Reassessing the 'Bodyweight' Exercises

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:

[quote]myonlyvice wrote:

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Out of curiosity, what are your lifts? Weight?[/quote]

My best powerlifts, which were far from world class, were 310 bench, 440 squat, 550 dl @185 lbs. They were done raw and drug free obviously. No wraps or belts of any kind, just chalk.

Why do you accuse me of trolling, whatever that means? It doesn’t seem very complimentary. [/quote]

lol you have not been around the internet much if you dont know what trolling means.

Reason I ask is I was curious as to how developed you were that bodyweight lifts were no longer helping you.

I think the problem here is partially the way you worded your question, and partially the point you are tryin to make. You state that you can put chains on your back and do bodyweight dips, but you cant add chains to your bodyweight on the bench and do the same amount of reps. Frankly, its not even close to the same thing. Your entire bodyweight is not being used when doing dips, while on the bench you are (should you add your bodyweight to the bar).

Pullups, dips, etc are all very beneficial to powerlifting NOT because they directly add weight to the bar BUT because they strengthen the muscles that perform the powerlifts AND they can add literal size and train your endurance, both of which lead to larger lifts on the Big 3.

For example, in his powerlifting days, Matt Kroc consistently used pullups, both bodyweight and with added weight to consistently make his back stronger and therefore his bench consistently bigger. I would say he is a seasoned lifter.

FTR - Best all time lifts - 700lb squat, 455lb bench, and 655lb deadlift, all single ply [/quote]

You may be technically correct in saying that you aren’t lifting your entire bodyweight when performing a dip as the hands remain virtually motionless and the lower arm is not moving exactly up and down but obliquely. But this leaves what, maybe 97% of your overall bodyweight that is being moved (not to mention any added weight)? It’s almost negligible the amount in question but go ahead and subtract this resistance from the dip if you wish. It hasn’t really changed anything. The fact still remains that certain people, like me, can perform dips with a greatly disproportionate amount of weight compared to any angle of bench press.
I have gotten stronger at dips but not experienced an increase in my bench press. I have gotten stronger at weighted pullups but not performend any better in the bench or deadlift. How can this be? The two groups, bodyweight and barbell, clearly cannot be working in lockstep as you seem to be suggesting. It is not as simple for ME anymore in my own training as getting stronger at a bodyweight movement and expecting a comensurate strength increase in a powerlifting movement. I wish it were. A beginning lifter can expect such lockstep progress to a degree but after years and years a lifter must rely on accessory lifts that much more closely mimic and resemble the actual contest lift if it’s the contest lift that they wish to get stronger at. I have my suspicions that the bodyweight lifts are just too different from the big three in their execution to be of any further value to me as far as helping me get stronger at the big three.
That Kroc got very strong at weighted pullups I have no doubt. But to make the leap of this having a significant and direct impact on his bench press capabilities I seriously doubt. I mean the bench and pullup are in two completely different planes of movement for crying out loud. I’m telling you from personal experience that it does NOT work like that, at least for me. Regardless you’re speaking about somebody other than yourself. How can you speak for Kroc with any authority? I want to know about you. First of all have you been lifting for over 10 years without a break? If so, can you go back and look at one of your RECENT workout journals and find any evidence for getting stronger at a bodyweight movement leading to or initiating getting stronger at one of the powerlifts? If you can I’ll just have to concede that your body is very different than mine.

And props to you my friend for those lifts. You are very strong.

