Rebuttal to Poliquin's Article on Stomach Acid

I for love Poloquin Articles, and Jack Bauer. Doesn’t mean I believe everything they say. Poloquin articles are highly entertaining and informative, the problem is you have to extract about 95% of the bs. For example I assume your $2000 course provided a highly improved understanding of hormones, which is probably the most important aspect of body design.

Based on the article you posted, it sounds like he’s not giving out hcl capsules, which would support the doctors theory that normal people should not be taking hcl. So again Poloquin added a whole bunch of bs, but there is probably something in his pills that aids basic digestion, as much as an enzyme supplement.

I would not recommend Poloquin to anyone who wants something to follow religiously, but if you want some entertainment and learn a little on the way and think about puzzles and stuff his articles are great.

[quote]fitlab09 wrote:
Good replies men,

Honestly having paid over $2000 and having taken a week off to undertake biosignature internship, I was underwhelmed with the whole thing in general.

I cant fault Charles when it comes to intelligence; he does have near encyclopedic knowledge of everything health, fitness and training related and wouldn’t be in the position he is in today if he wasn’t a good strength coach (and even better marketer) but in saying that he has contributed alot to the field.

Biosignature is without doubt an interesting concept, and may be useful as a rough guide to assess hormonal profile quickly in a gym setting. The most obvious step up from biosignature would be to get bloodwork done to assess hormonal profile, which eliminates the biosignature guesswork of sorts.

For me the real downfall of the program was the heavy emphasis on the use of “Poliquin Approved Supplements” which form the basis of all his protocols to address hormonal states. Furthermore the fact that you have to resit the Biosignature program year after year to maintain your “wholesale status” dissapointed me greatly and is as damning evidence as any as to the true purpose of the Biosignature Course.

Problem is that too many trainers worldwide are sheep and have very little in the way of critical thinking skills. When they pay $2000 for something they want to believe that it will make all the difference and make them a success, and will argue that it “works” even if their results are underwhelming at best, not to mention that they have any way to quantify the actual “results” of individual supplements used. But it must work ? (insert guru name) says so and round and round we go?

Thanks for all who replied made for interesting reading …
[/quote]
Wow! Thanks for the honest response.

[quote]fitlab09 wrote:
While doing some nightly reading, I came across a rebuttal to one of Poliquin’s articles posted here on T-Nation. Having completed the Biosignature course myself it made for interesting reading, definitely food for thought.

A Rebuttal to Charles Poliquin’s Article on Stomach Acid.

Dr. Ralph Giarnella MD practices Gastroenterology in Southington, Connecticut.

T-Nation: Besides zinc and magnesium, what other deficiencies do those of us seeking muscle and performance need to worry about?

Poliquin wrote: The most common one, which actually causes zinc and magnesium deficiency, is hydrochloric acid (HCl) deficiency. Back when I was an undergrad many moons ago, they used to tell us that you lose about 1% stomach acid per year after the age of 40. Well, that’s not true anymore because our high stress levels these days decrease HCl.

We did a study at our Chicago facility where we gave 160 clients an HCL test. Only two people passed it with a medium score; 158 had a horrendous score.

Giarnella MD: What kind of test did he perform? Hydrochloric acid is only present in the stomach when stimulated by the ingestion of meals (gastric phase) or in anticipation of eating (cephalic phase of stimulation).

Did they put a nasogastric tube into the clients stomach, stimulate them in such a way that the stomach would secrete acid and then suction the contents of the stomach to measure the amount of acidity present? When I was a Gastrenterology Fellow in training, we would measure gastric acid secretion by doing such a test. We used intravenous calcium infusion to stimulate the stomach to produce acid. We would then suction the entire contents of the stomach by way of a nasogastric tube and measure both the amount of fluid produced as well as the acidity. The last time I did that test was in 1976 one year before Tegamet was introduced.

Poliquin wrote: If there’s insufficient hydrochloric acid, proteins will pass into the intestine and putrefy instead of being digested.

