact same reason that people fall for superstitions so easily and believe in the paranormal with very little evidence. This says nothing at all about the truth of a God as it can easily be explained by evolutionary benefits.

Did I say anything about the truth/existence of God?Read my post again.[/quote]

lol.

C_B can’t help but read himself into everything.

Cockney_Blue · November 3, 2009, 9:25pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

And as for evolving morality, that is exactly what you see in the Christian Church so are you claiming that hte Christian Church has no standard at all? Failing to evolve is the crime that you have levelled against Islam incidentally.

For a violent brand of Christianity to reject spreading the faith through the sword and repent, it must devolve. It need only look back at Christ sending forth the apostles, and the actions of the apostles in spreading the faith. When they’re rejected, some sandal shaking is done. Scary stuff. One can try to bring in the old testament as much as one wants, but Christianity is no longer part of the discussion.

Islam? Well, what happens when one turns the latter Muhammad? So yes, Islam must evolve. Someone will have to abrogate the Islam the abrogates the earliest Islam.

And atheism? Well, you guys don’t have an atheist morality in the first place. It’s purely subjective. Of no more value than the tooth and claw morality of any other animal. Except we have missile and gun instead, of course. You guys have said it before, atheists aren’t a group with moral doctrines. Yet, somehow you guys still insist the world would be better if the brainwashed-brainwashers ceased to exist. How can this claim be made, when you guys agree that you don’t agree at all? [/quote]

Everybody’s morality is subjective and to a far greater degree than most people would like to admit. Tests have been done on this and shown that it is no less true for religious people.

Human morality is different to the tooth and claw morality of any other animals due to the faculty we have for reasoning. This is down to evolution though so feel free to reject it along with any other piece of rational logical thought.

I clearly stated that an atheist state is not necessarily a more pleasant state and that this is not the point.

If I choose to continue to believe in the Easter Bunny because it makes me feel more comfortable, that doesn’t make the Easter Bunny any more real.

Cockney_Blue · November 3, 2009, 4:36pm

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Humans have an innate need to believe in something external to ourselves,an outside agency ordering,or giving meaning to,the Universe.It can manifest in any number of ways,of which religion is only one.Science can be seen as another.But an absence of belief really the seems to not be part of our make up.

Not at all, we actually are designed to see patterns and to look for causes for effects. This is the exact same reason that people fall for superstitions so easily and believe in the paranormal with very little evidence. This says nothing at all about the truth of a God as it can easily be explained by evolutionary benefits.

Did I say anything about the truth/existence of God?Read my post again.[/quote]

No but your point of an absence of belief is misleading. An absence of belief in what? An absence of belief in Thor? Or Zeus? Or possibly YHWH? These things are obviously part of our make up because the majority of humans that have ever lived have not had these beliefs.

It is natural to ascribe events to an invisible power but it is also natural to investigate the nature of the power. Religion tells us to stop that investigation at a given step and is therefore unnatural.

pat · November 3, 2009, 9:44pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

My issue with Christian religion is that it indoctrinates young children to avoid logic, not question and blindly follow without evidence. If people were making a free decision as an adult that would be one thing, for the most part however they are not.
[/quote]
What? Well, it shows you know nothing about the Christianity. There are some bible-only evangelical sect that disavow all things not in the bible, but the Catholic Church does not follow. They invite you to think for yourself and to dig deep and discover the answers…Despite the which religion you follow, faith is always a one man journey.

[quote]
It actually doesn’t matter whether an atheist state would be a more pleasant or less pleasant place, (though my personal feeling is that the greater intellectual honesty would lead to a better society) that is not the argument. The argument is to pull back the cloak and look at things in the cold light of day. If people choose to believe then fine, let them believe whatever they like but keep the religion 100% separate from the state.[/quote]

Who isn’t for separation of church and state? Intellectual honesty would lead you at least to the conclusion on agnosticism. Atheism closes the possibility of God’s existence. At the very least, being intellectually honest, would lead you to the fact that you do not know.

