Interesting to hear the thoughts of bio sig practitioners. I’ve come across quite a few now who after 1 - 2 years of implementing the methods are moving away from them. I know one coach who found only a 50% correlation between insulin related skin folds and bloodwork. Personally i do bloodwork now if i suspect a hormonal issue and use the harpendens for body fat only.
Wow! Fantastic thread!! Seriously, this is exactly the kind of critical and analytical thinking our industry needs! Enough with the deification of certain so called gurus, the simple reality is this: There is rarely only a single right way to do anything!
MD’s, DO’s, DC’s, DDS’s, CPT’s, CSCS’s, RTS’s, MAT’s, and the rest all have something, to offer as no one person can be an expert in all things. All are correct on some topics and full of crap on others. It’s really up to us as learned individuals to do our best to identify what might work for us. That said be wary of those who speak with airs of omniscience who provide short trite answers to complex questions (assuming they suffer questions of course!)
Again good job in bringing this discussion to light OP!
M.
I’m glad some people still listen to us (M.D. , etc). I’m a medical student and I very often read blatantly flase claims. Then it pisses me off when some know-it-all 16 years old kids on the internet try to bash us that we know nothing about supplement/biochimestry/nutrition… The truth is, our understanding of human physiology is much better than we get credit for. If we understand how most diseases work, we must understand quite a bit about how the body works first, no? Of course, we’re not all equal in our knowledge, but some of us really know what we’re talking about…
I am very skeptical of anything Poliquin says since I believe he mainly works with genetic freaks that would succeed regardless of their specific training or nutrition regimen. That said, I tried betaine HCL after reading his comments about it several years ago on T-Nation. After a week of use, my acid reflux symptoms were eliminated (no burning, no more throat clearing) and I had significantly less bloating and gas. Before this I had been prescribed Prilosec, which was effective for the few weeks I took it, but the reflux symptoms returned with a vengeance after being off for a few days.
I do not know the physiological mechanism of action for the betaine HCL, but at least in my case I am 100% confident that it had significant positive effect on my digestive health. My wife even noticed some of the positive changes and she hates supplements and lifting in general.
As far as Poliquin’s protocol, I never noticed any burning sensation and was never able to taper off completely without the symptoms gradually recurring over several weeks. So I still take a 600mg tablet with each meal.
Recently, I noticed some favorable reviews for betaine HCL on amazon that are consistent with my experience:
The reviewers do not seem to be Poliquin worshippers or even weightlifters for that matter.
1 Like
[quote]Big M. wrote:
Wow! Fantastic thread!! Seriously, this is exactly the kind of critical and analytical thinking our industry needs! Enough with the deification of certain so called gurus, the simple reality is this: There is rarely only a single right way to do anything!
MD’s, DO’s, DC’s, DDS’s, CPT’s, CSCS’s, RTS’s, MAT’s, and the rest all have something, to offer as no one person can be an expert in all things. All are correct on some topics and full of crap on others. It’s really up to us as learned individuals to do our best to identify what might work for us. That said be wary of those who speak with airs of omniscience who provide short trite answers to complex questions (assuming they suffer questions of course!)
Again good job in bringing this discussion to light OP!
M.[/quote]
Exactly!
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Just an anecdotal story here. As my calories and protein went up the past couple years, so did my gassiness and general discomfort after eating. I started taking digestive enzymes with meals and almost instantly started to feel better. The mixture is protease, lipase, amylase, bromelian and some other stuff. One of the brands had pepsin and Betaine HCL as well.
I appreciate that the GI doc has systematically addressed each of Poliquins claims with respect to HCL, but what about general digestive enzyme supplements? I thought they were pretty well established, like lactase supplements for lactose intolerant folks.
