Religion of Forgiveness (Now with 25% More Hypocrisy)

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
321

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy

Oh really?
What things have been proven wrong? And how specifically, do they prove there is no God. This I got to hear.

Loads of things from the bible have been proved wrong, like the universe being created in 7days and that we all came from Adam and Eve. How much more is needed?

Oh you mean the inconclusive research where at the end the scientist suppose that this or that might be true. Like I said the Bible is made from Divine tradition. You can’t prove anything to be true or not, is it me or does anyone else think that evidence thousands of years old might be a little difficult to rely on since it is likely tampered with?

And for the people that believe in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution, pick up the complete book and read the entire thing.

From what I know of Catholicism I thought that the Bible was the inspired word of God given to his people. I also think that the Bible can be prooven, but not all of it because things that are yet to come can not be prooven. I think that since the Catholic Monks that copied the manuscripts from thousands of years ago; a Catholic would believe that they had not been tampered with.

Well this is what I have studied (secondary). The Bible is written divinely. However, it comes from tradition (how the events are seen, how they are thought of, etc.), people did not write in the note books as things occurred, it was carried by word of mouth. So, you know how word of mouth works when transferring a direct message. As well once it was written down, people know history is written by the victor. All that aside, things are considered fairly concrete if it lasts for 4-5 generations. Well, it has been more than 4-5 generations since the Bible was completed and the last canon, and the Bible is 1) logical and 2) long lasting.

The thing people have trouble with is the tradition part, you have to understand for example that people in India will not be easily converted to Catholicism because their tradition is not the same (Jewish, and Greek). The reason why tradition is a heavily evolved thing in the Bible is because even if you speak the same language, the culture is different so without proper tradition you might as well be speaking a foreign language.[/quote]

How is it logical? It is a contradictory, historically inaccurate, badly translated and badly transcribed collection of a politically motivated selection of some of the documents that were written down to capture an oral tradition.

322

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
When you refer to the Catholic Church do you refer to what the Pope and Rome says or what the majority of people who identify themselves as Catholic say and believe? The two are very, very different things.

When we refer to the Church we mean everyone in communion with the Vatican (to put it simply).[/quote]

When you say in communion with the Vatican do you mean agreeing with the Vatican’s opinion?

323

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
But is’nt the Bible “gods word”? it should be full of facts?

Yes. No. Why would God have to present facts that are easily attainable? There are facts in the Bible, but it isn’t a history book. It’s a book to communicate the many facets of God. Study Archeology if you want to dig up dirt on ancient man and societies. The Bible may have some of that info, but it isn’t to provide that info. It uses the facts to tell truths about God. You also must consider the audiences these were written for, to get full understanding of what is being said. If your looking at it as a history book, your screwed. Your facts will be all kinds of fucked up.

Well if the bible was factually correct then I would be a beleiver, but I just cant trust a book that has so much wrong with it, no matter who it was written for.

It’s a book of truth, not a book of fact.

C.S. Lewis a person who tried to disprove the Bible as nothing more than a myth stated. “The Bible reads more like history than a Myth.” He later converted to Christianity and wrote the Chronicles of Narnia. A way to teach Children about the Bible. He wrote a lot of other books. He was a very smart man.

And in the Narnia books Aslan tells the Children that he exists in their world, they just know him by a different name. In this he was referring to the fact that many peoples on earth worship God in their own differing way.

I would like to know what name is he called here? Aslan was killed in the place of Edmond whose blood was called for because of his treachery, by the great magic. Aslan died and was risen from the dead. I dont know about you but there is no other person in religion that has done this.

Well you might try reading 1 kings 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:32-37 and 2 Kings 13:21 from your own religion.

You could look into Osiris and Baal from Egyptian religions.

Head over to Greece and learn about Asclepius, Achilles, Aristeas of Proconnesus and many others.

Check out Buddhism for the resurrection of Bodhidharma.

Jump the Atlantic and read about Quetzalcoatl.

Resurrection is an extremely common theme in religion as it relates to natural cycles. Every day has a birth and a death of the Sun which is then resurrected the following day. Every year we see plants die back and then become resurrected in the spring (why do you think Easter is celebrated in the Spring time?)

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that these people actually lived and are not myths, but did any of them die for all humanity so that they might live even in the afterlife?

Quetzalcoatl for starters and I hope you realise the irony of your comment about the characters I mention being possibly myths given the total lack of evidence for the real existence of Ch�??�??�?�¼y of Nazareth.

I did a little reading in Wiki and noticed it said he was a feathered serpent and not human. Am I reading it correct?

Was also supposed to be a human that was going to come again to free the people from their bondage.

I did read that, but I also read that this is possible the person that the Mormons are drawn to as Christ. I found that interesting.[/quote]

It’s fascinating, one thing I really want to do is learn more about the Mesoamerican religions.

324

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
When you refer to the Catholic Church do you refer to what the Pope and Rome says or what the majority of people who identify themselves as Catholic say and believe? The two are very, very different things.

When we refer to the Church we mean everyone in communion with the Vatican (to put it simply).

When you say in communion with the Vatican do you mean agreeing with the Vatican’s opinion?[/quote]

Opinions? No. They’re just opinions then. No Catholic is bound to them.

325

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy

Oh really?
What things have been proven wrong? And how specifically, do they prove there is no God. This I got to hear.

Loads of things from the bible have been proved wrong, like the universe being created in 7days and that we all came from Adam and Eve. How much more is needed?

Oh you mean the inconclusive research where at the end the scientist suppose that this or that might be true. Like I said the Bible is made from Divine tradition. You can’t prove anything to be true or not, is it me or does anyone else think that evidence thousands of years old might be a little difficult to rely on since it is likely tampered with?

And for the people that believe in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution, pick up the complete book and read the entire thing.

From what I know of Catholicism I thought that the Bible was the inspired word of God given to his people. I also think that the Bible can be prooven, but not all of it because things that are yet to come can not be prooven. I think that since the Catholic Monks that copied the manuscripts from thousands of years ago; a Catholic would believe that they had not been tampered with.

How can the Bible be proven? Huge chunks of the history in it were just made up and have no relation to actual known history.

Which huge chunks are you talking about? Many different scientists confer that the great flood happened. The combined kingdom of Israel was confirmed along with differnt battles of the Old Testament are confirmed by archaeology.

I will say that since Christianity / New Testament is not a historical reference other than the places that were visited by Paul and the Disciples and those places were existent at the time then I think there can be some validity and historical fact to the Bible. Again it is easy for me to say since I think the Bible is the infalible word or God, but there is proof. Watch the Naked Archaologist on TV and you will see what I am talking about.[/quote]

Well we could start with the whole Israelites being slaves in Egypt and being led to their freedom in the promised land. Never happened.

Incidentally, here is a nice comment from an author contemporary with the actual writing of the original biblical documents:

[i]
'‘Clearly the Christians have used … myths … in fabricating the story of Jesus’ birth’â?¦

It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction."

â?? Celsus (On The True Doctrine, c 178 AD)
[/i]

326

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
But is’nt the Bible “gods word”? it should be full of facts?