Giarnella MD: This statement is blatantly false. The vast majority of protein digestion takes place in the small intestine by way of enzymes secreted by the pancreas and these enzymes require an alkaline solution to function.
If the statement made by Poliquin were true the best diet pill in the world would be Nexium because it totally shuts down the stomach’s ability to produce acid.

Poliquin wrote: Carbohydrates will also be left to ferment without adequate digestive enzymes from the pancreas.

Giarnella MD: Another false statement. Carbohydrates are primarily digested by enzymes contained in the brush border of the intestines. These enzymes not only do not need HCL but they work best in an alkaline solution.

Poliquin wrote: Fat digestion is also dependent on the acid’s influence on the pancreas to secrete lipase and the gall bladder to secrete bile.

Giarnella MD: Another false statement. Neither lipase nor bile are stimulated by the presence of acid. The only substance produced by the pancreas that is stimulated by acid is Bicarbonate. Lipase and bile are stimulated by the presence of fat in the duodenum by way of a cholecystikinin.

If we were to believe Poliquin’s statement that protein, carbs and fat cannot be digested without acid then the ideal weight loss pill should be Nexium. Nexium shuts down the stomachs ability to produce acid, therefore taking Nexium you should be able eat all the food that you want without fear of gaining weight, after all it will all end up in your colon and eventually down the toilet.

Poliquin wrote: Poor digestion of these macronutrients means poor absorption of our basic energy sources. Over the last four years, I’ve been amazed how a correction in HCL deficiency has led to not only dramatic improvements in physique and strength, but also improvements in a variety of health parameters. Interestingly enough, in strength-trained individuals those improvements are often associated with gains of 15 to 18 pounds of lean body mass within two months!

Why? They are now absorbing proteins and minerals.

Giarnella MD: I would be interested in testing how much HCL acid is really in the capsules Poliquin is giving his athletes. HCL is one of the most caustic acids. Only Sulfuric (battery) acid and Flouric acid are more caustic. Just a small amount of undiluted HCL in the esophagus can cause significant ulceration.

Poliquin wrote: Here are a few of the symptoms of low stomach acid:

belching or gas within one hour of a meal
bloating shortly after eating
bad breath
loss of taste for meat
nausea after taking supplements
brittle fingernails
undigested food in stool
foul-smelling stools
stomach pain
desire to skip meals
estrogen buildup
acne rosacea
depression

Giarnella MD: All false and unfounded statements.

Poliquin wrote: In the US, many experts estimate the deficiency to be in the range of 40 to 50%. Some gastroenterologists are now advancing that it is today�??�?�¢??s most under-diagnosed ailment.

Giarnella MD: I would like to know who these gastroenterologists are. I have attended national Gastrointestinal conventions, I read GI journals every day and I have never heard anyone state that HCL deficiency is a major problem. Amongst the most sought after and prescribed medications in the world are the Proton Pump inhibitors and H2 blockers better known as Nexium, Tegament and Zanctac. If HCL deficiency were a problem there would be no need for any of these medications

Poliquin wrote: There are a variety of medical tests you can get,

Giarnella MD: I would like to know what these tests are.

Poliquin wrote: but here’s a simple test you can do at home (but I suggest you talk to a physician qualified in nutritional medicine before you try it). It requires a bottle of Betaine HCl, at 200 mg potency per capsule.

Giarnella MD: Betaine HCL is a methyl group donor that functions in the normal metabolic cycle of methionine and reduces homocystinuria in patients with inborn errors of methionine metabolism.

Uses

Homocystinuria

BetaineHCL is used in the management of homocystinuria, including forms of the disorder caused by cystathionine synthase (CBS) deficiency, 5,10-methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) deficiency, or cobalamin cofactor metabolism (cbl) defect, and has been designated an orphan drug by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for the management of this condition. Although betaine can correct biochemical abnormalities (e.g., reduce elevated plasma homocysteine concentrations) in these patients, the drug does not correct the underlying basic genetic disorder.