22

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]myonlyvice wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]myonlyvice wrote:

It seems like only barbell training renders strength gains that benefit powerlifing.[/quote]
No, training the big 3 renders TECHNICAL gains that benefit powerlifting. Anything else is assistance to build your lifts and the muscle that will support them. How you decide to build them should be dependent on what has been shown to work for you. You’ll never know what works for you if you don’t try different stuff. Use a little bit of common sense though. Obviously 200 pushupsÃ???Ã??Ã? =/= 400 bench.[/quote]

For a beginner everything works, as you probably know. A powerlifter with ~5 years or less experience can and should most definitely build his strength base by performing bodyweight exercises (+ added weight). Obviously this will carry over to his achieving bigger numbers in the powerlifts. However it seems to me that as a powerlifter progresses in his development he will derive less and less carryover to the powerlifts from his bodyweight exercises (+ added weight). I’m astounded nobody here has experienced this, if not observed it in others. Surely there are people here who qualify as “seasoned” lifters, aren’t there? [/quote]
Hmmm you definitely missed my point. The experience of the lifter is irrelevant to what I stated. CG bench is my best indicator for bench and weighted dips build up my chest, triceps, and delts to make my bench stronger. Why would something stop working for you simply because you got stronger? Something that gives you gains as a noob =/= something that works for you.[/quote]

I don’t think I missed your point but I think you might be missing the bigger picture. I’m trying to work through the argument that bodyweight exercises for powerlifters, advanced powerlifters in particular, are not effective at increasing numbers in the big three. Kinesthetically speaking, none of the bodyweight lifts have much in common with the powerlifts. You’re dealing with very dissimilar movement patterns. A veteran lifter who already has a well-established strength base would be much better served by staying with movements that more closely resemble the contest movements. At least this is what 22 years of lifting has lead ME to conclude. Getting stronger at dips and pullups and getting stronger at the powerlifts are not the same thing, and for a veteran lifter they aren’t even in the same ballpark.

Personally, I love the bodyweight lifts, I still practice them with great vigor, and I did at one time derive good strength gains from them that helped me build the powerlifts. It sounds like you still might be deriving useable stregth gains from them. If so, this is great. However, those days for me are long gone now. I’m trying to understand why and a lifter’s experience has everything to do with it. It is far from irrelevant. You ask the age-old question: “Why would something stop working for you simply because you got stronger?” In other words “Why would something stop working when it had previously worked so well?” Who really knows why but, when it comes to training, it’s universally true that nothing works forever. The body adapts to EVERYTHING, as you already know. For many reasons, it seems to me that the body of a seasoned powerlifter is not in a position to derive strength gains from bodyweight lifts that can be readily applied to his powerlifting. The “why” is complicated but I am confident that this is true.

23

[quote]myonlyvice wrote:

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:

[quote]myonlyvice wrote:

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Out of curiosity, what are your lifts? Weight?[/quote]

My best powerlifts, which were far from world class, were 310 bench, 440 squat, 550 dl @185 lbs. They were done raw and drug free obviously. No wraps or belts of any kind, just chalk.

Why do you accuse me of trolling, whatever that means? It doesn’t seem very complimentary. [/quote]

lol you have not been around the internet much if you dont know what trolling means.

Reason I ask is I was curious as to how developed you were that bodyweight lifts were no longer helping you.

I think the problem here is partially the way you worded your question, and partially the point you are tryin to make. You state that you can put chains on your back and do bodyweight dips, but you cant add chains to your bodyweight on the bench and do the same amount of reps. Frankly, its not even close to the same thing. Your entire bodyweight is not being used when doing dips, while on the bench you are (should you add your bodyweight to the bar).

Pullups, dips, etc are all very beneficial to powerlifting NOT because they directly add weight to the bar BUT because they strengthen the muscles that perform the powerlifts AND they can add literal size and train your endurance, both of which lead to larger lifts on the Big 3.

For example, in his powerlifting days, Matt Kroc consistently used pullups, both bodyweight and with added weight to consistently make his back stronger and therefore his bench consistently bigger. I would say he is a seasoned lifter.