Yes. No. Why would God have to present facts that are easily attainable? There are facts in the Bible, but it isn’t a history book. It’s a book to communicate the many facets of God. Study Archeology if you want to dig up dirt on ancient man and societies. The Bible may have some of that info, but it isn’t to provide that info. It uses the facts to tell truths about God. You also must consider the audiences these were written for, to get full understanding of what is being said. If your looking at it as a history book, your screwed. Your facts will be all kinds of fucked up.

Well if the bible was factually correct then I would be a beleiver, but I just cant trust a book that has so much wrong with it, no matter who it was written for.

It’s a book of truth, not a book of fact.

C.S. Lewis a person who tried to disprove the Bible as nothing more than a myth stated. “The Bible reads more like history than a Myth.” He later converted to Christianity and wrote the Chronicles of Narnia. A way to teach Children about the Bible. He wrote a lot of other books. He was a very smart man.

And in the Narnia books Aslan tells the Children that he exists in their world, they just know him by a different name. In this he was referring to the fact that many peoples on earth worship God in their own differing way.

I would like to know what name is he called here? Aslan was killed in the place of Edmond whose blood was called for because of his treachery, by the great magic. Aslan died and was risen from the dead. I dont know about you but there is no other person in religion that has done this.

Well you might try reading 1 kings 17:17-24, 2 Kings 4:32-37 and 2 Kings 13:21 from your own religion.

You could look into Osiris and Baal from Egyptian religions.

Head over to Greece and learn about Asclepius, Achilles, Aristeas of Proconnesus and many others.

Check out Buddhism for the resurrection of Bodhidharma.

Jump the Atlantic and read about Quetzalcoatl.

Resurrection is an extremely common theme in religion as it relates to natural cycles. Every day has a birth and a death of the Sun which is then resurrected the following day. Every year we see plants die back and then become resurrected in the spring (why do you think Easter is celebrated in the Spring time?)

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that these people actually lived and are not myths, but did any of them die for all humanity so that they might live even in the afterlife?

Quetzalcoatl for starters and I hope you realise the irony of your comment about the characters I mention being possibly myths given the total lack of evidence for the real existence of Ch�??�??�??�?�¼y of Nazareth.

I did a little reading in Wiki and noticed it said he was a feathered serpent and not human. Am I reading it correct?

Was also supposed to be a human that was going to come again to free the people from their bondage.

I did read that, but I also read that this is possible the person that the Mormons are drawn to as Christ. I found that interesting.

It’s fascinating, one thing I really want to do is learn more about the Mesoamerican religions.[/quote]

You are the one who brought this up.

327

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy

Oh really?
What things have been proven wrong? And how specifically, do they prove there is no God. This I got to hear.

Loads of things from the bible have been proved wrong, like the universe being created in 7days and that we all came from Adam and Eve. How much more is needed?

Oh you mean the inconclusive research where at the end the scientist suppose that this or that might be true. Like I said the Bible is made from Divine tradition. You can’t prove anything to be true or not, is it me or does anyone else think that evidence thousands of years old might be a little difficult to rely on since it is likely tampered with?

And for the people that believe in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution, pick up the complete book and read the entire thing.

From what I know of Catholicism I thought that the Bible was the inspired word of God given to his people. I also think that the Bible can be prooven, but not all of it because things that are yet to come can not be prooven. I think that since the Catholic Monks that copied the manuscripts from thousands of years ago; a Catholic would believe that they had not been tampered with.

How can the Bible be proven? Huge chunks of the history in it were just made up and have no relation to actual known history.

Which huge chunks are you talking about? Many different scientists confer that the great flood happened. The combined kingdom of Israel was confirmed along with differnt battles of the Old Testament are confirmed by archaeology.

I will say that since Christianity / New Testament is not a historical reference other than the places that were visited by Paul and the Disciples and those places were existent at the time then I think there can be some validity and historical fact to the Bible. Again it is easy for me to say since I think the Bible is the infalible word or God, but there is proof. Watch the Naked Archaologist on TV and you will see what I am talking about.

Well we could start with the whole Israelites being slaves in Egypt and being led to their freedom in the promised land. Never happened.

Incidentally, here is a nice comment from an author contemporary with the actual writing of the original biblical documents:

[i]
'‘Clearly the Christians have used … myths … in fabricating the story of Jesus’ birth’â?¦

It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction."

â?? Celsus (On The True Doctrine, c 178 AD)
[/i]
[/quote]

Even yet this religion, of fishermen, poor people, and uneducated went on to become the most populous religion of all time. The same people that you say were selling this religion never got anything out of it other than death even death on a cross. They died because they would not renounce the one that they believed was God. The same people saw their leader die on a cross and that they said rose from the grave and appeared to them. Jesus talked with them. Why would they fabricate a story like this. Their is no logical reason why they would do this. These disciples were true martyrs. They had more to loose than to gain. All they were to gain was eternity with God, if what they believed was true.

328

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Funnily enough there are Hindu’s that would argue that their religion is monotheistic and the different God’s are actually just different aspects of Shiva.

I have heard this, but when I went to India it is hard to understand that they are all part of the same Shiva. They worship the one parts that fits them. If you do not want the entire god, then what is the point?[/quote]

You don’t understand your own religion let alone Hinduism. The term was a convenient blanket description used by colonial British to describe all the tribal religions they found in India.

329

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Even yet this religion, of fishermen, poor people, and uneducated went on to become the most populous religion of all time. The same people that you say were selling this religion never got anything out of it other than death even death on a cross. They died because they would not renounce the one that they believed was God.

The same people saw their leader die on a cross and that they said rose from the grave and appeared to them. Jesus talked with them. Why would they fabricate a story like this. Their is no logical reason why they would do this. These disciples were true martyrs. They had more to loose than to gain. All they were to gain was eternity with God, if what they believed was true.[/quote]

The power of cult worship. And theirs reasons for lying were simple: power.

330

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

It’s fascinating, one thing I really want to do is learn more about the Mesoamerican religions.

You are the one who brought this up.[/quote]

I know, just saying I know a lot less about it than other religions and given that I am living out here it is good to be able to find out more.

331

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy

Oh really?
What things have been proven wrong? And how specifically, do they prove there is no God. This I got to hear.

Loads of things from the bible have been proved wrong, like the universe being created in 7days and that we all came from Adam and Eve. How much more is needed?

Oh you mean the inconclusive research where at the end the scientist suppose that this or that might be true. Like I said the Bible is made from Divine tradition. You can’t prove anything to be true or not, is it me or does anyone else think that evidence thousands of years old might be a little difficult to rely on since it is likely tampered with?

And for the people that believe in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution, pick up the complete book and read the entire thing.

From what I know of Catholicism I thought that the Bible was the inspired word of God given to his people. I also think that the Bible can be prooven, but not all of it because things that are yet to come can not be prooven. I think that since the Catholic Monks that copied the manuscripts from thousands of years ago; a Catholic would believe that they had not been tampered with.

Well this is what I have studied (secondary). The Bible is written divinely. However, it comes from tradition (how the events are seen, how they are thought of, etc.), people did not write in the note books as things occurred, it was carried by word of mouth. So, you know how word of mouth works when transferring a direct message.

As well once it was written down, people know history is written by the victor. All that aside, things are considered fairly concrete if it lasts for 4-5 generations. Well, it has been more than 4-5 generations since the Bible was completed and the last canon, and the Bible is 1) logical and 2) long lasting.