SIDE EFFECTS:
Nausea, stomach upset, or diarrhea may occur

Cost:
Approx. Price: $185 per 180Grams (source Medscape Drug search)

Poliquin wrote: Here’s how it’s performed:

Step 1: Have a high-protein solid meal (no shakes). Let’s say for illustration purposes a 12-ounce steak and vegetables.

Step 2: Eat half the protein, roughly 6 ounces of the steak.

Step 3: Swallow a 200mg capsule of HCl.

Step 4: Eat the other half of the steak and the vegetables.

Step 5: Wait 15 minutes.

Step 6: If your stomach acid is normal, you’ll feel like you just drank a hot cup of tea or feel a burn. If you feel nothing, you need HCl as a supplement.

So what do you do next? At every meal repeat steps 1 to 6, upping the dose one capsule per meal until you feel the burning sensation. So if it takes five meals to get a burning sensation, you need on average four capsules per meal. If you get to seven capsules and you have no burning, stop the test you’re achloridic, meaning you have almost no stomach acid!

At our Phoenix center alone we’ve been doing over 250 tests a year for the last four years, and in that time I’ve never seen one person not need at least one capsule; the average person tested could feel it after five capsules. You’re getting better when you start feeling a burn at your initial determined dosage. For example, if you found that five capsules was your initial need, you may find that three days later it starts to burn, so then you’d cut back to four capsules with a typical high-protein solid meal, and so on.

Giarnella MD: If the capsules noted in the above citation in fact do contain Hydrochloric acid then this is a very dangerous and possibly life threatening practice.

I have had patients who developed severe esophageal ulcerations caused by pills which remained in the esophagus too long. Just two weeks ago one of my patients had to be hospitalized and transfused several units of blood because he often would take his medications without drinking fluids. The pills in question did not contain Hydrochloric acid.

On another note, normal acidity of the stomach does not cause a burning sensation. I would be very concerned if anything you eat or drink causes a burning sensation. If there is in fact some HCL in those pills the patients may be developing gastritis (small erosions or ulcerations of the gastric mucosa).

I would love to perform and Esophogastro Duodenoscopy on these clients after they have ingested 5-6 HCL pills and felt a burn. Pass the Maalox please.

Poliquin wrote: Most people achieve normal levels within eight weeks even when they start at seven capsules, but some individuals take as much as 18 months. I have two clients who need two caps a day permanently. Why? Because neither one will ever escape their stress levels (one of them is a real estate mogul and the other is a highly accomplished author). Make sure that your HCL product also contains the probiotic pepsin and the digestive enzymes papain and pancreatin, as they have a synergistic effect with HCL therapy.

Giarnella MD: How would taking HCL pills restore the stomach ability to produce acid in 8 weeks or even 18 months?

Furthermore there is no evidence that stress causes achlorhydria. On the contrary under certain circumstances, which I will not elaborate here, extreme stress can cause stress ulcerations. Patients in the Intensive Care Units are often given acid suppressant drugs to prevent these stress ulcers.

Unless you suffer from chronic pancreatitis or small bowel disease such as Chron�??�?�¢??s disease there is not need for digestive enzymes. Just another useless supplement.

Poliquin wrote: In addition to the above HCL protocols, here are a few other suggestions to normalize your stomach acid levels. First, avoid carbonated drinks.

Second, avoid all-you-can-eat buffets, as they’re America’s leading source of food-borne pathogens. Finally, there are numerous herbs that can contribute to raising HCL, such as gentian, peppermint, and ginger, but
be aware that very few controlled studies exist on this topic.

I believe this is so important that my clients aren’t given a supplement program until they get an HCL test. Remember, not only are you what you eat, you are what you assimilate!

Giarnella MD: Gastric acid and Pepsin are not critical to the digestion or absorption of foods.

Poliquin wrote: One of the folks I’m training is a 77 year old male, a vegetarian for most of his adult life. His energy has been in a terrible fix for some months now, along with waking nightly with back and hip pain - so bad he was hooked on pain killers for a short spell.

