Religion Catch All

[squating_bear]

@pat

@squating_bear

How many Muslims have you seen?

Shirley you must be joking?

Not at all Pat. What you said was:

@pat

The part I cannot get over and the part I dislike the most is there near universal hatred for Jews. And maybe that is the answer. It certainly can be the answer. I have never met a (single) muslim, or seen a (single) Muslim who did not hate Jews. They can be fine with everybody else, they can even be friendly-ish with Jewish individuals, but they hate Jews by default.

Some emphasis added, but I just might become damned for sticking around on a forum so many years without standing against stuff like this often enough.

And I almost did leave it, yet again, since it was a few months old and I’m lazy, but you actually extended a small argument with unreal to be very specific that you really meant every. single. Muslim.

I should be angry, but at least this is not joking territory for me.

@pat

you will not convince me that the vast plurality of Muslims don’t have some degree of disdain for the Jews.

Sure, and I do suspect that the vast plurality of Muslims have some degree of disdain for the Muslims. There is definitely a problem (in my view) with American Muslims being overly … loyal (for lack of a better word) to their “home country” and barely giving a damn about Muslims anywhere else.

@pat

How many ME countries have specific charters about Jews and Israel? Like a lot of them.

I can’t remember, I have seen stuff about this but if I was going to make a list about it, it would be more detailed than one list with those binary questions.

What’s actually detailed in those charters might be more significant than simply a number of countries.

More on this below.

@pat

How many countries have expressed the desire to wipe Israel off the map and run ‘Jerusalem red with the blood of Jews’?

No idea. Well, except … here’s an idea. An entire country can’t easily express something like that. A person could, but that’s very different.

How many entire countries should be … disdained for the words of a few? How many millions of human souls should be held in disdain for that quote you skillfully wield Pat?

@pat

While it’s not big news anymore, the fact still stands that at least where the Muslim leadership is concerned, it’s a faith badly in need of reform.

What Muslim leadership?

There’s definitely no singular “the” Muslim leadership like the Pope, or even a singular hierarchically structured organization comparable to the Catholic Church, for example.

There are Muslim scholars which I doubt you are referring to. They are not closely organized and pretty much give speeches at events that I watch on YouTube. There are dictators and politicians which you might be referring to. Many Imams have been arrested in Saudi Arabia in recent years, seems there is always at least one to be soon executed - not likely for terrorism

Saudi arrests famous Quran reciter Abdullah Basfar

Q/A || "Saudi Goverment Will Kick You Out of Madinah Uni if You Speak Out Publicly Against Them"

How Saudi Scholars Advise Saudi Rulers? Shaykh Falaah Ismail al-Mandakar

@pat

“Death to Israel and Death to Jews” and the dreams of eradicating Israel and Jews is simply not acceptable and I won’t accept it. And many, many, many in your faith holds those views. You may not, but the numbers don’t lie.

Sure. That’s far away from what you said before. When public approval gets low for a dictatorship, hatred for an outside other can be very useful. That’s not Islamic, even if Muslims do it.

How helpful is it to have specific charters about Jews and Israel? To measure effectiveness you’d first need a purpose. If I was a dictator, and I wanted to stay a dictator, I might someday realize that exporting terrorists is much easier and effective than crushing internal dissent. Having such a release valve would most certainly make the internal dissent more manageable.

Can you think of a better reason for such specific charters? Maybe you can.

I’m not even telling you to ignore that rhetoric - just don’t assume you’ll be innocent in any and every manner of repeating it.

@pat

While it’s not big news anymore, the fact still stands that at least where the Muslim leadership is concerned, it’s a faith badly in need of reform.

I don’t agree with this and it’s not a fact. I highly doubt it’s even a well formed opinion, but a pleasant surprise would be great.

Who is “the Muslim leadership”, and do they need a reform?

Or are you saying that Islam needs a reform which is self evident by looking at those people (who you can specify)?

[pat]

@squating_bear

Some emphasis added, but I just might become damned for sticking around on a forum so many years without standing against stuff like this often enough.

And I almost did leave it, yet again, since it was a few months old and I’m lazy, but you actually extended a small argument with unreal to be very specific that you really meant every. single. Muslim.