The thing people have trouble with is the tradition part, you have to understand for example that people in India will not be easily converted to Catholicism because their tradition is not the same (Jewish, and Greek). The reason why tradition is a heavily evolved thing in the Bible is because even if you speak the same language, the culture is different so without proper tradition you might as well be speaking a foreign language.

How is it logical? It is a contradictory, historically inaccurate, badly translated and badly transcribed collection of a politically motivated selection of some of the documents that were written down to capture an oral tradition.[/quote]

Source from the Bible showing contradiction.

332

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy

Oh really?
What things have been proven wrong? And how specifically, do they prove there is no God. This I got to hear.

Loads of things from the bible have been proved wrong, like the universe being created in 7days and that we all came from Adam and Eve. How much more is needed?

Oh you mean the inconclusive research where at the end the scientist suppose that this or that might be true. Like I said the Bible is made from Divine tradition. You can’t prove anything to be true or not, is it me or does anyone else think that evidence thousands of years old might be a little difficult to rely on since it is likely tampered with?

And for the people that believe in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution, pick up the complete book and read the entire thing.

From what I know of Catholicism I thought that the Bible was the inspired word of God given to his people. I also think that the Bible can be prooven, but not all of it because things that are yet to come can not be prooven. I think that since the Catholic Monks that copied the manuscripts from thousands of years ago; a Catholic would believe that they had not been tampered with.

Well this is what I have studied (secondary). The Bible is written divinely. However, it comes from tradition (how the events are seen, how they are thought of, etc.), people did not write in the note books as things occurred, it was carried by word of mouth. So, you know how word of mouth works when transferring a direct message.

As well once it was written down, people know history is written by the victor. All that aside, things are considered fairly concrete if it lasts for 4-5 generations. Well, it has been more than 4-5 generations since the Bible was completed and the last canon, and the Bible is 1) logical and 2) long lasting.

The thing people have trouble with is the tradition part, you have to understand for example that people in India will not be easily converted to Catholicism because their tradition is not the same (Jewish, and Greek). The reason why tradition is a heavily evolved thing in the Bible is because even if you speak the same language, the culture is different so without proper tradition you might as well be speaking a foreign language.

How is it logical? It is a contradictory, historically inaccurate, badly translated and badly transcribed collection of a politically motivated selection of some of the documents that were written down to capture an oral tradition.

Source from the Bible showing contradiction.[/quote]

God is seen and heard/God is invisible and cannot be heard; God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things/God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things; God is the author of evil/God is not the author of evil; Adultery forbidden/Adultery allowed; The father of Joseph, Mary’s husband was Jacob/The father of Mary’s husband was Heli; The infant Christ was taken into Egypt/The infant Jesus was not taken into Egypt;

John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee/John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee; Jesus was crucified at the third hour/Jesus was crucified at the sixth hour; Christ is equal with God/Christ is not equal with God; It is impossible to fall from grace/It is possible to fall form grace; and so forth.

Burr’s ‘Self Contradictions of the Bible’ (1860) is where most of this is from.

I predict a similar response as Martin Luther when he closed the door on reason with the following: “The Holy Spirit has an eye only to substance and is not bound by words”.

The Holy Spirit, it seems, is happy to play tennis without a net.

333

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
pat wrote:
Rza UK wrote:
I’m still shocked by the amount of people who believe in any type of god, I mean how many things need to be proved wrong to stop people believing this tripe? Its crazy

Oh really?
What things have been proven wrong? And how specifically, do they prove there is no God. This I got to hear.

Loads of things from the bible have been proved wrong, like the universe being created in 7days and that we all came from Adam and Eve. How much more is needed?

Oh you mean the inconclusive research where at the end the scientist suppose that this or that might be true. Like I said the Bible is made from Divine tradition. You can’t prove anything to be true or not, is it me or does anyone else think that evidence thousands of years old might be a little difficult to rely on since it is likely tampered with?

And for the people that believe in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution, pick up the complete book and read the entire thing.

From what I know of Catholicism I thought that the Bible was the inspired word of God given to his people. I also think that the Bible can be prooven, but not all of it because things that are yet to come can not be prooven. I think that since the Catholic Monks that copied the manuscripts from thousands of years ago; a Catholic would believe that they had not been tampered with.

Well this is what I have studied (secondary). The Bible is written divinely. However, it comes from tradition (how the events are seen, how they are thought of, etc.), people did not write in the note books as things occurred, it was carried by word of mouth. So, you know how word of mouth works when transferring a direct message.

As well once it was written down, people know history is written by the victor. All that aside, things are considered fairly concrete if it lasts for 4-5 generations. Well, it has been more than 4-5 generations since the Bible was completed and the last canon, and the Bible is 1) logical and 2) long lasting.

The thing people have trouble with is the tradition part, you have to understand for example that people in India will not be easily converted to Catholicism because their tradition is not the same (Jewish, and Greek). The reason why tradition is a heavily evolved thing in the Bible is because even if you speak the same language, the culture is different so without proper tradition you might as well be speaking a foreign language.

How is it logical? It is a contradictory, historically inaccurate, badly translated and badly transcribed collection of a politically motivated selection of some of the documents that were written down to capture an oral tradition.

Source from the Bible showing contradiction.

God is seen and heard/God is invisible and cannot be heard; God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things/God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things; God is the author of evil/God is not the author of evil; Adultery forbidden/Adultery allowed; The father of Joseph, Mary’s husband was Jacob/The father of Mary’s husband was Heli; The infant Christ was taken into Egypt/The infant Jesus was not taken into Egypt;

John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee/John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee; Jesus was crucified at the third hour/Jesus was crucified at the sixth hour; Christ is equal with God/Christ is not equal with God; It is impossible to fall from grace/It is possible to fall form grace; and so forth.

Burr’s ‘Self Contradictions of the Bible’ (1860) is where most of this is from.

I predict a similar response as Martin Luther when he closed the door on reason with the following: “The Holy Spirit has an eye only to substance and is not bound by words”.

The Holy Spirit, it seems, is happy to play tennis without a net.[/quote]

I said from the Bible did I not? Secondary sources are worth shit. Martin Luther? I am Catholic, the man is a complete nut to me.

334

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Makavali wrote:
[i]God is seen and heard/God is invisible and cannot be heard; God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things/God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things; God is the author of evil/God is not the author of evil; Adultery forbidden/Adultery allowed;

The father of Joseph, Mary’s husband was Jacob/The father of Mary’s husband was Heli; The infant Christ was taken into Egypt/The infant Jesus was not taken into Egypt; John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee/John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee; Jesus was crucified at the third hour/Jesus was crucified at the sixth hour; Christ is equal with God/Christ is not equal with God; It is impossible to fall from grace/It is possible to fall form grace; and so forth.[/i]

Burr’s ‘Self Contradictions of the Bible’ (1860) is where most of this is from.

I predict a similar response as Martin Luther when he closed the door on reason with the following: “The Holy Spirit has an eye only to substance and is not bound by words”.

The Holy Spirit, it seems, is happy to play tennis without a net.

I said from the Bible did I not? Secondary sources are worth shit. Martin Luther? I am Catholic, the man is a complete nut to me.[/quote]

Italicized for you.