Giarnella MD: This poor old man probably suffers from severe osteoporosis or severe degenerative joint disease neither of which is associated with the presence or absence of acid in the stomach.

Poliquin wrote: Vegetarian diets are notorious for leading to anemia due to loss of production of stomach acid resulting in inability to metabolize folic acid to B-12 and mineral absorption. This man has found relief with B-12 injections resulting in loss of pain and uninterrupted night sleep.

Giarnella MD: This last one is another false statement based on his obvious lack of knowledge of nutrition and physiology of the GI tract.

The stomach produces a substance called Intrinsic factor. Intrinsic factor is not related to acid production. Intrinsic factor is needed for the proper absorption of B12

However there is a condition often seen in the elderly called atrophic gastritis which causes a decrease in all the substances produced by the stomach including Intrinsic factor.

Just as we lose our hair and our skin wrinkles as we age so to the cells of the intestine gradually atrophy. It is called the aging factor. Like it or not there is a programmed slow cell death in all cells. No one lives forever.

Back to the atrophic gastritis. In this condition there is a concomitant decrease in production of all substances usually produced by these cells. Intrinsic factor, as I stated previously is not dependent on acid for its function, but it is necessary to facilitate the absorption of B12 in the distal part of the intestine called the ileum.

There is a saying that always rings true: A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing - Captain Queeg, The Caine Mutiny (1954).

I was a little puzzled by that saying when I first heard it as a youngster but after reflection I realized the truthfulness of the saying.

Some people who learn a little about a subject think they know all there is to know and make bad judgments based on their limited knowledge.

I prefer the following: The more I learn, the more I realize how little I really know - author unknown.
[/quote]

Have you got a link for the source?

[quote]BlakedaMan wrote:
Poliquin has definitely been known to make some absurd claims. In one article I remember he claimed that people who work with him progress 57% faster (I’m not sure of the exact number)…He gave an exact percentage, as if that was somehow a claim that could be substantiated. Pushharder also often jokes about his comment about gaining something like 10 pounds of muscle and losing 3% bodyfat in a few days by eating Dominican fruits.

Like SkyNett said, the dude might be a good strength coach, but he doesn’t know dick about physiology or biochemistry.

I disagree with the author of the rebuttal about digestive enzymes being a useless supplement, though. I’ve used digestive enzymes and things like acidophilus and noticed legit improvements. He seems to be the opposite end of the spectrum - an MD that only considers scientifically substantiated ailments (and I’m not saying that as a slight against him, I’m just pointing it out).

Good find OP.[/quote]

Well, a lot of digestive enzyme products include useless shit that can really mess with your stomach…
HCL being one of these added things.

I’ll take some Bromelain over any of the other stuff any day… And I agree with you that such things aren’t useless, especially for guys with a crazy high food intake.

That doctor either did not consider 250+ pound bodybuilders (regular guy eating 2000 cals a day doesn’t need digestive enzymes) or he is talking about the combination products.

As for Poliquin… Well, my opinion on him is no secret.

/edited

I was going to reply in one of the articles that was posted a few months back about how great HCL is blah blah blah.

I to have done a BioSig course (as well as his Level 1) and for 2yrs was taking HCL with every meat-based meal.

In Jan 2009 I stopped this completely. For a whole year I’ve not had one digestive enzyme in supplement form be it with or without HCL.

I seem to have no issues absorbing the protein I eat; which I should clarify and say that as of 2009 I seriously cut down on animal protein intake. My protein intake is mainly vegetable based and supplemented with plant protein powders like rice, pea & hemp. Some may argue that HCL is thus not needed by me. Perhaps that is true. But I still feel the whole HCL thing is a lot of crap and actually rather dangerous.

I also think the Paleo diet that is espoused by Poliquin is crap too (but that’s for another thread).