FTR - Best all time lifts - 700lb squat, 455lb bench, and 655lb deadlift, all single ply [/quote]

You may be technically correct in saying that you aren’t lifting your entire bodyweight when performing a dip as the hands remain virtually motionless and the lower arm is not moving exactly up and down but obliquely. But this leaves what, maybe 97% of your overall bodyweight that is being moved (not to mention any added weight)? It’s almost negligible the amount in question but go ahead and subtract this resistance from the dip if you wish. It hasn’t really changed anything. The fact still remains that certain people, like me, can perform dips with a greatly disproportionate amount of weight compared to any angle of bench press.
I have gotten stronger at dips but not experienced an increase in my bench press. I have gotten stronger at weighted pullups but not performend any better in the bench or deadlift. How can this be? The two groups, bodyweight and barbell, clearly cannot be working in lockstep as you seem to be suggesting. It is not as simple for ME anymore in my own training as getting stronger at a bodyweight movement and expecting a comensurate strength increase in a powerlifting movement. I wish it were. A beginning lifter can expect such lockstep progress to a degree but after years and years a lifter must rely on accessory lifts that much more closely mimic and resemble the actual contest lift if it’s the contest lift that they wish to get stronger at. I have my suspicions that the bodyweight lifts are just too different from the big three in their execution to be of any further value to me as far as helping me get stronger at the big three.
That Kroc got very strong at weighted pullups I have no doubt. But to make the leap of this having a significant and direct impact on his bench press capabilities I seriously doubt. I mean the bench and pullup are in two completely different planes of movement for crying out loud. I’m telling you from personal experience that it does NOT work like that, at least for me. Regardless you’re speaking about somebody other than yourself. How can you speak for Kroc with any authority? I want to know about you. First of all have you been lifting for over 10 years without a break? If so, can you go back and look at one of your RECENT workout journals and find any evidence for getting stronger at a bodyweight movement leading to or initiating getting stronger at one of the powerlifts? If you can I’ll just have to concede that your body is very different than mine.

And props to you my friend for those lifts. You are very strong. [/quote]

How does pullups increase your bench? Really? Big Back = Big Bench.

Nope, cant say I have been lifting for over 10 years. Im round year 6 if you want to get technical.

For me, yeah, getting better at the bodyweight lifts has helped the powerlifts, and I am not a beginner.

24

[quote]myonlyvice wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]myonlyvice wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]myonlyvice wrote:

It seems like only barbell training renders strength gains that benefit powerlifing.[/quote]
No, training the big 3 renders TECHNICAL gains that benefit powerlifting. Anything else is assistance to build your lifts and the muscle that will support them. How you decide to build them should be dependent on what has been shown to work for you. You’ll never know what works for you if you don’t try different stuff. Use a little bit of common sense though. Obviously 200 pushupsÃ???Ã???Ã??Ã? =/= 400 bench.[/quote]

For a beginner everything works, as you probably know. A powerlifter with ~5 years or less experience can and should most definitely build his strength base by performing bodyweight exercises (+ added weight). Obviously this will carry over to his achieving bigger numbers in the powerlifts. However it seems to me that as a powerlifter progresses in his development he will derive less and less carryover to the powerlifts from his bodyweight exercises (+ added weight). I’m astounded nobody here has experienced this, if not observed it in others. Surely there are people here who qualify as “seasoned” lifters, aren’t there? [/quote]
Hmmm you definitely missed my point. The experience of the lifter is irrelevant to what I stated. CG bench is my best indicator for bench and weighted dips build up my chest, triceps, and delts to make my bench stronger. Why would something stop working for you simply because you got stronger? Something that gives you gains as a noob =/= something that works for you.[/quote]

I don’t think I missed your point but I think you might be missing the bigger picture. I’m trying to work through the argument that bodyweight exercises for powerlifters, advanced powerlifters in particular, are not effective at increasing numbers in the big three. Kinesthetically speaking, none of the bodyweight lifts have much in common with the powerlifts. You’re dealing with very dissimilar movement patterns. A veteran lifter who already has a well-established strength base would be much better served by staying with movements that more closely resemble the contest movements. At least this is what 22 years of lifting has lead ME to conclude. Getting stronger at dips and pullups and getting stronger at the powerlifts are not the same thing, and for a veteran lifter they aren’t even in the same ballpark.