335

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Makavali wrote:
[i]God is seen and heard/God is invisible and cannot be heard; God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things/God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things; God is the author of evil/God is not the author of evil; Adultery forbidden/Adultery allowed;

The father of Joseph, Mary’s husband was Jacob/The father of Mary’s husband was Heli; The infant Christ was taken into Egypt/The infant Jesus was not taken into Egypt; John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee/John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee; Jesus was crucified at the third hour/Jesus was crucified at the sixth hour; Christ is equal with God/Christ is not equal with God; It is impossible to fall from grace/It is possible to fall form grace; and so forth.[/i]

Burr’s ‘Self Contradictions of the Bible’ (1860) is where most of this is from.

I predict a similar response as Martin Luther when he closed the door on reason with the following: “The Holy Spirit has an eye only to substance and is not bound by words”.

The Holy Spirit, it seems, is happy to play tennis without a net.

I said from the Bible did I not? Secondary sources are worth shit. Martin Luther? I am Catholic, the man is a complete nut to me.

Italicized for you.[/quote]

Okay, you just said you got that from Burr’s “Self Contradiction of the Bible.” So, I apologize if I do not just take someone’s biased writing. Show me the scripture, with the book, the chapter, and the verse. I asked for examples from the Bible, and I apologize again if I did not state it clearly, I did not want someone author saying this or that, I wanted to see in my own bible how it contradicts another verse in the Bible.

In 1860 most people did not have Bibles, so it would be very easy for an author to write this and say, see there you go.

336

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Okay, you just said you got that from Burr’s “Self Contradiction of the Bible.” So, I apologize if I do not just take someone’s biased writing. Show me the scripture, with the book, the chapter, and the verse. I asked for examples from the Bible, and I apologize again if I did not state it clearly, I did not want someone author saying this or that, I wanted to see in my own bible how it contradicts another verse in the Bible.

In 1860 most people did not have Bibles, so it would be very easy for an author to write this and say, see there you go.[/quote]

God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19

Arpachshad’s son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
Arpachshad’s grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36

Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19

Terah’s lifespan.
According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born) plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran - as stated in Gen 12:4). He did not live beyond this as Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran. So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32 states he lived 205 years.

God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8
God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13

Jacob’s offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5
Jacob’s offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14

Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah’s field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16

The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6

God’s plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9
God’s plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8

The Hebrews’ journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies), Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42
The Hebrews’ journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah (where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7

God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
God commands killing - Ex 32:27

Solomon’s reign.
Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews left Egypt to David beginning his reign as 40 (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years. According to 1 Chron 29:27, David reigned 40 years, so Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years (of David’s reign) = 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1 states Solomon’s 4th year of rule (when he began the Temple building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the Hebrews left. Therefore there is a contradiction of (570 - 476) 94 years.

Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1 Sam 28:6
Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1 Chron 10:13,14

Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13
Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15

David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50
Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19

Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron 3:11,12
Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham - Matt 1:8,9

Asa removes the high places - 2 Chron 14:2
Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14

Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Nacon - 2 Samuel 6:6
Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Chidon - 1 Chron 13:9

David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4
David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4

David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18
David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18

Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1

Joab’s numbering of the army. 1,100,00 soldiers in Israel; 470,000 soldiers in Judah - 1 Chron 21:5
Joab’s numbering of the army. 800,000 soldiers in Israel; 500,000 in Judah - 2 Sam 24:9

David buys the land for the altar from Ornan for 600 shekels of gold - 1 Chron 21:24-25
David buys the land for the altar from Araunah for 50 shekels - 2 Sam 24:24

Solomon had 4,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 2 Chron 9:25
Solomon had 40,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 1 Kings 4:26

The Temple pillars were 18 cubits - 1 Kings 7:15
The Temple pillars were 35 cubits - 2 Chron 3:15

The molten sea held 2000 baths - 1 Kings 7:23,26
The molten sea held over 3000 baths - 2 Chron 4:2,5

The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7
The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19

The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15
The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18

How the righteous suffer like the wicked - Ecc 9:2, Isaiah 57:1
How the righteous flourish - Psalm 92:12-13

No ills befall the righteous - Proverbs 12:21
How the righteous suffer - Job 12:4,6, Hebrews 11:35-37

The wicked will die prematurely and will suffer - Psalm 55:23, Proverbs 10:27, Job 18:5,11,18,19
The wicked lifespan is long and they enjoy life - Psalm 73:3-5,12, Job 21:7-9

Man is to be holy - Leviticus 11:44, 19:2, 20:7
Only God is holy - Revelation 15:4

Drinking alcohol is acceptable - Deuteronomy 14:26, John 2:7-11, 1 Timothy 5:23
Drinking alcohol is not acceptable - Proverbs 20:1, 23:31-34, Hosea 4:11

Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began his reign - 2 Chron 36:9
Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began his reign - 2 Kings 24:8

The captain takes 5 men of the king’s council - 2 Kings 25:19
The captain takes 7 men of the king’s council - Jeremiah 52:25

Baasha dies and his son Ela begins his reign over Israel - this was in the 26th year of king Asa of Judah - 1 Kings 16:6,8
In the 36th year of Asa’s reign, Baasha attacks Judah - 2 Chron 16:1
NB. 2 Chron has Baasha still fighting 10 years after 1 Kings says he died!

The infancy narratives.
According to Luke 2:21-39, Jesus is taken to the Jerusalem Temple eight days after he is born; the family then go up to Nazareth. In Matt 2:14-23, after being born the family flee in Egypt and stay there until Herod dies; even on returning, they avoid Judea and go up to Nazareth.

Jesus began ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark 1:14,15,17
Jesus’s began ministry whilst John was free and before imprisoned - John 1:28-29, 3:25-30

Jesus baptised - John 3:22
Jesus did not baptise - John 4:2

The exorcism of Legion - being 2 men - Matt 8:28
The exorcism of Legion - being 1 man - Mark 5:1,2

The healing on leaving Jericho was 1 blind man - Mark 10:46,47
The healing on leaving Jericho was 2 blind men - Matt 20:29,30

No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11

Respect for parents taught - Exodus 20:12, Leviticus 19:3, Deuteronomy 5:16, Ephesians 6:1-2
Disrespect and rejection of parents taught - Matt 8:21- 22, 10:37, 19:29, 23:9, Luke 12:51,53, 14:26

People choose not to come to Jesus - John 5:40
People can only come to Jesus if God wills it - John 6:44

Jesus judges - John 5:22,27, 9:39, 2 Corinthians 5:10
Jesus does not judge - John 8:15, 12:47

Christians to hate their brothers - - Luke 14:26
Whoever hates their brother cannot have eternal life - 1 John 3:15

Jesus refuses to give signs - Matt 12:38,39, Mark 8:12, Luke 11:29
Jesus did give signs - John 3:2, 20:30, Acts 2:22

Man judged/saved by faith - John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 20:31, Acts 2:21, 16:30,31, Rom 1:17, 5:1,9,11,18, 10:9, Gal 2:16, Phil 3:9, Eph 2:8,9
Man judged/saved by works and lifestyle - Psalm 62:12, Proverbs 24:12, Matt 7:21, 16:27, 19:16,17, 25:31- 46, Luke 14;13-14, John 5:29, Acts 10:35, Rom 2:6,7,9,10, 1 Cor 3:8

