Reason for Geared Powerlifting?

michael_xyz · May 2, 2012, 1:29pm

[quote]frankjl wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Good point StrengthDawg although I do think about things like they have better shoes, the jump-off thing at the start (don’t know name) and other things I’m sure. It all does help.

I know it’s just the progression of the sport which is fine. But it’s progression - usually - in a negative way. Too much multi-ply lifting means high squats which is ridiculous. I don’t know if the rules are different for the depth needed to hit but… come on, we all know it’s high. Now someone might say that’s progression of the sport and they don’t feel beat up if they half squat but there’s a fine line when you have to just stop and think “Come on, this is stupid”.

Not saying all geared lifters lift high but I’d say in general you see a lot more high squats with multi-ply lifters than raw.[/quote]

It is possible to squat to legal depth in multi-ply gear. In my opinion some organizations have made it acceptable to blatantly squat high. But to say that gear leads to high squats is extremely short sighted. People squat to the depth they need to get white lights. If your organization is loose on the judging, and you know you can come up 3" high and get the lift passed, why would you bury yourself?

(No disrespect intended to any of us high-squatting multi-ply lifters.)[/quote]
As I made clear, not saying gear = high squats. But for sure you see it more often in gear than raw - no doubt about that.

You’re right though, the organisations are shitty and are allowing it and that’s their fault. To maintain the integrity of the sport though there is a need to put an end to it.

StrengthDawg · May 2, 2012, 1:42pm

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:
The biggest issue with geared powerlifting is that “world records” fall more rapidly in this sport than any other sport on the planet. Think about that for a second. How often does the 100m or 5000m world record get broken? How often does the raw bench record get broken? When new gear comes out records fall. I have drawn my own conclusions from this. [/quote]

you are in luck!! YOU sir can get a Metal Jack Squatter for $349 and a Jack shirt for $325 and break that world record!! haha

Seriously though, the raw lifting records get broken all the time too. in fact theres a thread on here about the guy benching 600something pounds raw. See for your self at PLwatch . com peeps break state record and national records all the time. Maybe reconsider your conclusions…

LiquidMercury · May 2, 2012, 1:45pm

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:
The biggest issue with geared powerlifting is that “world records” fall more rapidly in this sport than any other sport on the planet. Think about that for a second. How often does the 100m or 5000m world record get broken? How often does the raw bench record get broken? When new gear comes out records fall. I have drawn my own conclusions from this. [/quote]

you are in luck!! YOU sir can get a Metal Jack Squatter for $349 and a Jack shirt for $325 and break that world record!! haha

Seriously though, the raw lifting records get broken all the time too. in fact theres a thread on here about the guy benching 600something pounds raw. See for your self at PLwatch . com peeps break state record and national records all the time. Maybe reconsider your conclusions…
[/quote]

Part of this is because of the multiple federations/weight classes. Records get broken more often when there are effectively 500+ records that can be broken in the state/country/world due to all the feds and weight classes.

fattymcfatso · May 2, 2012, 2:15pm

[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:
The biggest issue with geared powerlifting is that “world records” fall more rapidly in this sport than any other sport on the planet. Think about that for a second. How often does the 100m or 5000m world record get broken? How often does the raw bench record get broken? When new gear comes out records fall. I have drawn my own conclusions from this. [/quote]

you are in luck!! YOU sir can get a Metal Jack Squatter for $349 and a Jack shirt for $325 and break that world record!! haha

Seriously though, the raw lifting records get broken all the time too. in fact theres a thread on here about the guy benching 600something pounds raw. See for your self at PLwatch . com peeps break state record and national records all the time. Maybe reconsider your conclusions…
[/quote]

Part of this is because of the multiple federations/weight classes. Records get broken more often when there are effectively 500+ records that can be broken in the state/country/world due to all the feds and weight classes.
[/quote]

I know. Another huge issue with the sport. I think it is funny when Laura Phelps Sweat can actually say she sqauts more than Mikhail Koklaev. Of course what she does not say is the vastly differnt conditions in wich the weight was “squatted”. That is the issue guys, when she did this interview all she said was she squatted 770.

Misha just squatted 750 in his last power meet. The only term she used was squat meaning they did the same lift, so does that mean that she is stronger than him? Who do you think is a better squatter. Maybe a better question would be this: if you could chose one of them to have to squat a car that had fallen on top of you who would you pick? I know who I would pick for sure.

I will let you in on who and why. I would pick Koklaev, and I would pick him because he is stronger than her.