And I stand by it. I was evoking anecdotal experience having met and known a fair number of Muslims in my life time. People I really liked, but they just also happened to express or groan with regards to Jews of Israel. Hence, I have never met a Muslim who didn’t strongly dislike Jews. Perhaps hate is a strong word, I will grant you that.

@squating_bear

No idea. Well, except … here’s an idea. An entire country can’t easily express something like that. A person could, but that’s very different.

Hello Iran? Hello the elect representatives of the Palestinians? That’s just off the top of my head. Jordan has also been increasingly hostile towards Israel. And do we even have to think about Saudi Arabia or can we accept that as default?

@squating_bear

What Muslim leadership?

So you are Shia’t?

@squating_bear

How helpful is it to have specific charters about Jews and Israel?

Beats me dude, I didn’t make those charters. Of course it doesn’t make sense to me. Especially as a matter of pure academics, there is no Islam without Judaism.

@squating_bear

I don’t agree with this and it’s not a fact. I highly doubt it’s even a well formed opinion, but a pleasant surprise would be great.

Who is “the Muslim leadership”, and do they need a reform?

Or are you saying that Islam needs a reform which is self evident by looking at those people (who you can specify)?

And you have every right to disagree. But the facts are on my side. If a religion, group, club, organization believes some or any of the following writ large, than it’s an entity in need of reform.
Death to Apostates
Death to those who make effigies or disrespect the prophet in any way.
Death to women who commit adulatory ← (I got some sympathy for this one )
Death to Jews
etc., etc., etc.
Studies have found that majorities of peoples in Muslims countries believe in some or all of these prescriptions. And if that is true, then yeah, some sort of reform has to occur. You may not be that way. You may be the nicest guy in the world and don’t believe any of that stuff.
But from the likes of people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz have expressed and exposed that these notions and beliefs are way more prevalent in most Muslim countries, than not.
I don’t want to pound on your faith, dude. Most of the Muslims I have met are awesome people for the most part. But you aren’t going to convince me that their isn’t a problem ravaging the greater part of the population of people in this faith.
I don’t have to go on what people say either.
I can easily look at actions. How many terror attacks and various other forms of major violence has been carried out by other ideologies vs. Islam in the last 40 or so years? And how much shit has to occur before I am allowed to believe that something is ‘rotten in denmark’, so to speak?
“Comon’ man!” to quote biden. Yeah, Islam’s reputation has a bloody nose. That doesn’t mean your not a good person. It doesn’t mean that you are not a better person than myself, even.
It just means that Islam currently has a bad, but well earned reputation for hate and violence. Catholicism has a reputation of kiddie rape and I am Catholic. So it’s not a slight on you, personally.

[squating_bear]

@pat

@squating_bear

What Muslim leadership?

So you are Shia’t?

No I consider myself Sunni.

You’ve not answered the question. You commented on the Muslim leadership and I don’t know who you were talking about. I don’t think anyone does, even yourself.

@pat

@squating_bear

I don’t agree with this and it’s not a fact. I highly doubt it’s even a well formed opinion, but a pleasant surprise would be great.

Who is “the Muslim leadership”, and do they need a reform?

Or are you saying that Islam needs a reform which is self evident by looking at those people (who you can specify)?

And you have every right to disagree. But the facts are on my side. If a religion, group, club, organization believes some or any of the following writ large, than it’s an entity in need of reform.
Death to Apostates
Death to those who make effigies or disrespect the prophet in any way.
Death to women who commit adulatory ← (I got some sympathy for this one )
Death to Jews
etc., etc., etc.
Studies have found that majorities of peoples in Muslims countries believe in some or all of these prescriptions. And if that is true, then yeah, some sort of reform has to occur

I agree that reforms so that Islam is taught better to Muslims in Muslim majority countries would be great. Which could lead to social reforms which would also be great. Which could lead to political reforms which could also be great.

I can guess that you consider Islam to be “an entity in need of reform” from your general tone along with the fact that you’ve switched from talking about “the Muslim leadership” to “the masses”. Islam being an entity is not a fact. If Islam is or were an entity, then reforming that entity would make it no longer Islam.

Death to humans who commit adultery is the correct answer, I wonder how it was surveyed to arrive at that result.