I’ll be rethinking the brand(s) with betaine hcl until further clarification.[/quote]
Can someone address this? I to use a digestive aid (a complete enzyme supplement) that contains HCL, but not a huge amount. It has helped tremendously with gas/bloat/overall digestion, but is it healthy, should it be continued?[/quote]
Aside from things like lactase enzymes and acidophilus cultures I never put much stock into them. There are foods your body works well with and some it doesn’t. I consider it largely individual. I also know my body has adapted over time to my eating habits and volume of food intake to the point that I don’t get many of the discomfort issues I had years back. Moderate to low carb equals less discomfort for me. Bulking up or simply gaining is a different story.
I am also willing to bet that placebo effects are likely why SO MANY people act like they see such a benefit with all of this stuff across the board.
In other words, it may help a little but not more than understanding your own food choices does.
I can’t drink protein shakes from certain manufacturers unless I want to clear out whatever floor I am working on and set off the smoke detectors. I am lactose intolerant. Lactase helps with this. That is pretty straightforward. That is not quite the same as taking one single “cure all” enzyme and thinking it is needed across the board.[/quote]
I conducted my own experiment, as I recently ran out of the digestive enzyme compelx that I usually utilize. I did not take it for 4 full days, and during that time, bloat/gas/indigestion were all at elevated levels. Just like you, I had terrible gas, and felt uncomfortable after most big meals.
Now fast forward 4 days to when I started taking the digestive enzyme complex again, with lunch and dinner, and all of those problems have since disappeared again. Nothing was changed in my diet, except for the supplement.
Maybe it is just my body, but the digestive enzyme aid has provided tremendous benefit, that is very apparent after 4 days off of it. The best way to find out if it, or anything for that matter, works? try it out for yourself.
[/quote]
I’ve done this as well-- go off for a week and back on while keeping diet the same. Same results that I definitely physically feel better taking them with meals. I don’t think that it’s placebo effect (placebic?). In fact, it’s one of the few supplements that provide a distinct and noticeable effect. However, I’ve not noticed a difference the addition or subtraction of Betaine HCL and Pepsin and after reading the possible (bad) side effects will discontinue use.
I currently use a product called “MegaZyme” (by Enzymatic Therapy) which has the following ingredient list:
Pancreatic Enzymes 10x 325 Mg
PROTEASE ACTIVITY 81250 Usp
LIPASE ACTIVITY 6500 Usp
AMYLASE ACTIVITY 81250 Usp
Trypsin 75 Mg
Papain 50 Mg
Bromelain (1,200 M.C.U./G) 50 Mg
Amylase 10 Mg
Lipase 10 Mg
Lysozyme 10 Mg
Chymotrypsin 2 Mg
PX- My understanding of the basic enzyme families are: Amylase for carbohydrates, Lipase for fats, Protease for proteins (obviously I’m simplifying). Why do you hold more stock in Lipase and Amylase (from previous post) and not Protease? I like this particular enzyme formula for that exact reason-- simple P/L/A enzymes.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Just an anecdotal story here. As my calories and protein went up the past couple years, so did my gassiness and general discomfort after eating. I started taking digestive enzymes with meals and almost instantly started to feel better. The mixture is protease, lipase, amylase, bromelian and some other stuff. One of the brands had pepsin and Betaine HCL as well.
I appreciate that the GI doc has systematically addressed each of Poliquins claims with respect to HCL, but what about general digestive enzyme supplements? I thought they were pretty well established, like lactase supplements for lactose intolerant folks.
I’ll be rethinking the brand(s) with betaine hcl until further clarification.[/quote]
Can someone address this? I to use a digestive aid (a complete enzyme supplement) that contains HCL, but not a huge amount. It has helped tremendously with gas/bloat/overall digestion, but is it healthy, should it be continued?[/quote]
Aside from things like lactase enzymes and acidophilus cultures I never put much stock into them. There are foods your body works well with and some it doesn’t. I consider it largely individual. I also know my body has adapted over time to my eating habits and volume of food intake to the point that I don’t get many of the discomfort issues I had years back. Moderate to low carb equals less discomfort for me. Bulking up or simply gaining is a different story.