One of the disciples was lost - John 17:12
None of the disciple were lost - John 18:9

Jesus refers to David eating the consecrated bread in the time of Abithar - Mark 2:25,26
In fact David ate the consecrated bread in the time of Ahimelech - 1 Sam 21:1-6

Disciples sent out not to wear sandals - Matt 10:9,10
Disciples sent out to wear sandals - Mark 6:8,9

No man can retain the spirit after death - Eccles 8:8
Peter restores spirit of Tabitha after death - Acts 9:37,40

Believers not to worry about providing for family - Luke 14:26,33, 18:29,30
Believers must provide for family - 1 Timothy 5:8

Jesus did not bear witness to himself - John 5:31
Jesus did bear witness to himself - John 8:14,18

The law/commandments to remain for ever - Matt 5:17-19, Luke 16:17
The law has ended - Romans 7:4, Eph 2:15, Col 2:14

Simon and Andrew’s home was in Capernaum - Mark 1:21,29
Simon and Andrew’s home was in the same place as Philip’s - Bethsaida - John 1:44

God has given all things into Jesus’ hands - John 3:35
God has not given all things into Jesus’ hands - Matt 20:23, John 5:19

Everyone sins - 2 Chronicles 6:36, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Rom 3:10,12,23
Believers do not sin - 1 John 3:6,9, 5:18

The anointing and entry into Jerusalem.
Matt and Mark detail how Jesus rode into Jerusalem in Matt 20:1-13, Mark 11:1-11. It was after this that he was anointed at Bethany - Matt 26:6-16, Mark 14:3- 11. But in John he is anointed (12:1-8) and it is after this that he rides into Jerusalem (12:12-15).

The Last Supper.
The Synoptics make it clear this was the Passover meal - Matt 26:19, Mark 14:16, Luke 22:13. However in John, the meal was held on the day before the Passover - 13:29, and states that even after the meal the Passover had still not begun - 18:28. Moreover, even after the trial, it was the Preparation day for the Passover - 19:31

Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38
Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72

Peter is warned he will deny Jesus after the last supper and having left the upper room - Matt 26:20-34, Mark 14:17-30
Peter is warned he will deny Jesus during the last supper before leaving the upper room - Luke 22:33-39, John 13:37-38/ 18:1

Jesus’ trial before the sanhedrin was at night and in morning he was taken to Pilate - Matt 26:57-68, 27:1-2
Jesus’ trial before the sanhedrin and being taken to Pilate was in the morning - Luke 22:66-71, 23:1

Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus’ cross - Matt 27:32
Jesus carries his cross - John 19:17,18

Jesus was physically descended from David - Romans 1:1- 3.
The genealogies in Matt 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38 both attempt to link Jesus with Joseph to give Jesus a place in the Davidic line (which was necessary for messiahship). However, if virgin born, Joseph would have had nothing to do with the conception and any physical/human descent would be through Mary: Jesus’ only contact with humanity if virgin born. However, Luke 1:36 says Mary was related to Elizabeth who was of the Aaronic line (Luke 1:5), not the Davidic line. Therefore, if virgin born, Jesus did not have Davidic descent (a prerequisite for messiah- ship).

Both robbers revile Jesus - Matt 27:44
Only one robber reviles Jesus and the other believes - Luke 23:41-43

Jesus tells the believing robber he will be with him in paradise that day - Luke 23:43
Jesus was in the grave following his death and did not ascend to heaven - Acts 2:24,31, John 20:17

God forsakes Jesus - Mark 15:34
Jesus is inseparable from God - John 10:30, 14:10, 16:32

The confirmation Jesus is dead.
In Mark 15:43-45, Joseph of Arimathea asks Pilate for Jesus’ body, and Pilate is unaware of whether he is dead; only after sending a centurion and receiving this confirmation does he allow Joseph to take the body. However in John 19:31-33,38, Pilate actually authorises the leg-breaking to ensure they have all died and then authorises Joseph to remove the body. NB. Mark 15:42 states it was evening, ie. the sabbath had already begun (beginning at sundown) when Joseph asks for the body. However, burial was not allowed on the sabbath, showing the fictitiousness of the story.

The Resurrection of Jesus
Who went to the tomb?
Matt - 2 Marys
Mark - 2 Marys and Salome
Luke - at least 5 women
John - Mary Magdalene
What was seen?
Matt - Earthquake with angel sitting outside on the recently-moved stone
Mark - Stone already moved and a young man sitting inside
Luke - Stone already moved with two men standing inside
John - Stone moved. No one seen on 1st visit, but two angels sitting inside after two earlier visits.
When did the woman/women leave to go to the tomb?
Matt - Towards dawn
Mark - Very early
Luke - At early dawn
John - Still dark (NB. John states it was still dark when Mary arrived at the tomb).
What did man/men/angel/angels say?
Matt - Jesus was risen and disciples to go to Galilee
Mark - As Matt
Luke - Jesus had risen
John - Asks why Mary is crying.
What do the women/woman do next?
Matt - They run away but meet Jesus who repeats angel’s instruction
Mark - They flee and say nothing to anyone. This obviously contradicts the other three in which the women do go and tell the disciples (original Mark ended at 16:7)
Luke - They go and tell disciples
John - Mary meets Jesus and they talk.
What is first conversation with the risen Jesus?
Matt - Women on way from tomb
Luke - The two disciples on road to Emmaus
John - Mary Magdalene.
What was the time between the resurrection and the ascension?
Matt - At least the time to reach Galilee
Luke - Clearly one day only (see 24:13,33,36,50 - it is made very clear that Jesus rose, made all his appearances and ascended back to heaven on the same day)
John - At least a week accepting John 20 as the original end to the Gospel, but with the John 21 appendix the period was even longer as this has a Galilean appearance
Acts - 40 days.

An attempt to reconcile John’s visit of just Mary Magdalene whilst still dark with the Synoptics where there are several women and it is daytime, is by saying John’s was an earlier one, i.e. the one in the Synoptics was a second one. However this cannot be so as John has Mary Magdalene seeing the empty tomb (20:1) and in the Synoptics when the women go to the tomb they ask about who would roll the stone away (Mark 16:3). Mary Magdalene was with them (Mark 16:1) and if she had already been to the tomb, she would have seen the stone moved away and the question would be irrelevant.
Furthermore, Luke makes any appearance at, or journey to Galilee absolutely impossible as it has everything happening in the area of Jerusalem with the disciples being told to stay there until Pentecost, and the conclusion being Jesus’ ascension from nearby Bethany. This is made clear - in Luke the first appearance is to the two travelling to Emmaus (10 miles West of Jerusalem) and 24:13 states this was “that very day”; the two then go “that same hour” to the eleven in Jerusalem (24:33); Jesus then appears whilst they are still explaning what they had seen (24:36). Jesus then tells them to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost (24:49).
As Luke 24:51 has the ascension on the same day as the resurrection this prevents any Galilean appearances by Jesus to the eleven as in Matt and John.
Luke’s account makes nonsense of Matt having Jesus tell the women to instruct the disciples to go up to Galilee (Matt 28:10) if he was going to see them himself later that day (as in Luke and John), and furthermore see them in Jerusalem. Also, Luke makes it clear that the eleven were told to stay in Jerusalem from the day of the resurrection to Pentecost, but Matt has them travelling up to Galilee (28:16) as does John (21:1ff). Important to note is Mark 16:7, ie. that the women ‘said nothing to anyone’ - all three Gospels contradict this by saying that they told the disciples.
Luke also has Jesus appearing to “the eleven” on the same day as the resurrection (24:33-36), but John states Thomas was missing on this appearance and it was a week later that Jesus appeared to all eleven - with Thomas then being present (20:24,26).