@pat

But you aren’t going to convince me that their isn’t a problem ravaging the greater part of the population of people in this faith.
I don’t have to go on what people say either.
I can easily look at actions. How many terror attacks and various other forms of major violence has been carried out by other ideologies vs. Islam in the last 40 or so years? And how much shit has to occur before I am allowed to believe that something is ‘rotten in denmark’, so to speak?
“Comon’ man!” to quote biden. Yeah, Islam’s reputation has a bloody nose.

You are allowed to believe whatever you do. I might try on occasion to modify those beliefs or mitigate their spread. Not everybody can believe whatever they’d like tho.

People talk about modifying a 1400 year old belief system because of violence in the most recent 5% of that time frame. Well the belief system hasn’t changed to cause that violence.

And “Islam’s reputation” is another issue

Of course there’s huge problems for Muslims today. I don’t view those problems as the natural consequence of following Islam. The Islamic answers are the best answers for Muslims in an Islamic society. That’s by definitions. There’s not an Islamic society today to point at and say “there it is, right there”.

There’s no such thing as “Muslim countries”, there are countries that have a Muslim majority in the population. How many “Christian countries” are there in your view? While average Muslims in those countries might be more religious than average Christians in the West, the government’s are neither Christian nor Islamic.

@pat

How many terror attacks and various other forms of major violence has been carried out by other ideologies vs. Islam in the last 40 or so years?

I’m not aware of Islam carrying out terror attacks. I’m not aware of Christianity carrying out terror attacks ever either, but I understand you may disagree.

It’s just better to not believe it, think of it, or speak of it in those terms

@Jesus (allegedly)

and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

Quran 51:55

@pat

I don’t want to pound on your faith, dude.

Well, Matthew 7 might give you an easier time in stopping if you’d like. I don’t understand hurting me to be your goal - you say what you say after having processed what you’ve seen. I think and hope you can do better though. It seems you are letting off steam to me, but not in a way that is constructive beyond that. Possibly very destructive.

You go ahead and be positively influenced by my words, negatively influenced, or neither. It’s partly your choice and partly not. Partly a consequence of choices already made.

[pat]

@squating_bear

You’ve not answered the question. You commented on the Muslim leadership and I don’t know who you were talking about. I don’t think anyone does, even yourself.

Are not Imam’s considered leaders? Are you saying there is no hierarchy at all in Islam? Certainly there are Imams and even some Imams more elevated than others. Then you have Ayatollah, whom I believe to be a spiritual leader, is he not?

@squating_bear

I agree that reforms so that Islam is taught better to Muslims in Muslim majority countries would be great. Which could lead to social reforms which would also be great. Which could lead to political reforms which could also be great.

Um, not sure if I am following, but if I am following I am not interested in anyway of any part of Sharia law being snaking into the greater system of government. However, I will admit, it would be better than the leadership we have now, in the US.
And I will grant that pure, unpolluted core Islam is probably just fine. And I am certain, I don’t have a problem with its core teachings.
What does not work is the behavior of way too many of it’s adherent’s acting in truly horrifying ways. Or people who consider themselves muslim’s having truly horrifying beliefs. Which they are obviously allowed to have as long as they don’t act on those instincts that affect me in anyway.

@squating_bear

I can guess that you consider Islam to be “an entity in need of reform” from your general tone along with the fact that you’ve switched from talking about “the Muslim leadership” to “the masses”.

Now you conflating two different things. If you want to claim that Islam is a completely rudderless ship and there is no leadership, well sure. I guess you on your own. When I went to Mosque, there was an Imam there and he was teaching. I suppose he had not right to do that? There are not teachers and students in Islam, it’s leaderless?
I don’t by that claim.
And whether or not there are leaders in Islam, there are a plurality of self described Muslim populations who believe things like ‘death to apostates’ and shit like that. Am I not supposed to believe my lying eyes?
What do you think about prominent Muslim Scholar Mohammed Hijab?
And is he not a leader? He’s just some dude claiming to be one? He’s supposedly a moderate conservative. I found him quite disturbing, but I digress.

@squating_bear

People talk about modifying a 1400 year old belief system because of violence in the most recent 5% of that time frame. Well the belief system hasn’t changed to cause that violence.

5%? Are you joking? Granted the modern era has seen the most horrifying actions so-called Muslims have wrought forth on humanity in all of history, but I wouldn’t exactly try to claim that majority Islam’s existence has been overwhelmingly peaceful. Definitely not 95%. Common, I have read history dude.