We call it faith because all forms of reasoning fall short in our limited intellect and more importantly our inability to gather the pertinent data. For instance, outside of speculation, if we could identify that which was first brought into existence, we would know a lot more about it’s cause. But truth fully the answers are right in front of us at all times. We have this arrogance that we know so much and we are educated. Well, grab a toothpick and tell me everything you know about it and you will soon see that you know almost nothing about it.
All things are finite yet have infinite properties. Matter is solid, yet mostly space, light is infinite but can be destroyed.
To prove there is no God, you know to know everything and you cannot.

Cockney_Blue · November 3, 2009, 10:06pm

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

My issue with Christian religion is that it indoctrinates young children to avoid logic, not question and blindly follow without evidence. If people were making a free decision as an adult that would be one thing, for the most part however they are not.

What? Well, it shows you know nothing about the Christianity. There are some bible-only evangelical sect that disavow all things not in the bible, but the Catholic Church does not follow. They invite you to think for yourself and to dig deep and discover the answers…Despite the which religion you follow, faith is always a one man journey.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church don’t really invite you to think for yourself though. They resisted the translation of bibles into the common tongue precisely to control what was thought by the masses. If the Catholic Church really welcomed people questioning it then they would not discourage the reading of the gnostic texts for instance, they also wouldn’t bury manuscripts that conflict with the party line in their vaults.

Here I think you are falling down because you are not correctly defining atheism. Atheism is not the belief that there is no god. Atheism is the lack of belief that there is a God. This is a very important distinction.

Now there are people who will tell you they are certain that there is no God and I agree that they are equally misguided as people who believe that the God as described by a dessert living tribe a few thousand years ago is listening to their thoughts and cares about them individually. My position on it is that we have a working model of the universe that doesn’t need a God in it therefore I see no reason to arbitrarily add a God to the model.

[quote]

We call it faith because all forms of reasoning fall short in our limited intellect and more importantly our inability to gather the pertinent data. For instance, outside of speculation, if we could identify that which was first brought into existence, we would know a lot more about it’s cause. But truth fully the answers are right in front of us at all times. We have this arrogance that we know so much and we are educated. Well, grab a toothpick and tell me everything you know about it and you will soon see that you know almost nothing about it.
All things are finite yet have infinite properties. Matter is solid, yet mostly space, light is infinite but can be destroyed.
To prove there is no God, you know to know everything and you cannot. [/quote]

I agree, but this works in reverse, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for there being a sentient God so why would anyone choose to believe in one?

Neuromancer · November 3, 2009, 10:07pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Humans have an innate need to believe in something external to ourselves,an outside agency ordering,or giving meaning to,the Universe.It can manifest in any number of ways,of which religion is only one.Science can be seen as another.But an absence of belief really the seems to not be part of our make up.

Not at all, we actually are designed to see patterns and to look for causes for effects. This is the exact same reason that people fall for superstitions so easily and believe in the paranormal with very little evidence. This says nothing at all about the truth of a God as it can easily be explained by evolutionary benefits.

Did I say anything about the truth/existence of God?Read my post again.

No but your point of an absence of belief is misleading. An absence of belief in what? An absence of belief in Thor? Or Zeus? Or possibly YHWH? These things are obviously part of our make up because the majority of humans that have ever lived have not had these beliefs.

It is natural to ascribe events to an invisible power but it is also natural to investigate the nature of the power. Religion tells us to stop that investigation at a given step and is therefore unnatural.[/quote]

Let me rephrase in a way that may be more understandable for you,because you are tying yourself up in knots and not making much sense in trying to reach a conclusion that my post said absolutely nothing about.

a.Most people in the world that are alive now and have lived before believe/d in something/someone outside of themselves that gave structure/meaning/pattern.

b.This may be,but is not limited to,religion,science,evolution,political system,personality cults,Thor,God,Yaweh,Odin,Satan or long deep wet kisses that last for three days.

c.My statements made no claim as to the validity/lack thereof or value of any of the aforementioned systems.

d.So to me,it appears that a person who has an absence of belief would be in the very small minority and a nihilist to boot.Therefore,the vast majority of people have beliefs in things they will never in their lives be able to confirm other than by third party accounts,if they’re lucky.