Note: 1 Cor 15:3-8 lists the resurrection appearances and contradicts the above.

The chronology of Paul’s life.
Acts
(1)Paul converted on the way to Damascus (9:1-8).
(2)He goes to Ananias in Damascus and stays there ‘several days’ (9:20).
(3)After ‘some time’*, Paul goes to Jerusalem (9:23,26) and meets the apostles there (9:27).
(4)Paul preaches in Jerusalem, but due to threats to kill him, he is sent to Tarsus (9:30).
(5)Relief to Jerusalem and Judea taken by Paul & Barnabas (2nd visit) (11:30)
(6)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd time) (12:25)
(7)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd or 4th time) (15:1ff).

Galatians.
(1)Paul is converted (1:16).
(2)He does not go to Jerusalem, but to Arabia and then Damascus (1:17)
(3)After 3 years, Paul goes to Jerusalem, meeting only Cephas and James there (1:18-19) staying only 15 days.
(4)He then goes to the regions of Syria and Cilicia (1:21).
(5)14 years later, Paul goes to Jerusalem with Barnabas and Titus (2:1).
(6)Paul confronts Cephas at Antioch (2:11).
(7)No further information.
The ‘some time’ in Acts 9:19 is not clear as to how long this was; different translations render this ‘some time passed’ (Jerusalem), ‘after a number of days’ (Moffatt); the literal Greek is “‘many’ with the view of being sufficient”; however it is rendered, it is difficult to reconcile this with the three years of Gal 1:18.
*It is not clear whether 12:25 is a return to Jerusalem, or a return to Antioch from Jerusalem; if the former, and the Acts 15 visit is the Gal 2:1-10 one, then in Acts it would be the fourth visit, whilst Paul states it was only the second.
Paul’s method of counting in Gal. is not absolutely clear, ie. whether his 14 years in Gal 2:1 is 14 years after his starting point in Gal (ie. his conversion) or 14 years after the first Jerusalem visit 3 years after his conversion which he had mentioned immediately beforehand (ie. a total of 17 years after his conversion).
Numerous others problems arise when trying to reconcile the two accounts, e.g. Acts has Paul in Jerusalem and Judea in his early life (21:17 then 22:3) and as a persecutor of the church there (7:58, 9:1-2,13,21, 26:10) which makes Paul’s comment that (Gal 1:22) he was not known by sight by the churches in Judea even after his time in Jerusalem, Syria and Cilicia (1:17- 21) appear impossible. Furthermore when Paul has a dispute with Peter at Antioch about Gentile fellowship in Gal 2, why does he not remind him of what was agreed at the Acts 15 conference on this very subject ?

Abraham was justified by faith - Rom 4:1-5
Abraham was justified by works - James 2:22-24

Man does not die for his ancestors’ sin - Deut 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, Ezek 18:20
Man does die for his ancestors’ sin - Ex 20:5, 34:6-7, 2 Sam 12:13-18, Isa 14:21, Rom 5:12,19, 1 Cor 15:22

Elijah and Moses appear many centuries after they died - Mark 9:2-4
Only God is immortal - 1 Tim 6:15-16

Jesus to be buried for three days and nights - Matt 12:40
Jesus buried for one day and two nights - Mark 15:42,43, John 20:1 (These texts show the burial did not take place until Friday night and the tomb was empty before Sunday morning). Jesus was therefore not in the tomb for “three days and three nights” - whether present-day or Jewish time-reckoning is used.

Jesus was the first person to rise from the dead - Acts 26:23, Rev 1:5
Jesus was not the first person to rise from the dead - 2 Kings 4:32,35, Luke 7:12-15, Matt 9:18,25, 11:5, 27:52, John 11:44

The Holy Spirit given on Easter Sunday - John 20:19,22
The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost - Acts 2:1-4

Jesus warns disciples he is to leave them - John 16:5,7,28
Jesus assures disciples he will always be with them - Matt 28:20

The Holy Spirit not given until Jesus’ death - John 7:39
The Holy Spirit given before Jesus’ birth - Luke 1:41,67

Judas dies by hanging himself - Matt 27:5-7
Judas dies by swelling up - Acts 1:18

Women buy anointing spices for Jesus after the sabbath - Mark 16:1
Women buy anointing spices for Jesus before the sabbath - Luke 23:56

Paul’s vision.
Acts 9:7 states the men with Paul STOOD speechless, HEARING the voice but NOT SEEING anyone.
Acts 22:9 states they did NOT HEAR the voice.
Acts 26:14 states they all FELL to the ground and DID HEAR the voice.

God is impartial towards people - Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11, Gal 2:8, Eph 6:9
God is partial towards people - Rom 8:29-30, 9:11-13, Matt 10:5-6, 15:22-25, Luke 1:30

Those without the law, will perish without it - Rom 2:12
Where there is no law, there can be no transgression - Rom 4:15

Salvation only available to a few who have been chosen - Matt 7:14, 22:14, Luke 12:32, 13:24, John 6:37,65, 15:16,19, Rom 8:29, 9:11-23, Eph 1:4,
Salvation available to those who want it - Matt 7:7,8, 11:28, John 3:16, 5:40, 7:37, Acts 2:21, Rev 3:20
NB. Prov 16:4 states God actually made the unsaved for ‘the day of trouble’ (ie. damnation). In contrast to texts that state Jesus died for the elect/a small number, there are others that confirm, or at least suggest everyone will be saved by Christ - John 1:29, 4:42, 1 Cor 15:29, Heb 2:9, 1 John 4:14.

Satan is free to act as he pleases - Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zech 3;1, Matt 4:1, 1 Pet 5:8
The angels who rebelled against God are chained up - Jude 6

James and John ask Jesus for special places in the kingdom - Mark 10:35-37
It is the mother of James and John who asks Jesus for special places for them - Matt 20:21-22

No one born of God sins - 1 John 3:9
Everyone sins - Rom 3:23, 1 John 1:8

No one is righteous - Rom 3:10
There are righteous - James 5:16

The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable - Matt 12:32, Mark 3:29
God forgives all sins - 1 John 1:7

Love your enemies - Matt 5:44
Refuse to greet your enemies - 2 John 10: enemies are cursed by Paul - Gal 1:9: Paul asks that his enemies mutilate themselves - Gal 5:12

Those who go into the grave will never arise - Job 7:7,9, 14:10,12
Those who go into the grave will arise - John 5:28-29, 11:24, 1 Cor 15:12-18,20-23,52, Rev 20:4

The dead are unconscious - Job 14:12, Ecc 9:5, Dan 12:2
The dead are conscious - Mark 9:4, Luke 16:22-23, Rev 6:9-10

The earth will exist for ever - Ecc 1:4
The earth will be destroyed - 2 Pet 3:10

No one has ever seen God - Ex 33:17,20, John 1:18, 1 Tim 6:15-16
People have seen God - Gen 32:30, Ex 24:9-10, 33:11,21- 23, Isa 6:5, Deut 5:24, Amos 9:1

God is not responsible for confusion - 1 Cor 14:33
God is responsible for confusion - Isa 45:7

All will swear to God - Isa 45:22-23
Jesus forbids swearing - Matt 5:34

God can do anything - Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37
God is limited in what he can do - Judges 1:19, Mark 6:5-6

God wants everyone to be saved - 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9
God does not want everyone to be saved - Prov 16:4, Mark 4:11-12, Rom 9:18, 2 Thess 2:11

The returnees from Babylonian exile in 537/536 BCE.
42,360 in Ezra 2:64, but 9,818 in Ezra 2:3-60 and 31,089 in Nehemiah 7:7-65.