@squating_bear

Of course there’s huge problems for Muslims today. I don’t view those problems as the natural consequence of following Islam.

Maybe it’s not, but the correlation is mighty strong. And it’s not like the majority of the Muslim world has come out and overwhelmingly condemned the many act of terrorism that has occurred in the last 40 years. It’s not like majority muslim populations are shouting down their “few bad apples”.

@squating_bear

I’m not aware of Islam carrying out terror attacks. I’m not aware of Christianity carrying out terror attacks ever either, but I understand you may disagree.

Semantics, as I just explained above. A awful lot of folk who called themselves “Muslim”, did a lot of horrifying shit the last half century. And the Muslim world writ large, has not exactly blown the world away with condemnation of these acts. Hell, many times it’s the opposite, or the most tepid of condemnations in history.

@squating_bear

Well, Matthew 7 might give you an easier time in stopping if you’d like. I don’t understand hurting me to be your goal - you say what you say after having processed what you’ve seen. I think and hope you can do better though. It seems you are letting off steam to me, but not in a way that is constructive beyond that. Possibly very destructive.

lol… Taking this very self aggrandizing, elitist, victim-ist, condescending tone won’t work on me, bub. You can shove that shit right now. Turning to this dark twitter-type elitist pitty on me, the plebe, will only inform me that I am winning an argument, rather than having a conversation. So knock that shit off, if you intend for me to take you as a serious person.
If you read, rather than grazed my posts, I have been as fair as possible. But you ain’t gonna try to make me believe that which I know not to be true.

[squating_bear]

If the masjid(s) you visited were in America then they were most likely 501c3 organizations. The Imam(s) would usually be the president or employee of that organizations to my limited knowledge. There’s not a singular heirarchy in Islam for you to have been criticizing, there’s millions if you’d like.

So I will never know who you actually meant, which is fine

Perfect, in fact

@pat

@squating_bear

I agree that reforms so that Islam is taught better to Muslims in Muslim majority countries would be great. Which could lead to social reforms which would also be great. Which could lead to political reforms which could also be great.

Um, not sure if I am following, but if I am following I am not interested in anyway of any part of Sharia law being snaking into the greater system of government. However, I will admit, it would be better than the leadership we have now, in the US.
And I will grant that pure, unpolluted core Islam is probably just fine. And I am certain, I don’t have a problem with its core teachings.

I don’t think you were following, but thank you for the kind gestures

@pat

What do you think about prominent Muslim Scholar Mohammed Hijab?
And is he not a leader? He’s just some dude claiming to be one? He’s supposedly a moderate conservative. I found him quite disturbing, but I digress.

I also find him quite disturbing with the trash talking and thuggish demeanor. I avoid his videos when YouTube recommends them for that reason. Beyond that I can’t remember anything I should have against him. He is intelligent, sure there’s bunches of YouTube channels of “the Muslim leadership” if you’d like to call it that. Not to say he isn’t a prominent Muslim Scholar, I’ve only seen him casually on YouTube. A degree of casualness to his videos that’s a bit bizarre, but, heh whisper: it’s probably cuz he’s British

I wasn’t saying there’s no such thing as a Muslim that is a leader. It’s that when someone says “the Muslim leadership” no one has a damn clue who you are specifically talking about. Most readers won’t give it a second thought. Most writers wouldn’t either. So it just gives a further negative impression unjustly

@pat

While it’s not big news anymore, the fact still stands that at least where the Muslim leadership is concerned, it’s a faith badly in need of reform.

So you would like Islam to reform the Imams or you would like the Imams to reform the Islam?

Joking at this point, don’t sweat it

@pat

So knock that shit off, if you intend for me to take you as a serious person.
If you read, rather than grazed my posts, I have been as fair as possible. But you ain’t gonna try to make me believe that which I know not to be true.

Neither of those were goals of mine

Peace

[squating_bear]

@pat

@squating_bear

People talk about modifying a 1400 year old belief system because of violence in the most recent 5% of that time frame. Well the belief system hasn’t changed to cause that violence.

5%? Are you joking? Granted the modern era has seen the most horrifying actions so-called Muslims have wrought forth on humanity in all of history, but I wouldn’t exactly try to claim that majority Islam’s existence has been overwhelmingly peaceful. Definitely not 95%. Common, I have read history dude.