Personally, I love the bodyweight lifts, I still practice them with great vigor, and I did at one time derive good strength gains from them that helped me build the powerlifts. It sounds like you still might be deriving useable stregth gains from them. If so, this is great. However, those days for me are long gone now. I’m trying to understand why and a lifter’s experience has everything to do with it. It is far from irrelevant. You ask the age-old question: “Why would something stop working for you simply because you got stronger?” In other words “Why would something stop working when it had previously worked so well?” Who really knows why but, when it comes to training, it’s universally true that nothing works forever. The body adapts to EVERYTHING, as you already know. For many reasons, it seems to me that the body of a seasoned powerlifter is not in a position to derive strength gains from bodyweight lifts that can be readily applied to his powerlifting. The “why” is complicated but I am confident that this is true. [/quote]

I agree with most of what you said. I feel the lines of the discussion would’ve been much more clear had your full thesis been stated initially. Nobody said getting a stronger at dips and pullups will immediately translate to a bigger total. What was stated is IF those lifts are effective at building your main lifts then do them.

At that point, it’s not about improving skill in a movement but developing the muscle that supports it. The reason I stated that training age was irrelevant was because the question regarding the assessment of whether bodyweight exercises are conducive to improving the big 3 was posed generally and not with respect to a particular cohort.

There’s a near endless array of variables that skew and modify training effects. Personally after having more than doubled my strength since the beginning, I find the same things still work for me. I think people just either don’t have a fundamental grasp of why some things worked or misinterpret the relationships between different stimuli and training effects. Nothing personal though bro. I think you kind of threw me off initially with the new stuff you threw in.

25

Almost all the responses are TL:DR, but I think bodyweight exercises kick ass for a variety of things.

  1. If you are decent at them they can be trained very frequently without much negative feedback.

  2. If you suck at them they can be used to strength training.

  3. They can be loaded with weights to make them harder.

  4. They can be modified to make it a harder movement.

  5. They can be used for explosive training as well as muscular endurance and hypertrophy as well as assist with strength. They can even be used in a circuit for a conditioning workout that is easy to recover from.

  6. They are great for building tendon strength.

Obviously if they don’t help you don’t use them, however I think the vast majority of people could benefit to use bodyweight exercises more often (especially GHRs and pullups). Its kind of sad when I see huge dudes that can squat 800lbs and bench in the 600s but cant even do a single pullup, dip, or GHR. Relative strength is an often overlooked aspect of strength training these days. Everyone is so obsessed with getting their totals up that people tend to turn into fat, unathletic peaces of shit strong enough to move a bar but can barely push themselves out of bed in the morning.

I apologize for getting on a rant about fat people, but I think you guys get the point.

26

[quote]myonlyvice wrote:

Personally, I love the bodyweight lifts, I still practice them with great vigor, and I did at one time derive good strength gains from them that helped me build the powerlifts. It sounds like you still might be deriving useable stregth gains from them. If so, this is great. However, those days for me are long gone now. I’m trying to understand why and a lifter’s experience has everything to do with it. It is far from irrelevant. You ask the age-old question: “Why would something stop working for you simply because you got stronger?” In other words “Why would something stop working when it had previously worked so well?” Who really knows why but, when it comes to training, it’s universally true that nothing works forever. The body adapts to EVERYTHING, as you already know. For many reasons, it seems to me that the body of a seasoned powerlifter is not in a position to derive strength gains from bodyweight lifts that can be readily applied to his powerlifting. The “why” is complicated but I am confident that this is true. [/quote]

You seem to contradict yourself here. First your saying seasoned lifters need to perform movements more similar to the powerlifts in order to elicit the desired strength gains; however, then you go on to say how the body adapts to everything. I think everyone on this board is going to agree with the later statement. If this is the case wouldn’t veteran lifters get less gains from performing similar movements again and again? whether this is referring to a weighted body weight exercise or a barbell exercise I would argue that veteran lifters need greater variance in training than beginnners who are establishing effective movement patterns in the powerlifts.

