Someone brought these exact questions to me once. I thought about them.
I don’t believe a decision about abortion should be made on because of rare instances. Secondly this innocent baby had absolutely no say about coming into existence despite coming into existence from a tragedy. Thirdly, though the woman and her family would have no idea of the health status and Heritable traits of the rapist, the father, who’s to say that the baby will not be lovable and grow up to be a great person? I’d like someone to answer this and I see a trend in focusing on the rapist’s baby being unwanted, and completely ignoring a blessing that could come from a tragedy!
Possible intellectual disability of the baby or death of the mother? Hmm, how about people get a reality check and realize sex isn’t all fun and games? You play, you pay! Either you pay in raising children properly, do whatever you must to deal with disabilities if they are there, or face death. Don’t wanna face these, don’t have sex, or use birth control, which can even be done pretty reliably even without condoms and pills, so long as one and has self control.
If my son wants to play big boy games and knocks some young woman Up in the future unexpectedly … “Get to work pal, and start paying those bills. Sorry, sex isn’t all about ‘tappin’ that ass’. Don’t wanna be a big boy? You shouldn’t have played big-boy games.”
There are Plenty of problems a child can have that aren’t evident in the womb. Can one predict that his or her kid will have all sorts of maladies in the future or not? Nope! What if ones children acquire disabilities? What now? Throw them away? My own drove brother drove us up a fucking wall For years with his truancy, behavior and drug dealing for several years! My home was dysfunctional for the whole time. DT’s started watching him and the apartment. He eventually went away for three years. He was a minor so my mom couldn’t just throw him out, but even if he was older l, it would take some serious nerve (rightfully or wrongfully) for a woman to BTFO her kid, even if she were being harmed in some cases.
This isn’t about me. I simply made an example that one cannot even predict future problems. So I look at this as yet another example as people running away from hardship instead of dealing with what life throws at us, in many cases that being extremely difficult and uncomfortable! It’s really remarkable that the focus in such conversions is Literally running away and literally death!
I was also asked before about the thought of my brother’s aborted baby who I wanted to adopt because of his and his gf’s irresponsibility possibly having defects or behavioral problems from her alcoholism. I thought about that and asked myself, “What makes me exempt from hardship? Why should I in particular have the smoothest existence?” Honestly I don’t think I’d be able to have a connection with a disabled child in the same way I would for a healthy child, but I still don’t see why such a child would have to be killed because of some parents stupid action, in this case drinking while pregnant.
So… two commited, married lovers in a loving, tender relationship try for a child.
The wife contracts intrahepatic cholastasis, is jaundiced, itching all over and suffering hepatic failure. I’m not one to judge, but at this point do you believe it’s appropriate to prioritise the life of an unborn infant over that of the mother?
The thought of maternal mortality and/or life threatening complications isn’t a concept typically thought of when two are trying for a child.
As to the rapist impregnating a woman. There are a few unforeseen variables I’d like to take on within this argument. First, the psychological torment associated with a woman carrying the child of a man/woman of which has potentially irreparably traumatised this individual. PTSD/severe depression can lead to suicidal idealation (you know first hand this isn’t fun, as do I). You state sex isn’t free of responsibility and I wholeheartedly agree with you, however at this point responsibility is thrown out of the equation. No one makes a choice to be raped.
From what I’ve learned back in the day, even going by the torah; if the unborn foetus endangers a womans life, generally the priority is taken for that of the mother as opposed to the baby. I believe christianity/catholicism views this differently, prioritising the baby over the mother. I have an opinion, that doesn’t mean my opinion is right. I can’t say with certainty as to which body of thought is the “correct” body of thought as I don’t believe we have a definitive answer, the morality regarding this topic is open for interpretation.
This isn’t about a blessing from tragedy. Chances are the woman would resent the fuck out of that baby. The prospect of neglect and/or adoption opens up, god knows orphanages aren’t all butterflies and rainbows.