God is not angry for long - Psa 30:5, 103:9, Micah 7:18
God is angry for a long time - Num 32:13, Rev 14:11, 20:10

God never lies and hates lying - Ex 23:1, Num 23:19, Prov 12:22, Titus 1:2
God himself lies - 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chron 18:22, 2 Thess 2:11

God does not repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Num 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29, Mal 3:6
God does repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Gen 6:6-7, Ex 32:14, 1 Sam 15:35, 2 Sam 24:16, 1 Chron 21:15, Jer 18:8,10, 26:3,13,19, 42:10, Ezek 24:14, Joel 2:13, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10

The earth has no foundation - Job 26:7
The earth does have foundations - 1 Sam 2:8, Psa 104:5

God feeds and cares for all life - Psa 145:15-16
God does not feed and care for all life - Deut 28:48, Isa 5:13, 8:21, 50:2

God is warlike - Ex 15:3, Psa 24:8, Rev 19:11,13
Man should be peaceful as God is - Matt 5:9, John 14:27, Rom 15:33, 2 Thess 3:16

Graven images not to be made - Ex 20:4
Graven images are to be made - Ex 25:18

The earth is God/Jesus’ - Psa 24:1, 1 Cor 10:26, Rev 1:5
The earth is the devil’s - John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4

God dwells in light - Psa 104:1,2, 1 Tim 6:15-16, 1 John 1:5
God dwells in darkness - 1 Kings 8:12, 2 Chron 6:1, Psa 18:11, Psa 97:1-2

Jesus is God - John 1:1, John 20:28
Jesus is inferior/subordinate to God - John 14:28, 1 Cor 11:3, 15:28

The Synoptics have Jesus clearing the Temple at the end of his ministry (Mark 11:15-17 & par) but John has this at the very beginning (2:13-16). Also, John has Jesus travelling back and forth between Galilee and Jerusalem but the synoptics have him starting in Galilee & making the one journey south to Jerusalem ending in his death.

God is gracious, loving, merciful, good, forgiving, and perfect - Ex 34:6, Deut 32:4, 2 Sam 22:31, Psa 86:5, 100:5, 106:1, 111:4,7, 136:1, 145:8-9, Lam 3:33, Joel 2:13, Hab 1:12-13, Mark 10:18, 1 John 4:8,16
God slaughters, is vengeful, does evil, defiles, destroys and creates woes - Ex 32:14, Num 31:1-18, Deut 2:30,34, 7:2,16, 20:10-20, 1 Sam 6:19, Job 42:11, Isa 45:7, Jer 18:5,8,11, 26:3,13,19, 42:10-11, Lam 3:38, Ezek 6:12-13, 20:25-26, Amos 3:6, Nahum 1:2, Jonah 3:10

God sees everything and is omnipresent - Psa 11:4, Prov 15:3, Job 34:21, Jer 16:17, 23:24, Heb 4:13
God does not see everything and is not omnipresent - Gen 3:9-10, 11:5, 18:20-21, Ex 3:8, 19:11, 18,20, Micah 1:3

God did not dwell in the house (Temple) Solomon built - Acts 7:48
God did dwell in the house (Temple) that Solomon built - 1 Kings 8:13

God is always near - Psa 46:1, 145:14, 18-19, James 4:8
God is not always near - 1 Sam 28:6, Psa 10:1, 22:1,2, Matt 27:46

God creates all life out of the waters - Gen 1:20-21
God creates all life out of the earth - Gen 2:19

The doers of the law will be justified - Rom 2:13
No one is justified by the law - Rom 3:20

Disciples will be persecuted and martyred - Luke 21:16, Acts 7:59-60, 8:1, Rev 6:9
Disciples will not be harmed - Luke 21:18

Christians to obey authorities - Rom 13;1, 1 Pet 2:13- 14
Christians to obey God rather than authorities - Acts 5:29

Disciples given power to cure all ills - Matt 10:1, Luke 9:1
Disciples could not cure all ills - Matt 17:18-20

Centurion goes to Jesus for his servant to be healed - Matt 8:5-13
Centurion sends elders to Jesus to ask for his servant to be healed - Luke 7:1-10

God’s word and law abides for ever - Matt 5:18, 1 Pet 1:25
God’s word and law has been cancelled - Eph 2:15, Col 2:14

Governors are God’s ministers for the good and protect the innocent - Rom 13:1,3, 1 Pet 2:13-14
The Governor Pontius Pilate has Jesus crucified - Mark 15:15, Luke 23:11,24,25, John 19:1,6

Christ was raised a spirit being - 1 Cor 15:44-45, 1 Pet 3:18
Christ was physically raised - Luke 24:39,42-43, John 20:26-27

The coming kingdom of God will be visible - Daniel 2:44
The coming kingdom of God will not be visible - Luke 17:20-21

God is spirit - John 4:24
God has feet - Psa 18:9, arms - Jer 27:5, wings - Psa 36:7, eyes - Deut 11:12, Psa 34:15, a mouth - Isa 1:20, Deut 8:3, ears - 2 Chron 6:40, a nose - Ex 15:8, a heart - Gen 6:6, legs - Gen 3:8

The Bible teaches forgiveness - Matt 6:14-15, Rom 12:17-19, Eph 4:32, Col 3:13
The Bible teaches punishment and vengeance - Gen 9:6, Ex 21:23-25,29, Lev 24;16,23

God is one - Deut 6:4
God is plural - Gen 1:26, 11:6,7, Isa 6:8

Gen 6:4 refers to a race called the Nephilim. Later in Gen 7:11-24 there is the account of the Flood in which “every living thing” was killed (7:23) except Noah and his family: however, in Num 13:33 the Nephilim still exist.