I am also willing to bet that placebo effects are likely why SO MANY people act like they see such a benefit with all of this stuff across the board.
In other words, it may help a little but not more than understanding your own food choices does.
I can’t drink protein shakes from certain manufacturers unless I want to clear out whatever floor I am working on and set off the smoke detectors. I am lactose intolerant. Lactase helps with this. That is pretty straightforward. That is not quite the same as taking one single “cure all” enzyme and thinking it is needed across the board.[/quote]
I conducted my own experiment, as I recently ran out of the digestive enzyme compelx that I usually utilize. I did not take it for 4 full days, and during that time, bloat/gas/indigestion were all at elevated levels. Just like you, I had terrible gas, and felt uncomfortable after most big meals.
Now fast forward 4 days to when I started taking the digestive enzyme complex again, with lunch and dinner, and all of those problems have since disappeared again. Nothing was changed in my diet, except for the supplement.
Maybe it is just my body, but the digestive enzyme aid has provided tremendous benefit, that is very apparent after 4 days off of it. The best way to find out if it, or anything for that matter, works? try it out for yourself.
[/quote]
I’ve done this as well-- go off for a week and back on while keeping diet the same. Same results that I definitely physically feel better taking them with meals. I don’t think that it’s placebo effect (placebic?). In fact, it’s one of the few supplements that provide a distinct and noticeable effect. However, I’ve not noticed a difference the addition or subtraction of Betaine HCL and Pepsin and after reading the possible (bad) side effects will discontinue use.
I currently use a product called “MegaZyme” (by Enzymatic Therapy) which has the following ingredient list:
Pancreatic Enzymes 10x 325 Mg
PROTEASE ACTIVITY 81250 Usp
LIPASE ACTIVITY 6500 Usp
AMYLASE ACTIVITY 81250 Usp
Trypsin 75 Mg
Papain 50 Mg
Bromelain (1,200 M.C.U./G) 50 Mg
Amylase 10 Mg
Lipase 10 Mg
Lysozyme 10 Mg
Chymotrypsin 2 Mg
PX- My understanding of the basic enzyme families are: Amylase for carbohydrates, Lipase for fats, Protease for proteins (obviously I’m simplifying). Why do you hold more stock in Lipase and Amylase (from previous post) and not Protease? I like this particular enzyme formula for that exact reason-- simple P/L/A enzymes.[/quote]
He mentioned problems with digestive discomfort. I usually attribute that to carbohydrate digestion. As far as elimination, if his problems were in that area as well, fat digestion could affect his stool. I don’t have anything personal against digestive enzymes. I just don’t personally give them much credit aside from SPECIFIC digestive issues (like gas, bloating, lactose intolerance, diarrhea, etc). I am also not saying papaya enzymes or things of that nature are useless to everyone.
Gotcha. Excellent-- thank you for that clarification.
This shit is too much for me! I just like fuckin’ eating!
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
This shit is too much for me! I just like fuckin’ eating![/quote]
You know, I love to eat. Food has a very special place in my family and traditions.
Now, when the goal is to pack on mass, eating becomes more of a tool and chore than a pleasure. I’m sure the bigger folks here have also experienced taking an hour or two to finish that last steak or chicken breast of the day.
Chewing…slowly…just…to…get…the…last…piece…down…
Sometimes I do not enjoy eating, but it’s a necessary piece of the puzzle. Feeling like crap after doesn’t help with motivation to continue eating, hence the digestive enzymes. Like someone said before, if they help they help. If they don’t, don’t take them.
Here it is, 7:30ish PM, and I just got back from the gym. I am working on a shake, and I still have a 10oz steak I need to eat to get my protein/calories in for the day and you know, I’m really not looking forward to it. I’ll probably still be picking at it 2 hours from now…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Just an anecdotal story here. As my calories and protein went up the past couple years, so did my gassiness and general discomfort after eating. I started taking digestive enzymes with meals and almost instantly started to feel better. The mixture is protease, lipase, amylase, bromelian and some other stuff. One of the brands had pepsin and Betaine HCL as well.