What’s more, imagine a rare circumstance wherein the child is that of the woman’s father, brother, uncle, aunt or step-sibling (according to pornhub there must be a lot of these running around…… ew…..), it seems immoral to force one to keep this child given the sheer societal stigma and feverant traumatisation associated with bringing this child to term would entail.
I think you potentially underestimate how uninformed some individuals, even educated adults can be.
Actually there is a method of screening for an array of congenital defects/medical pathologies.
As I’ve specified, a conscious/ability to be aware of surroundings doesn’t develop until around week 26+ of the pregnancy, prior to that I don’t believe it’s akin to murder.
As to hardships/birth defects, let’s say this child was/is born with a malignant birth defect, you take care of said child for a few months and BAM… SIDS/death from a cause in part related to a maladaptive defect and/or damaged brain. This is a very real possibility. What’s more, one must factor in quality of life for the baby. I think the bullying, scrutiny, lack of economic and social opportunities associated with intellectual disability seriously impedes one’s quality of life.
I’d also like to touch on the societal ramifications of making abortion illegal. I’ve linked some data above (a bunch of posts back) and will again if you’re interested. When abortion is illegal and/or means of access is restricted, back alley abortions become fairly popular. These methods are successful, however they endanger the mother. The death toll isn’t exactly all that low, nor is the rate of serious/life threatening consequences. If these ‘back alley abortions’ are occurring in very conservative countries with harsh penalties associated with abortion, perhaps it’s impossible to punish/penalise your way out of the issue.
I’d rather an unborn infant dies as opposed to an unborn infant + the mother, in which cases the mothers family, partner, friends all have to mourn the loss whilst some back alley abortionist rakes in tax free profits
I’d also like to ask you another question. Do you politically identify as independent? Societally you have viewpoints that would be categorised as “far-right” (this isn’t an insult, far right doesn’t equate to stormfront/KKK, just means extremely conservative), but economically you appear to lean fairly far left. These are two diametrically opposed entities. I was wondering whether you’d feel comfortable voting republican given their feverant attitudes towards unregulated capitalism; or democrat for that matter given their attitudes towards an array of societal dilemmas.
Also, you can be against abortion, but permit it under certain circumstances. (i.e use @dt79 ’s response for reference). It isn’t that black and white
also
I think you’re getting emotional, lets remember to blunt/repress any semblance of emotion during this discourse as showcasing feeling isn’t going to help us convey our points (I’m joking here), but obviously there’s a caveat. An emotionally charged argument can quickly turn into an illogical one.
No one is advocating for needles death.
Also, if I may ask. Why have you chosen to covert to catholicism over judaism? Catholics killed a ton of us back during the Spanish Inquisition. No judgement, I’m just wondering if there was an element of catholicism you found preferable to judaism.
Only hand/mouth stuff and the back door until you’re ready to get someone preggers! In all seriousness, think about it. If sex is demonised due to consequence, people (particuarly adolescents) will find ways to flout these bylaws.
There are some who decide this is the way to go. Some parents respond to this by helicopter parenting, but from anecdotal observation this appears to create sneakier/resentful kids.
Off topic, but from what I can dicipher you legitimately seem like a very kind person. As specified I may not agree with your worldview, but your above quote indicates a trait of selflessness I wish more harboured. The world would be a better place with more people like you who are willing to go above and beyond to help others even when there is no supercifial incentive at hand.
I’m sorry to hear about your brother/the home situation you’ve dealt with as a byproduct of your brothers actions.
Sorry, the “black and white” part just threw me off. I respect his views because they’re consistent, just like I’d respect the views of people who are pro-abortion if they are also consistent.
But I said it’s “not black and white” in reference to fluctuating opinion. Therefore indicating one can be purely for abortion, purely against, have mixed opinions etc
I’ll keep this as TL;DR as possible. I was atheistic for much of my life til about two years ago. I went to Hebrew school twice per week from age 8 to 13 and had a Bar Mitzvah. For some of my childhood I did have a genuine interest In Jewish history, learning Hebrew, and the religion, but that was short lived. Eventually Hebrew school was going through the motions, like most of the rest of the reformed Jews I knew.