With regards to my training, strength etc I am stronger than ever and imo from a subjective stand point healthier than ever (digestion is better, my skin is better and I feel [well-being wise] better). Sure, I train smart so would hope to be stronger. But cutting out the HCL has not caused me to lose muscle or size. I’m never gonna be massive due to my natural size and the fact I’ve not used (and never will use) AAS. But I can honestly say that the 2yrs I used HCl it didn’t do anything amazing for me. And I used Poliquin branded products.

Now, this is totally my opinion based on my experience, knowledge & constant learning. As in life you make your own mind up based on a number of factors. I’m happy with my choices made thus far.

it does seem a large claim and going by the docs reply there are some serious errors in physiology. poliquin as a person I have found to be abit of a idiot, one lecturer i went to with him he basically became angry as soon as i questioned his protocols because there was such a wide variance in the modes he prescribed to achieve the same result and when i tried to enuire the underlying issues he just come across ‘how dare you question me!’

havign said that there are a large amount of medical professionals who have gone against in the trenches prescriptons for strength and size (protein intake, steroids not working etc etc) and ten years done the line we find there is some slight truth in it for a different mechanism

[quote]glend wrote:
it does seem a large claim and going by the docs reply there are some serious errors in physiology. poliquin as a person I have found to be abit of a idiot, one lecturer i went to with him he basically became angry as soon as i questioned his protocols because there was such a wide variance in the modes he prescribed to achieve the same result and when i tried to enuire the underlying issues he just come across ‘how dare you question me!’

havign said that there are a large amount of medical professionals who have gone against in the trenches prescriptons for strength and size (protein intake, steroids not working etc etc) and ten years done the line we find there is some slight truth in it for a different mechanism

[/quote]

Oh, there is no doubt that medicine was very late as far as steroids (the political influence to label these drugs as ineffective was likely the driving reason for all of those 1960’s studies somehow “proving” they don’t work). I remain skeptical as any educated person should be if they run across ONE study that shows one thing to be true. However, issues like describing where protein is digested isn’t up for discussion at this point. We know where it gets digested and most.

First I have to applaud the OP for this post and his honesty about the BioSignature as well.

And, glend brings up a good point as well. There unfortunately is a large gap between theory and application when it comes to the health and fitness industry. When I got my bachelors in Sports Med my Faculty advisor was the head of the program and a Exercise Phys professor. My intern work was done with the head S&C coach for the school. These guys agreed on NOTHING.

My entire time I was there for two years straight the only thing these two educated men agreed on was eat healthy and exercise. Granted I benefitted from seeing two sides of an argument. But these gaps are what make situations like the HCL supplement sales possible, as well as keep an industry I love from being taken seriously.

my 02.

Once again, great thread.

Lovely. Maybe people like CT, who already have a good reputation in their own fields, will stop quoting Poliquin’s silly nonsense about nutrition (at least, the more silly protocols like insulin, HCL, etc.) without running it by an actual medicial professional first.

I think it just hurts their credibility more when they parrot what another “guru” claims without verifying if the claims about physiology are accurate.

They should stick to what they know and stop sabotaging their own reputations.

Thanks for all the input to the thread,

Glend, you are spot on during our Biosig course Charles was very abrupt during the Q&A periods there wasnt a whole lot of opportunity for discussion. Could be due to time frames, but hey we started every morning at 10am.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

[quote]pradaboy wrote:
Whoah that’s a pretty clear annihilation of his entire article. Makes you wonder if the supps he sells are BS as well.[/quote]

Of course they are. The guy is an egotistical, close-minded prick who truly believes himself to be some sort of genius.

Yea - a genius who puts his clients on a dangerous protocol that may actually kill them.

Hilarious…

Now I’m just waiting for the retards to come in and explain how a respected doctor with a specialty in gastroenterology actually doesn’t know shit, and how college and med school are for assholes, because it’s the underground gurus who truly know the score.

Those stupid medical professionals…lol…[/quote]

We see it here daily. Apparently everyone who actually went to school for 10-20 years to get a DR in front their name is way dumber than personal trainers who misrepresent scientific studies and data.