The families of Japheth, Ham and Shem all have their own languages - Gen 10:5,20,31
There is only one language over the whole earth - Gen 11:1

It is the Midianites who sell Joseph to Potiphar - Gen 37:36
it is the Ishmaelites who sell Joseph to Potiphar - Gen 39:1

The Levites’ service to be from age 30 to 50 - Num 3:3,23,30,35,39,43,47
The Levites’ service to be from age 25 to 50 - Num 8:23

Sisera killed whilst asleep - Jud 4:20-21
Sisera killed whilst standing and drinking milk - Jud 5:25-27

God’s attributes are unknowable - Job 11:7-9
God’s attributes are knowable - Rom 1:20

Beersheba given its name by Abraham - Gen 21:31-33
Beersheba given its name by Isaac - Gen 26:32-33

Saul killed by an Amalekite - 2 Sam 1:5-10
Saul killed by Philistines - 2 Sam 21:22

There were 3300 chief officers on Temple building - 1 Kings 5:16
There were 3600 chief officers on Temple building - 2 Chron 2:18

There were 550 who had charge of the people - 1 Kings 9:23
There were 250 who had charge of the people - 2 Chron 8:10

Jehoshaphat removed the high places - 2 Chron 17:1,6
Jehoshaphat did not remove the high places - 2 Chron 20:31,33

Zedekiah was Jehoiachin’s brother - 2 Chron 36:9-10
Zedekiah was Jehoiachin’s uncle - 2 Kings 24:17

The sundial to go back 10 degrees as a sign that God would heal Hezekiah’s boil - 2 Kings 20:7-11
The sundial to go back 10 degrees as a sign God would defend the city against the Assyrians -Isa 38:4-8

The rich cannot enter heaven; the kingdom of God is for the poor - Luke 6:20, Matt 19:24, James 5:1
God rewards by bestowing wealth and disciples can be rich - Job 42:10, Matt 27:57

Satan entered Judas at the last supper - John 13:27
Satan entered Judas before the last supper - Luke 22:1-3

Food offered to idols should be avoided - Acts 15:29
It is of no importance if food offered to idols is eaten - 1 Cor 8:1,4,7,8

It was those who accused Jesus and were responsible for his death who buried him - Acts 13:27-29
It was Joseph of Arimathea, a disciple, who buried Jesus - Matt 27:59-60

Christ is the only master - Matt 23:10
Employers are masters - Eph 6:5,9

There were six generations inclusive between Joram and Jotham - 1 Chron 3:11-12
There were three generations inclusive between Joram and Jotham - Matt 1:8-9

Jesus’ home was at Capernaum - Mark 1:9,24, 2:1
Jesus’ home was in Judea - John 4:43-45
NB. In John, Jesus leaves Jerusalem in Judea and goes to Galilee because “a prophet has no honor in his own country” - therefore Judea must have been his home country - contradicting Mark.

Believers will be deceived into leaving the faith - 1 Tim 4:1, Heb 6:4-6, Gal 3:1, Rev 2:5
God will protect believers from being led astray - Psa 31:23, 37:28,32,33, John 10:27-29

Jesus never changes - Heb 13:8
Jesus does change - he dwelt with the Father (John 17:5), was born an infant with human weaknesses (Luke 2:7,52), became separated from God (Matt 27:46), then died (Matt 27:50), was then in Hades (Acts 2:31), was then raised from the dead in a glorified body (1 Cor 15:45) and ascended into heaven where he mediates (1 John 2:1, 1 Tim 2:5)

Moses was inarticulate - Ex 4:10
Moses was articulate - Acts 7:22

Only God is to be called ‘father’ - Matt 23:9
Various people can be called ‘father’ - 1 Cor 10:1, Eph 6:1-4, 1 John 2:13-14, Matt 15:4

Jesus prayed to God to be saved from death, and he was heard - Heb 5:7
Jesus prayed to God to be saved from death and was not heard (ie. he was executed the next day) - Luke 22:41,42,44,47,54, 23:33

Prepare your defense if challenged for your faith - 1 Pet 3:15
Don’t bother beforehand about what is to be said if challenged for your faith - Mark 13:11

God instructs man to live on vegetarian diet - Gen 1:29-30
Any food can be eaten - Gen 9:3, Acts 10:12-13, Rom 14:2

Martyred believers cry out for vengeance - Rev 6:9-10
Believers should love/forgive their enemies - Matt 5:44, 6:15,18:32-35, Luke 6:27-28

In Luke 10:38-42, Mary and Martha’s home is between Samaria (mentioned in 9:57) and Jericho (mentioned in 18:35). It is after leaving Jericho (that was AFTER where they lived) that Jesus reaches Bethany (19:29). However, according to John (11:18-20, 12:1-3), their home was in Bethany.

It is wrong to judge others - Matt 7:1, Luke 6:37, Rom 2:1, 14:10
Others can be judged - Matt 23:13-33, John 8:44, Rom 1:27,29-32

At the feeding of the 5000, 200 denarii would have fed the crowd - Mark 6:37
At the feeding of the 5000, 200 denarii would not have fed the crowd - John 6:7

God tells Zedekiah he will be captured but die peacefully - Jer 34:2-5
Zedekiah is capture, has his eyes taken out and is imprisoned to the day he dies - Jer 52:10-11

Jesus refuses to disclose who he is, or allow others to do this - Matt 12:15-16, 16:16-17,20, Mark 3:11-12, 8:29-30, Luke 9:20-21
Jesus tells the Samaritans (John 4:25-26), the Jews (John 5:39, 8:42,58, 10:24-25,30), the crowds (John 6:40), and others (John 9:35-38), who he is

The Gospel not to be taken to the Samaritans - Matt 10:5-6
The Gospel taken to the Samaritans - John 4:4-41, Acts 8:5,14,15,25

Women are to be obedient and submissive to men - 1 Cor 11:3,7-9, 14:33-35, Eph 5:22-24, 1 Tim 2:11-15, Titus 2:4-5, 1 Pet 3:21
There are no sexes in Christ: both are “one” - Gal 3:28

Let others see your good works - Matt 5:16
Do not let others see your good works - Matt 6:1,4

Stephen says the Jews persecuted the prophets and killed those who foretold Christ’s coming - Acts 7:52.
Moses was a prophet who foretold Christ’s coming (e.g. Acts 7:37) but was not killed - Deut 34:5,8; David was also a prophet (Acts 2:25,30), but he also died naturally.

337

Wasting your breath, Mak. There are a few who NEED organized religion, prophet(s) and/or authority figure(s) in one/some/all aspect(s) of their lives, illusions notwithstanding: be it Jehovah, Allah, Pat Robertson, Bruce Lee or Thibaudeau.

That said, the church has come a long way and evolved significantly to match the times, if excommunication is all they’ve got…Islam does have a bit of catching up to do.

338

Anyone who wants to understand south-asian theology would probably do best watching the movie “What dreams may come” before proceeding.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
Funnily enough there are Hindu’s that would argue that their religion is monotheistic and the different God’s are actually just different aspects of Shiva.

I have heard this, but when I went to India it is hard to understand that they are all part of the same Shiva. They worship the one parts that fits them. If you do not want the entire god, then what is the point?

You don’t understand your own religion let alone Hinduism. The term was a convenient blanket description used by colonial British to describe all the tribal religions they found in India.[/quote]

339

Where did you get this because you did not do this research? Was this from Burr’s?

340

Let’s spice it up a bit in here. Is atheism a Darwinian dead end? Is it self-defeating?

“…What we can say with certainty is that Dawkins’ idea that religion brings nothing to man, or, indeed, harms him, is patently false, whether we see things from the perspective of how long faith has been around or what’s happening today to people without it. A quick look at the CIA Factbook proves that Dawkins is very wrong when he claims,“religion has no survival value for individual human beings, or for the benefit of their genes.” If, in the end, all evolution cares about is survival, it’s liberalism that must be considered the virus. Our ancestors who had religion survived while those of us without it might not…”

“…The patriarchal and god-fearing will inherit the earth, one way or another.”

Disclaimer: I can not be held responsible for the mad fray that is sure to follow.