Well you said “the past 40 years” so why should I be joking?

I’d have liked to have gotten you to take yourself and your own words more seriously, not me, not mine, fwiw

Peace

[pat]

@squating_bear

Well you said “the past 40 years” so why should I be joking?

I’d have liked to have gotten you to take yourself and your own words more seriously, not me, not mine, fwiw

Peace

Well, it’s because you went and brought up it’s 1400 year history. Which has been pretty bloody, certainly not 5% of the time. That’s what I was referring to regarding your statement.
As far as the rest, I think we’re cool. I think we understand each other for the most part and I certainly am not interested in picking at the minutia. Overall a good dialog, I appreciate it.

[squating_bear]

I was wondering the other day when you say reforms do you mean:

a) changing the Quran
b) changing Hadith
c) something else

[unreal24278]

@BrickHead

think you know by now that I don’t think there’s an anti-Semite everywhere I turn

How many anti semites have you personally met?

Ive met more than my share of people who have a legitimate hatred of jews. Either as a race, as a culture or both

Within the Western world you’ll also find many who don’t like muslims. No group is immune from hatred.

However anti semitism towards Jews… and Muslims is on the rise. Jews represent a populational minority despite harbouring a great deal of societal power.

If antisemitism/disdain towards judaism or Islam is promoted whithin societies wherein these demographics represent minority status (i.e bogan town with only a few muslims) this renders problematic as it enables the masses to inflict racially/antiwhatever related violence against these individuals.

Case in point

I know people who are now/have fled France because they were having rocks thrown through their windows… or their kids were getting beaten up… because they’re Jewish.

I’m sure there are Arabs who get beaten up because they’re arab. Particuarly in countries like the USA, Poland or Australia (depending on community).

Is there an anti semite wherever you turn?

Or an islamophobe wherever you turn?

I suppose that depends where you live? But hate crimes involving antisemitism are uniformly increasing across Europe.

Personally… i’ve only met one anti semitic muslim. The rest seriously didn’t care/have a problem with jews.

[BrickHead]

@unreal24278

How many anti semites have you personally met?

Two, as in two men who are seriously critical of Jews and believe they should not be part of white society and consider themselves white nationalists. So that’s 43 years in which I met two!

Hardly anyone in the US is seriously anti-Semitic. Hence I said I don’t think anti-Semites are at every turn, because they’re not.

@unreal24278

Is there an anti semite wherever you turn?

Or an islamophobe wherever you turn?

I suppose that depends where you live?

Right. I am actually totally unafraid of anti-Semitism in the US taking a seriously dangerous form any time soon despite isolated incidents, even those in NY in the past few years.

[unreal24278]

@BrickHead

form any time soon despite isolated incidents, even those in NY in the past few years

Not in the USA outside of isolated incidents (Pittsburgh synoguge shooting etc). I wouldn’t be scared to walk around with a star of david around my neck in 99% of the USA… or a yarmulke

Plenty of people wouldn’t even know what either of these are

Obviously theres the odd chance I bump into one of the few klansmen that still exist, but society as a whole where you live isn’t going to accept that guy beating me to a pulp because i’m jewish.

But there are areas of the world where anti semitism is far more prevelant.

[BrickHead]

@unreal24278

klansmen that still exist

What is this guy likely gonna do upon seeing you?
Nothing.

[pat]

C - ← what ever it is that causes bloodlust in a disproportionately high number of Muslims. That which has them require the death of Israel or Jews in high numbers of those who claim to practice Islam. Whatever causes Muslims to go nuts and kill people when other mock their faith, that needs the reform.
When we can be secure and have complete and utter faith that people who think differently don’t want to kill us who don’t think like them, then all my problems with Islam ends.
So what ever it is in Islam or outside of it, that causes people to shoot, bomb kill or main in the name of Islam is that part that needs reform. That’s all I am asking.

I am not say you. I am not even saying most. I am saying the population of fanatics is disproportionally high in Islam and they do an outsized amount of damage. That’s where the reform needs to happen.
Outside of not having to fear being non-Muslim around Muslim’s I am cool as the other side of the pillow. Y’all can think, feel, practice, worship in any fashion you like and I am totally cool with it.

[pat]

@unreal24278

However anti semitism towards Jews… and Muslims is on the rise.