I have yet to see the “genius” in this man’s writing. Maybe I’m simply missing it.

He seems to have the same complex that Mike Mentzer had…as if the fact that people find what he says ludicrous means that he is in fact ahead of everyone else intellectually. They don’t seem to grasp that it could also be because they don’t know what the hell they are talking about and make shit up constantly.

If you want to pretend to have the education and scientific background of a medical specialist, at least have the credentials to back that up.

Good for guys like that…there are TONS of clueless sheep out there who will still hang off his every word.[/quote]

poliquin tends to make unsupported and outrageous claims, but don’t think for a second that a medical degree is in any way a nutritional qualification.

most md’s don’t know anything - and i mean NOT A FUCKING THING - about nutrition. it is most often an elective in medical school curriculum, and it is an afterthought (3 or 4 credit hours, max) in schools were nutrition is required.

before anyone starts huffing and puffing at me, i do have doctor after my name. most of my nutritional knowledge was self-taught and researched for my dissertation. the vast majority my physician colleagues (and even some phds) are clueless about nutrition, still touting low-fat diets and the food pyramid idiocy.

1 Like

[quote]frederickson wrote:

poliquin tends to make unsupported and outrageous claims, but don’t think for a second that a medical degree is in any way a nutritional qualification.

most md’s don’t know anything - and i mean NOT A FUCKING THING - about nutrition. it is most often an elective in medical school curriculum, and it is an afterthought (3 or 4 credit hours, max) in schools were nutrition is required.

before anyone starts huffing and puffing at me, i do have doctor after my name. most of my nutritional knowledge was self-taught and researched for my dissertation. the vast majority my physician colleagues (and even some phds) are clueless about nutrition, still touting low-fat diets and the food pyramid idiocy.[/quote]

I’m currently in medical school. I can agree, medical school has so far taught me very little about nutrition and nothing beyond the food pyramid. However Poliquin is discussing biochemical and physiological aspects of digestion, and is obviously talking out of his ass. A nutritionist is most likely far more qualified to produce a sound dietary plan than I ever will be. However when it comes to understanding how the body works, doctors do have the upper-hand. Through our education we have the ability to read and comprehend the textbooks and studies that people like Poliquin obviously misinterpret.

I’m posting this to counteract the impression that people seem to have of doctors being clueless about nutrition, injury rehab, or anything else related to health for that matter. There is a reason we go to school for upwards of 10 years, and PT’s and nutritionists can get their “degrees” in a few months. We spend that time building a deep foundation that gives us the ability to speak authoritatively on most things having to do with the human body.

People are smart enough to realize their mechanic isn’t qualified to design a race car, and that the kid selling them concrete down at the Home Depot isn’t capable of building a skyscraper. But somehow everyone seems to believe that some nurse, the trainer at the gym, or some asshole on the internet knows more than a doctor would about the human body.

[quote]johnnychimpo wrote:

[quote]frederickson wrote:

poliquin tends to make unsupported and outrageous claims, but don’t think for a second that a medical degree is in any way a nutritional qualification.

most md’s don’t know anything - and i mean NOT A FUCKING THING - about nutrition. it is most often an elective in medical school curriculum, and it is an afterthought (3 or 4 credit hours, max) in schools were nutrition is required.

before anyone starts huffing and puffing at me, i do have doctor after my name. most of my nutritional knowledge was self-taught and researched for my dissertation. the vast majority my physician colleagues (and even some phds) are clueless about nutrition, still touting low-fat diets and the food pyramid idiocy.[/quote]

I’m currently in medical school. I can agree, medical school has so far taught me very little about nutrition and nothing beyond the food pyramid. However Poliquin is discussing biochemical and physiological aspects of digestion, and is obviously talking out of his ass. A nutritionist is most likely far more qualified to produce a sound dietary plan than I ever will be. However when it comes to understanding how the body works, doctors do have the upper-hand. Through our education we have the ability to read and comprehend the textbooks and studies that people like Poliquin obviously misinterpret.