So from 13 to 39 or so I was atheistic and didn’t think of god at all, but I never scoffed at religion, because I instinctively knew that sharing a common code and community with others was highly important, regardless of a god.
I wasn’t particular about the religion of a future wife because I knew I’d simply respect her religion, attend whatever events, and if she wanted to raise them religious that was fine for me. I’d simply remain atheistic and go along to get along; plus I thought religion for the kids would be beneficial.
I married a Catholic white woman and her mom takes Christianity seriously. So does her Protestant aunt and uncle. So while my wife never went to mass regularly, I’d go along when she did. Plus her family makes a VERY bit deal out of Christmas and Easter.
My children are both baptized and we agreed that although they will know they’re half Jewish ethically, we do not have to make a fuss over Jewish holidays because I was indifferent to Judaism and other religions anyway, and we’ll raise them religiously Catholic.
So time went on and I figured it’s best we have them involved in the church, family, and community considering they entire Anglosphere is one alienating place these days (my view and observation) and conduct and manners have gone to the shitter! So of course I’d want my kids to have a strongly instilled moral code from day one, whether from religion, family, whatever.
Then I thought maybe I should just convert to know the religion and go through the motions. But of course I knew that would be highly disingenuous and fraudulent and sort of like a silent disrespect to the people who would invest their time in me. It would be phony.
So I continued to go to Mass often by myself, just to see what the townspeople are like and started paying attention. All that was stated made sense to me, the lessons, parables, and values. But I still didn’t believe in god.
Then one day this spring it just clicked with me. I concluded that there is evil, and that there is Satan and he has a grip on mankind at the moment. So if there is Satan, there is God, pretty much good and evil. For everything in my life I have tried to remain rational and needed proof. While there is no proof for what I said here, it is simply something I feel in my bones, no explanation needed for me.
So shortly after I started RCIA and as it has gone on the more I truly connect with scripture and learning about the religion. I do not remember Judaism hitting Home with me, but then again, I was very young and those around me were not serious at all about it.
There’s another personal reason that I’m converting but that’s only for my wife and three very-understanding friends. But hey, some of one’s connection with god or Spirituality is likely going to be very private.
Have you ever looked into the background of the Inquisition?
Ironically one of the most motivated Inquisitors was the Catholic ethnic Jew Torquemada.
PS: Jews didn’t treat Christians with kid gloves in some cases either. I’ll speak no further on this here. No group has a a perfectly clean track record.
Not only did Catholics act harshly to Jews sometimes; Protestants did so at times too. The reformer Martin Luther wrote The Jews and Their Lies.
Yeah, I get you. The thing is he justified his views pretty concisely so I can’t see him having any mixed opinions which would be in conflict with them. This is a pretty serious issue that one has to put much thought into before posting his conclusions in such discussions.
Just got out of a stint in hospital for… reasons (it’s been a really horrible year, I’ll leave it at that). Within my unit there were quite a few patients who had severe, intractable PTSD as a result of sexual assault. Had these individuals fallen pregnant and been forced to deal with bearing the child stemming from the source of trauma, the result would’ve almost certainly been suicide.
Rape is a highly, highly traumatic event that isn’t to be taken lightly, the covariable of raising/bearing a child associated with rape only serves as a big reminder, a “fuck you” of sorts to the victims.
Yes, people deal with trauma through different avenues. Some deal with it holistically, others engrain it as a part of their identity and serve to systemically avoid each and every event that serves as a reminder, some turn to drugs, some to self harm etc. The matter of the fact is, plenty of these people wouldn’t have seen a pregnancy as a blessing, it would’ve been the straw that broke the camels back.
It’s almost an hour per episode and there are four seasons. The only two shows like that of which I’ve had the attention span to get through are shameless and skins
And even then it took me a while. I’ve watched a lot of movies/tv-shows, but I generally don’t like spending a large portion of my day watching TV (unless it’s for background noise, in which case that 70s show and friends are my go to).