I don’t mean are you capable of murder under those settings. I mean is it morally acceptable to do that.
Example. You are in surgery. Under anaesthesia. I walk in off the street extubate you knowing your going to asphyxiate. Or even simpler I just shoot you in the head. For some reason no ones stops me. Is that moral? Can I do that? Should I be allowed to do that?
Because your unconscious and it seems that was one of your criteria regarding why it is ok to have an abortion.
I suspect you know exactly what I meant. And honestly based on our interactions I also suspect you would agree the two examples I listed are not examples of instances where it is morally acceptable to kill someone.
Your use of language “expelling a clump of cells”. Calling a developing embryo, fetes, unborn child, a clump of cells, does not change the fact that uninterrupted the end result will be a human being.
I am disagreeing with you but tell me why I shouldn’t disagree with you.
I am in the exact place you are. Honestly, probably only a few hours from you. I can assure you abortion is not an openly accepted medical procedure here. Legal yes but it is also legal in America. There are people on both sides of the spectrum. But it is probably much more evenly split than you even realise. Among both clinicians and non medical experts.
As an after thought:
What do you mean by fully formed?
Ok 5 year olds are not fully formed. They are still developing. And honestly they are so stupid you might a well classify them as unconscious.
I can murder them right?
My cousin had a cleft lip. I guess thats more malformed but would it have been ok if I had just held his head down really hard with a pillow when he was born. I mean come on. Have you seen cleft lip. You can unseen that once you have.
Yup. The issue is that we now have millions of people who think that sex is simply about fun and games and don’t want the responsibility of backing up their sexual decisions. They want the pleasure of “f—g” people, but be free of emotional attachment and the possibility of a child being born, Which is only escaped by way of technology.
That’s why so many are down on “organized religion”. You know, it’s meant to “control people” as if organization and control are inherently bad. And as if people are doing oh so well without these.
I suppose this refers to what you consider “openly accepted”. I’m referring to availability. If you legitimately require an abortion, chances are you can get one.
And typically subject to far more stringent regulations.
Could we discuss this when I’m better able to coherently articulate myself? My mind is all over the place at the moment.
I may have talked about this on some thread at some point.
But it has been shown that birth control. Like oral contraceptive pill is altering patterns among female mate selection.
Women when on BC tend to on average prefer men who exhibit more I guess typical feminine features. Versus when they are in estrus they just want that alpha dick. Haha.
Since every guy wants to be selected by a mate there is social pressure to conform to this new criteria.
So yeah birth control. Not full proof even when used correctly and it is not idiot proof at all. But worse is the societal impact it may be having.
I also would like to add as a disclaimer for other readers. I am fully aware of the benefits BC has given to the world. I am not an advocate of getting rid of it. I am not saying it has done more harm than good. Just pointing out how it might have some side effects that we may not have predicted.
Not really. I’m being consistently dosed with ketamine via a dose high enough to induce a psychotropic effect (that’s one of the drugs I’m being given). Im trying my best to follow along, but it’s difficult at times.
I don’t think this is comparable to abortion. What I think is closer is, if to survive, someone has to attach themselves to another person. Should people be allowed to turn someone else down? It would result in another person dying. Do people have a right to another’s body?
Yeah I still think its comparable and I brought up specifically in response to unreal saying an unborn child is morally ok to be killed because it is unconscious.
So if thats the case then how about you when you are under anaesthesia cause now you are no longer conscious?
So could you and I at least agree that someone being unconscious does not make it morally acceptable to kill them? Being unconscious has no bearing onto the morality of the act.
Yeah so comparison of pregnancy to parasitism is annoying. Sorry I can’t control human physiology. We evolved such that women are responsible for gestation. Ce la vie.
But if we can agree that an unborn child is innocent. Has done nothing wrong. And deserves a chance at life because if uninterrupted will become a living breathing joy bringing child (hopefully joy bringing/usually joy bringing).
IF we can agree on that. What I said directly above.
Then I am sure we can agree that killing that unborn child because of the effects that pregnancy and delivery have on the body is immoral.
It should be noted world/political views don’t have to align in order for two people to be friends.
Some of my friends are polar opposites to me regarding where they lie on the political spectrum. I tend to care less about someone’s world view and more about whether someone is a good/kind person + whether I can have interesting or meaningful conversations.
Agreed, but there’s a difference between unconscious and never conscious/not capable of being conscious because you legitimately don’t have a fully formed brain (not like the developing brain of a toddler… But no significant electrical activity).
Is it immoral to take life support away from a vegetable?
Harkens up memories of the whole Terry Schaivo debacle in the states some 20 years back.
Probably not. I am not entirely comfortable with that issue to say it is or isn’t.
But I am comfortable in saying it is not comparable.
Here is why.
Someone who has a supper low Glasgow coma scale (GCS) with no hope of recovery because of traumatic brain injury (TBI) is not the same as an unborn child.
Unborn child will be born and grow become a human being. Hopefully right.
Low GCS post TBI they are not recovering.
Never conscious and not capable of being conscious are not the same thing.
Vegetable and unborn not equal.
Unborn brain is full of electrical activity. Probably the most at any point in development or life.
So to come full circle. It may be immoral to take life support away from a vegetable. But its not the same moral dilemma as killing an unborn child. Totally different.
I’m not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that these were the reactions of different members of my external family to my family’s transition to Catholism in a largely Buddhist/Taoist area. My grandfather actually beat the living crap out of my father when he said he was converting, only to be dissuaded by sympathetic relatives present at the time. He finally converted on his deathbed just 3 days prior to his demise.
I mean, you see why I’m so pro freedom of individuals? Because it applies to so many things that one society can deem completely unacceptable while another can fully embrace. It’s not perfect, just better than the alternative IMHO. There are bad things, there are good things, and there are things that we don’t yet fully understand.
Were we wrong to go against accepted social norms or “moral behavior” that defined the part of society we lived in while influencing other extended family members to convert too? If you believe in a Christian hell, we managed to avoid it while all the others are going to weep and gnash their teeth for all eternity.
EDIT:
Hell, I’ll even tell you some of the insults I got all the way to the early 90s.
“Lapdog of Western colonizers.”
“Not Chinese anymore/Fake Chinese/Fake Westerner.”
“Race traitor”
“Banana - yellow on the outside, white on the inside.”
When you look at these statements, you can see it’s not even a religious issue, but a cultural one, i.e, a reaction to the fear of cultural erosion.