Now, that aside. In order for a big bench, you need strong triceps, chest and back. Logically in order to improve your bench you need to improve these muscle groups. Everyone being different, you must find the best exercises to make these areas stronger. Based on physiology and leverages everyones ‘perfect’ exercise is going to be slightly different. Going back to what I said earlier, however, veteran lifters are going to have to challenge themselves in a greater variety of ways to strengthen these areas as they are well adapted to the standard barbell movements. If weighted bodyweight exercises make your weak muscles stronger I find it hard to believe this is of no benefit to the competition lifts. Obviously bodyweight exercises are not going to replace the powerlifts as the most important part in training but I think they have value as accessory movements without a doubt.

Also also saying GHRs are not effective…

My next question is are your powerlifts improving during your training today? You say you continue to do bodyweight exercises as part of your program. If your lifts continue to improve how are you able to say that they have zero benefit to improving your lifts? as small a benefit you may be receiving from them surely every bit counts. Whether it is do to increase hypertrophy, GPP, or increased myo cross bridging you’ll never fully know.

27

If you can do planche push-ups you should be able to bench close to 2x BW… without having previously benched…

28

[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:
If you can do planche push-ups you should be able to bench close to 2x BW… without having previously benched…[/quote]

My good friend has a great planche. We tested his bench one day… Aside from the fact that he had no clue how to use his legs (exclusive gymnasts have worse legs than emo hipsters) or get into proper position, he was capable of benching 345 at a bodyweight of 170. No bench training, ALL upper body, crap technique. It was pretty ridiculous.

This said, I don’t think the planche has as much transfer to the bench as you seem to be suggesting. For one thing, a proper gymnastics planche is performed on the fingertips and is a balance, so the musculature of the forearms is behaving completely differently. A rings planche might be closer, but not by much. I will concede that the front delt strength needed to planche is going to dramatically improve a bencher’s ability off the chest, but I think the transfer ends there.

I have found in my experience performing both gymanstics/acrobatics and powerlifting the following transfers:

  • Back lever → Deadlift; lower back strength (Transfer = Medium-High)
  • Planche → Bench Press; Delt strength (Transfer: Medium)
  • Front lever → Bench Press; upper back strength (Transfer: Low-Medium)
  • Forward Somersaulting → Deadlift/Squat; Lower body explosiveness (Transfer=High)
29

[quote]animus wrote:

[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:
If you can do planche push-ups you should be able to bench close to 2x BW… without having previously benched…[/quote]

My good friend has a great planche. We tested his bench one day… Aside from the fact that he had no clue how to use his legs (exclusive gymnasts have worse legs than emo hipsters) or get into proper position, he was capable of benching 345 at a bodyweight of 170. No bench training, ALL upper body, crap technique. It was pretty ridiculous.

This said, I don’t think the planche has as much transfer to the bench as you seem to be suggesting. For one thing, a proper gymnastics planche is performed on the fingertips and is a balance, so the musculature of the forearms is behaving completely differently. A rings planche might be closer, but not by much. I will concede that the front delt strength needed to planche is going to dramatically improve a bencher’s ability off the chest, but I think the transfer ends there.

I have found in my experience performing both gymanstics/acrobatics and powerlifting the following transfers:

  • Back lever → Deadlift; lower back strength (Transfer = Medium-High)
  • Planche → Bench Press; Delt strength (Transfer: Medium)
  • Front lever → Bench Press; upper back strength (Transfer: Low-Medium)
  • Forward Somersaulting → Deadlift/Squat; Lower body explosiveness (Transfer=High)[/quote]
    Cool
30

[quote]myonlyvice wrote:
Which, if any, “bodyweight” exercises (pushup, pullup, dip, GHR, hyperextension, etc.) can make you a better squatter, deadlifter, bench presser, overhead presser, etc.? I’m not limiting them to just bodyweight either; strap as much weight to your body as you want while performing them.

Are any bodyweight exercises really that effective at improving one’s performance in the big 3? I’m starting to believe that, as useful as these movements can be for improving overall strength and fitness, for reasons I don’t understand they do very little to make one a better powerlifter.