I’m posting this to counteract the impression that people seem to have of doctors being clueless about nutrition, injury rehab, or anything else related to health for that matter. There is a reason we go to school for upwards of 10 years, and PT’s and nutritionists can get their “degrees” in a few months. We spend that time building a deep foundation that gives us the ability to speak authoritatively on most things having to do with the human body.

People are smart enough to realize their mechanic isn’t qualified to design a race car, and that the kid selling them concrete down at the Home Depot isn’t capable of building a skyscraper. But somehow everyone seems to believe that some nurse, the trainer at the gym, or some asshole on the internet knows more than a doctor would about the human body. [/quote]

Well said…and let me add that it isn’t that hard to LOOK and see if your doc has any clue about weight lifting or staying in shape. To the surprise of some here, I personally know at least 6 docs, two who went to school for DDS like I did, two who are mds who are serious weight lifters. By serious I mean more developed than many on this site.

I personally wouldn’t take advanced information about the inner workings of someone’s digestive tract from someone who had never gone to school and actually cut open a human body in a gross anatomy lab unless they had the supporting references to back up the statement.

I get the feeling that people simply believe all docs think the same. They are human. Just like there are tons of sedentary people without medical degrees, there are just as many who do have them. If they show no personal interest at all in training why would they know anything about supplements unless it had something to do directly with whatever disease or issue they were treating?

Personal trainers can be valuable to a lot of people, but the moment people start acting like true medical professionals should all be avoided in favor of listening to a guru who never had any sort of advanced medical training, it may be time to take a step back.

I know where protein gets digested because I have dissected and held a cadaver’s intestines in my hand and learned this info in significant detail (obviously not on the level of a SPECIALIST in the area). Someone who hasn’t done that needs some references to back up what they claim.

It also is the case that while it is hard to be able to say that a given statement in a highly specific part of some field is true unless expert in that very thing, when it’s a ludicrous statement then being able to say for sure that it is false is another thing.

Doctors generally may not be able to know whether various quite specific nutritional matters are true, as they may not have studied that highly specific question, but when the statement is utterly ludicrous they will quite ordinarily have the knowledge to know why it cannot possibly be true.

On top of that though, here we had a doctor who was in fact expert in the exact field in question.

This has been a very interesting thread for me, considering i was a biosig client last year and I am now booked in to do Poliquins Biosignature course in a couple of weeks.

First off I do think Poliquin does BS on some subjects. and i am not one of the people who worship his every word.

But i also think the man has an unbelievable knowledge of strength training and nutrition, and has contributed hugely to the industry. I mean you don’t just happen to coach however many Olympic gold medal winning athletes he has unless you know your stuff.

Whether his HCL supplement is bogus? i don’t know. But i do honestly believe biosignature and the supps with it works and works well.

MY BIOSIG EXPERIENCE

The reason im doing this course is because my own results with biosig were so great and i want to learn it for myself and for my future career as trainer/strength coach.

I saw a local biosig practitioner weekly and did a training, diet and supplementation protocol outlined by my biosig guy and in 10 weeks I went from…

211 at 15.4% bodyfat to
213 pounds at 8.5% bodyfat.

which works out to be a loss of 14.5 pounds of fat WITH a simultaneous gain of 16.5 pounds muscle/leanmass.

and my training and diet was good before i started. i actually trained more before i did the biosig and ate LESS food during the biosig because my main goal was fatloss but i still put on weight overall.

also the skinfold reductions at specific areas in relation to the supps i was taking blew my mind. For example my biggest problem was low test so my main supps were zinc and DIM (extract from broccoli and such and is meant to be a natural anti aromatose to stop test converting to estrogen) and my tricep skinfold (indicator for test) went down the most over the 10 weeks (11mm down to 5mm)

another example at one stage my calf measurement was high indicating bad sleep and Growth hormone. so i focused on going to bed and waking up at the same time every day, which i did anyway. As well as taking reishi mushroom extract (help relax and goto sleep) as well as having a simple teaspoon of glutamine before bed and upon waking (apparently helps GH output).