Do you have any data to back that up? I have definitely seen a rise in anti-Semitism, I have seen a slight bump in anti-Christian sentiment. I have not seen any thing regarding Islam. I am willing to learn if you can provide the data. Just cause I haven’t seen it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened.

[mnben87]

@pat

I have not seen any thing regarding Islam. I am willing to learn if you can provide the data.

I think the you can’t criticize Islam, but you can criticize Christianity thing is mostly a myth. A few of the really woke seem to subscribe to this, but I don’t think it is very many. I see plenty of people poke at the parts of Islam that are in conflict with the values of Western secular societies.

I have seen many Europeans changing their tune when their area get a lot of Muslim refugees (especially the refugee men, who seem disproportionate to women and children). I’ve seen women state that they don’t feel as safe with refugee men around. I’ve seen people frustrated at the lack of social integration. I don’t see it as a racist thing, it isn’t about skin color, it is more about people moving in who have a much different culture (one that is seen by many as regressive and ignorant), and not changing to match where they moved to.

Just my observations, and I was actually pretty surprised to see liberal Europeans stating these things.

[hustlinghat93]

@pat

The part I cannot get over and the part I dislike the most is there near universal hatred for Jews

I’m not sure what type of Muslims you have met and not discrediting your observations on the people you have met but I don’ think there is a universal hatred for Jews in the Islamic world. However, I do 100% agree there is near universal hate for Jews in the Arab world.

@pat

I am saying the population of fanatics is disproportionally high in Islam

I am genuinely unsure about if I agree with this statement. On one hand I agree the minority extremists in Islam ‘make the most noise’ compared to fanatics of any other group and I agree out we read a lot about terrorism attempts or acts where the perpetrator is Muslim.

On the other hand I disagree with your statement because what is reported as “terrorism” in the media is very inconsistent and the term is used very loosely in regards to a Muslim which gives the impression that their is a disproportionate amount of fanatics.

You seem intelligent and not biased to the point of having unreasonable so I am sure you would agree if a Muslim kid committed a school shooting due to being bullied it would be more likely considered an act of Terrorism than if a Christian kid committed a school shooting due to being bullied?

I will try and find a few articles (if you wish) such as a Christian Male who killed a group of teenagers because they called The Virgin Mary a Whore who cheated being reported as ‘Man with mental health issues commits murder’ (Paraphrasing) and compare those to instances a Muslim Male with mental health issues kills and that being deemed terrorism.

@mnben87

I see plenty of people poke at the parts of Islam that are in conflict with the values of Western secular societies.

@mnben87

I have seen many Europeans changing their tune when their area get a lot of Muslim refugees

@unreal24278

However anti semitism towards Jews… and Muslims is on the rise

I agree with this that they are both on the rise. However the rise in anti-Semitism is more apparent because:

• Anything which remotely criticizes Israel, Jews or anything associated with either of those is automatically deemed anti-Semitic by default
• Unfortunately Muslims as a whole are more known for stuff such as 9/11 or Saudi human right violations and Jews as a whole are unfortunately known for the holocaust so automatically our perception to one is as an aggressor to our society and the other as the victim of our failure to act when they were oppressed.
• Certain traits, which the west does not accept, of both extreme Muslims and Orthodox Jews (such as marital rape) should rightfully be kept away from our society. But Orthodox Jews tend to form their own little communities and stay apart so these acts we disagree with is ‘out of sight, out of mind’ where as the extreme Muslims are visible with their behavior. Which makes the increase in anti- Muslim views more acceptable because it is linked with being anti reprehensible acts.

[The_Myth]

Look, here is the bottom line - intolerance is unacceptable.

Judaism, Islam, Israel, and the Middle East are intolerant and therefore unacceptable. Feel free to throw Christianity, Mormonism, and any other ism into that mix.

End of discussion.

[squating_bear]

@The_Myth

intolerance is unacceptable

Interesting, can you elaborate on this part?

[The_Myth]

All paths lead to the same god. None is better than the other. Focusing on our differences creates strife. We are all on the same path and righteousness is karmically toxic.

[cyclonengineer]

@The_Myth

Focusing on our differences creates strife.

While this is certainly true, I am curious as to what led you to this conclusion?

@The_Myth

All paths lead to the same god

No judgement, genuinely curious on your thought process here.