It seems like only barbell training renders strength gains that benefit powerlifing. MAYBE GHRs are an exception but I’m not certain. Does anybody else have similar suspicions? [/quote]

Hang on there… BW exercises are fundamentally a different type of movement because of their activation pattern. Take the bench press vs. pushup or handstand pushup vs. overhead. This is their utility (for power lifters) is that they allow for changing recruitment patterns so you can maybe increase loading that way. Unilateral exercises (pistols, Bulgarian split-squats, one-legged (suitcase) deads, one-legged RDLs…) fall into the same heading. There the loading is similar to powerlifting, but again the pattern is different.

My favorite uses are as accessory exercises. For instance now I am doiing heavy deads followed by single-legged RDLs. Heavy benches followed by feet-elevated pushups with a 55 lb. vest on. External weight is just fine, IMHO, just learn how to count.

So for instance, a standard squat at 1.5 BW means total you are moving 2.5 times BW = you + load, i.e., 1.25 BW per foot. Try pistols with .25 BW (in my case I weight 180, so that is 45 lbs.) You will feel that for sure. Squats will feel stronger because of all the stabilization needed to do pistols. If you lack mobility to do pistols, try Bulgarian split squats with the same load. No cheating with the back leg…

Now, that said, I’m mostly a martial artist and this means explosive bodyweight movements. A lot of people who run into these because they take an MAA class or two see that they are hard and will make you very strong indeed. But, explosive movements are not what powerlifters need. I do both so I can open my big fat mouth and tell people what I think, 'k? They are excellent accessory movements, add a different recruitment pattern that can help boost your lifting and also can keep loads high (e.g. one-legged suitcase deads) on part of you (legs) while other parts of you (back) can recover. They are also darned hard (one-armed pushups anyone? Try 'em with a handclap) if you do them right.

– jj

PS. There is ONE set of bodyweight exericises that do have a lot of carry over to powerlifting, now that I think of it: isometric core moves, so dragonflies and SB pikes totally rock at getting you a solid core. Again though, I’m a geezer (51) so I need to really overdo back & core stabilization if I’m going to keep lifting.

31

I can see where you are coming from when i first took an interest in training at 16 a few buddies and i invented the push up game. We take a deck of cards and take turns pulling a card the number on the card indicated the number of push-ups. After a while we started to get good at it and we made it harder, like anything 10 and below was automatically 20 pushups and an Ace was 50. (everything else in between).

Any way we did this almost every day for almost 6 months. My pushup endurance was great as i was pumping out 500+ push-ups a day. Then one day over a freinds house i benched for the first time and at 185 pushed 135 3 times. Clearly while i gained some strength from the pushups it didnt really translate to my bench.

32

[quote]GruntOrama wrote:
Almost all the responses are TL:DR, but I think bodyweight exercises kick ass for a variety of things.

  1. If you are decent at them they can be trained very frequently without much negative feedback.

  2. If you suck at them they can be used to strength training.

  3. They can be loaded with weights to make them harder.

  4. They can be modified to make it a harder movement.

Yea pull ups help me keep my weight in check. I gained 5 lbs but had a pull up rep max increase of 2 (from15-17). So i feel if i gain weight as long as my bodyweight stuff improves i know im gaining more muscle than fat.

  1. They can be used for explosive training as well as muscular endurance and hypertrophy as well as assist with strength. They can even be used in a circuit for a conditioning workout that is easy to recover from.

  2. They are great for building tendon strength.

Obviously if they don’t help you don’t use them, however I think the vast majority of people could benefit to use bodyweight exercises more often (especially GHRs and pullups). Its kind of sad when I see huge dudes that can squat 800lbs and bench in the 600s but cant even do a single pullup, dip, or GHR. Relative strength is an often overlooked aspect of strength training these days. Everyone is so obsessed with getting their totals up that people tend to turn into fat, unathletic peaces of shit strong enough to move a bar but can barely push themselves out of bed in the morning.

I apologize for getting on a rant about fat people, but I think you guys get the point.[/quote]

33

Most if not all of my assistance work is bodyweight exercises. You know you can add external load, so the exercise gets harder and thus making me progress.

What a novel idea

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