I appreciate that the GI doc has systematically addressed each of Poliquins claims with respect to HCL, but what about general digestive enzyme supplements? I thought they were pretty well established, like lactase supplements for lactose intolerant folks.
I’ll be rethinking the brand(s) with betaine hcl until further clarification.[/quote]
Can someone address this? I to use a digestive aid (a complete enzyme supplement) that contains HCL, but not a huge amount. It has helped tremendously with gas/bloat/overall digestion, but is it healthy, should it be continued?[/quote]
Aside from things like lactase enzymes and acidophilus cultures I never put much stock into them. There are foods your body works well with and some it doesn’t. I consider it largely individual. I also know my body has adapted over time to my eating habits and volume of food intake to the point that I don’t get many of the discomfort issues I had years back. Moderate to low carb equals less discomfort for me. Bulking up or simply gaining is a different story.
I am also willing to bet that placebo effects are likely why SO MANY people act like they see such a benefit with all of this stuff across the board.
In other words, it may help a little but not more than understanding your own food choices does.
I can’t drink protein shakes from certain manufacturers unless I want to clear out whatever floor I am working on and set off the smoke detectors. I am lactose intolerant. Lactase helps with this. That is pretty straightforward. That is not quite the same as taking one single “cure all” enzyme and thinking it is needed across the board.[/quote]
I conducted my own experiment, as I recently ran out of the digestive enzyme compelx that I usually utilize. I did not take it for 4 full days, and during that time, bloat/gas/indigestion were all at elevated levels. Just like you, I had terrible gas, and felt uncomfortable after most big meals.
Now fast forward 4 days to when I started taking the digestive enzyme complex again, with lunch and dinner, and all of those problems have since disappeared again. Nothing was changed in my diet, except for the supplement.
Maybe it is just my body, but the digestive enzyme aid has provided tremendous benefit, that is very apparent after 4 days off of it. The best way to find out if it, or anything for that matter, works? try it out for yourself.
[/quote]
I’ve done this as well-- go off for a week and back on while keeping diet the same. Same results that I definitely physically feel better taking them with meals. I don’t think that it’s placebo effect (placebic?). In fact, it’s one of the few supplements that provide a distinct and noticeable effect. However, I’ve not noticed a difference the addition or subtraction of Betaine HCL and Pepsin and after reading the possible (bad) side effects will discontinue use.
I currently use a product called “MegaZyme” (by Enzymatic Therapy) which has the following ingredient list:
Pancreatic Enzymes 10x 325 Mg
PROTEASE ACTIVITY 81250 Usp
LIPASE ACTIVITY 6500 Usp
AMYLASE ACTIVITY 81250 Usp
Trypsin 75 Mg
Papain 50 Mg
Bromelain (1,200 M.C.U./G) 50 Mg
Amylase 10 Mg
Lipase 10 Mg
Lysozyme 10 Mg
Chymotrypsin 2 Mg
PX- My understanding of the basic enzyme families are: Amylase for carbohydrates, Lipase for fats, Protease for proteins (obviously I’m simplifying). Why do you hold more stock in Lipase and Amylase (from previous post) and not Protease? I like this particular enzyme formula for that exact reason-- simple P/L/A enzymes.[/quote]
He mentioned problems with digestive discomfort. I usually attribute that to carbohydrate digestion. As far as elimination, if his problems were in that area as well, fat digestion could affect his stool. I don’t have anything personal against digestive enzymes. I just don’t personally give them much credit aside from SPECIFIC digestive issues (like gas, bloating, lactose intolerance, diarrhea, etc). I am also not saying papaya enzymes or things of that nature are useless to everyone.[/quote]
I actually think I have the biggest problem digesting large amounts of protein. Heavy training days where I consume about 300g’s of protein are the ones in which I have the most discomfort if I do not supplement with a digestive aid.