E.So human beings appear to have a built in need to believe,for whatever reason.I made no claim to know the reason,and I don’t have to for my point to be valid.

Brother_Chris · November 3, 2009, 10:10pm

[quote]Dustin wrote:
pat wrote:
Dustin wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
For every one atheist leader who has carried out atrocities I can give you 100 religious leaders.

Let’s cut to the chase and quit the masturbating. Bottom line you think you are better and smarter because you think atheism is right and the shit and you want everybody else to think the same.

And you know that you are superior to me because your God loves you whereas I am going to hell.

I don’t want everyone to think the same, I am just surprised that otherwise rational intelligent people cannot see how obvious the fallacies and falsehoods in religion are.

But again I say there are none so blind as those that will not see.

Feel free to dispute the facts of the article with facts. The fact that a very little known document at the time was referred to in a footnote is hardly a smoking gun. Second, it is this pope who officially signed in to church ‘law’ on the correct way of dealing with these acts of abuse trumping all previous documents.

Second, these “isolated incidents by a few people” managed to murder over 300 million and counting and enslave half the world with their oppressive regimes; more than half if you look at sheer land mass. Them are some pretty major “small isolated incidents”. This is a matter of historical fact.

You can list 100 religious leader to me mentioning 1 atheist tyrant? Fine, I go with Pol Pot…Now list 100 religious leaders who engaged in terrible acts on people, sexually or other wise.

OK I see your Saloth Sar (even though he went to a Roman Catholic School and was actually a Theravada Buddhist, not an atheist) and raise you 5,000 buggering priests (numbers admitted by the Roman Catholic Church.)

So give me another 49 Atheist atrocity mongers and I will respond again.

All the folks who did this:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

Ah ok I see where you went wrong. You see a Catholic educated Marxist Communist with a God complex and you see that as Atheist (interesting parallel between our mate Saloth and Stalin.)

And you will find while they were in their seminaries and or Catholic schools they did not commit such atrocities, only after they rejected their religion did they murder, torture, rape, with impunity.

I can also use religion to justify these horrible acts. And I wouldn’t be the first to do it.

Religion wasn’t used to justify it other than the purging of the religious because “religion poisons the mind”. These dudes had the same opinion of religion you do, but they took it a step further.

Religion has been used to justify rape, murder, and torture. European history is full of examples.

I don’t see how you could argue otherwise.

And my opinion of religion is not like “those dudes”. [/quote]

So because someone said religion, God is false or something. I am not following, many people have raped murdered and tortured in the name of almost all countries. I do not see you saying countries are not real or some weird illogical shit. Sure I could go out and kill someone and say hey Catholic church told me too, or it was for the Catholic Church. Unless the leader of the Catholic Church told me too then I’m just spewing shit, and if the Pope did tell me, it is on that Pope. The Church is seen as the body of God’s wife, and sometimes different parts of the body become infected, ill, sick, etc. And if the Bible itself says you should be willing to cut off your own hand if it causes you to sin. So it should be then the Church is supposed to check itself when things may be wrong. Yet, when the Pope decrees something and the member follow it, it is not the followers who are punished. It is the Pope. It should also not be the entire Church that is blamed, it should be the Pope.

Cockney_Blue · November 3, 2009, 10:13pm

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Humans have an innate need to believe in something external to ourselves,an outside agency ordering,or giving meaning to,the Universe.It can manifest in any number of ways,of which religion is only one.Science can be seen as another.But an absence of belief really the seems to not be part of our make up.