TBH i didnt think these would do anything but in ONE week my calf measurement went from 7mm down to 4mm.

also at the end of the 10 weeks i had such greater well being and energy than when i started.

I think the reason i trusted my biosig guy so much and the reason i had such good results is because my biosig guy didnt push the poliquin supplements on me. i did use probably 6 of them (all of which i thought were good quality)

but he also tried to give me other cheaper methods to achieve the same results as the supps to save me money. Like having cinnamon and apple cidar vinegar drink (In Tmuslce contributor Dr Johnny Bowden’s book i believe, and worked very well in reducing my suprailliac skin fold) before meals to help manage insulin instead of using charles fenuplex and insulemics. and also the glutamine before bed and upon waking.

I dont know enough about digestion to say legitimately, but it does look like that HCL article of Charles’ had a lot of holes in it and that rebuttal mauled him pretty good.

But I still think most of his stuff including Biosignature is very useful for us gym goers to use to help us achieve our goals.

that just my 0.02

1 Like

[quote]brentcozi wrote:
another example at one stage my calf measurement was high indicating bad sleep and Growth hormone. so i focused on going to bed and waking up at the same time every day, which i did anyway. As well as taking reishi mushroom extract (help relax and goto sleep) as well as having a simple teaspoon of glutamine before bed and upon waking (apparently helps GH output).
[/quote]

Wait, what? You determined that your calf measurement tells you about your gh output???

What the hell does this mean and where did you find this information about calf measurements telling you about GH output?

What references show this to be the case?

Sorry, but you did not gain 16.5 lbs of muscle in 10 weeks time, especially if you’re a non-beginner and you weren’t very overfat…unless you were severely detrained.

What people keep misconstruing is the difference between LBM and muscle.

LBM is muscle, WATER, glycogen, connective tissue. To say you went up by 10 lbs LBM does NOT necessarily mean that you gained 10 lbs of pure muscle.

You probably gained mostly water, possibly some muscle and probably some glycogen.

We need to establish an accepted method for tracking progress, such as pictures (same outfit, lighting, distance to camera) AND hydrostatic. I don’t accept people that say, “Well, I used a 7 site skinfold test BUT I really trust the guy who did it!” That doesn’t mean shit. You could be subjective yourself by virtue of it being YOUR body we’re talking about.

Very funny stuff, I remember questioning Poliquins recommendation regarding fish oil a few years ago and being roundly attacked by some of the Poliquin followers. It just doesn’t make sense to me to take 50-60 grams of fish oil per day. He may be a great trainer, as he’s certainly had some sound training advice through the years and he’s obviously trained some very successful athletes. But, when it comes to nutrition I would double check everything that he says.

So what do people here think about using a digestive enzyme supplement?

I use a complete enzyme supplement that contains HCL among other things (low level 200), and am now left wondering whether or not it should be used?

The same problem holds true in the case of hormonal replacement therapy. There are people in the “Over 35 Lifter” forum that believe they’re truly experts in all things having to do with the male reproductive and endocrine system.

I’ve had hypogonadism for over 8 years and see an andrologist - a urologist with a fellowship in andrology. The guy I go to is considered one of the foremost experts in his field in all of New York, and if you look him up on the web and in Pub Med, it’s clear that he has done a shitload of work and studying in his field. He’s actually competent in a rare surgical technique for vasectomy.

I described the medicine he has prescribed me for my condition, and there is actually a person on there that referred to andrologists as a whole as “trained monkeys” in regards to their prescription of Androgel for hypogonadism.

According to dipshits on the internet and in that forum, people who spend their entire early adulthood in some of the most prestigious and innovative universities and hospitals don’t know how to take care of the conditions for which they were trained to do so.

Nutrition advice is one thing. In most cases, the advice won’t kill you. But advising people on medicine through the net when one isn’t even a trained medical professional, and having people follow the advice by obtaining drugs through the black market or otherwise (outside of the medical community) is fucking scary!