For the record, the raw bench record has not been touched in 7 years. It was broken by 4 pounds from a record that stood for 8 years. So that is an improvement of 4 pounds total in 15 years. How much has the shirted bench record improved in 15 years?

heavythrower · May 2, 2012, 2:24pm

the only reason their is any “debate” at all, is the slow onset of extreme gear in PL over tha last 2 decades.

example, lets say at the upcoming London Olympics, some guy ends up breaking Rezza’s C&J record by 20% while wearing some sort of weird super thick super tight total body suit that his team has to lower him onto the platform with a crane.

everybody would laugh and not take it seriously at all. It would be a joke, and a bad one at that.

gear crept into the sport over a long period of time, the Genie has been let out and he is not going back into the lamp.

what I do like is many of the top guys are now competing in RAW and geared meets, and RAW competing is making a bit of a comeback. In other words, with few exceptions, the strongest are the strongest, regardless of fed or gear.

to me, it is too confusing to keep up with the top geared totals, as you always have to qualify what gear (single, double, triple) and what fed is being used.

for that reason I no longer keep up with the geared feds, I only follow the RAW totals.

to each his own, some people like formula one, others NASCAR, both have cars going really fucking fast.

heavythrower · May 2, 2012, 2:27pm

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:

[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:
The biggest issue with geared powerlifting is that “world records” fall more rapidly in this sport than any other sport on the planet. Think about that for a second. How often does the 100m or 5000m world record get broken? How often does the raw bench record get broken? When new gear comes out records fall. I have drawn my own conclusions from this. [/quote]

you are in luck!! YOU sir can get a Metal Jack Squatter for $349 and a Jack shirt for $325 and break that world record!! haha

Seriously though, the raw lifting records get broken all the time too. in fact theres a thread on here about the guy benching 600something pounds raw. See for your self at PLwatch . com peeps break state record and national records all the time. Maybe reconsider your conclusions…
[/quote]

Part of this is because of the multiple federations/weight classes. Records get broken more often when there are effectively 500+ records that can be broken in the state/country/world due to all the feds and weight classes.
[/quote]

I know. Another huge issue with the sport. I think it is funny when Laura Phelps Sweat can actually say she sqauts more than Mikhail Koklaev. Of course what she does not say is the vastly differnt conditions in wich the weight was “squatted”. That is the issue guys, when she did this interview all she said was she squatted 770.

Misha just squatted 750 in his last power meet. The only term she used was squat meaning they did the same lift, so does that mean that she is stronger than him? Who do you think is a better squatter. Maybe a better question would be this: if you could chose one of them to have to squat a car that had fallen on top of you who would you pick? I know who I would pick for sure.

I will let you in on who and why. I would pick Koklaev, and I would pick him because he is stronger than her.

For the record, the raw bench record has not been touched in 7 years. It was broken by 4 pounds from a record that stood for 8 years. So that is an improvement of 4 pounds total in 15 years. How much has the shirted bench record improved in 15 years? [/quote]

wow. that is really, well, poignant, for lack of a better word. puts things in quite the perspective.

StrengthDawg · May 2, 2012, 2:41pm

^^ I get what you are saying fatty but the facts is Laura squats in her Fed with the rules of that Fed and with the approved gear of that fed just like every one else and that other guy squats in his. So If I bowl a 300 game with a house ball does that make me a better bowler than the guy with the $1000 top of the line ball… maybe but WGAF…NASCAR has the regular cars and Busch league different rules and different gear. Are we gonna discredit one or the other?

Besides who gives a shit what they can do, what can YOU do. beat your lifting records in whatever fashion you decide and lift with similar people. I really don’t see the point i your thoughts. There’s too many variables to give a shit. Are they raw, wear gear… single, multi, unlimited, are they natural or untested did they go to Tijuana and get surgically altered to be super human, are they even human… yes I’m being about as absurd as this thread has become.

2_SCOOPS · May 2, 2012, 2:39pm

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:
The biggest issue with geared powerlifting is that “world records” fall more rapidly in this sport than any other sport on the planet. Think about that for a second. How often does the 100m or 5000m world record get broken? How often does the raw bench record get broken? When new gear comes out records fall. I have drawn my own conclusions from this. [/quote]

you are in luck!! YOU sir can get a Metal Jack Squatter for $349 and a Jack shirt for $325 and break that world record!! haha

Seriously though, the raw lifting records get broken all the time too. in fact theres a thread on here about the guy benching 600something pounds raw. See for your self at PLwatch . com peeps break state record and national records all the time. Maybe reconsider your conclusions…
[/quote]

the 100m record has been broken quite frequently. at the Drake Relays here there are about 20+ records each year that get broken at this high level event. and records getting broken all the time is not the problem with geared powerlifting, it’s a problem with powerlifting in general. the only records that do not get broken very often are the all time geared records and the all time raw records. do you even know how often new gear comes out? most of what is available now has been around since multiply has been popular. other than the metal jack line and overkill there has been no new gear in atleast 7 years. if you look at most of the videos of the new all time geared records, the gear they are using has been around for a while and the material has been around. since the metal jack and overkill has come out, only a couple records have fallen i believe. even so, that’s doing far better than the world 100m record which has been broken 8 times in the last 10 years.

to address the laura phelps video. she also raw squats over 600, and raw benches close to 350. i think that ads some validity to her lifting. as far as her saying that she squats 770 and not addressing the gear, i don’t blame her. there is nothing more complicated than trying to explain to non lifters about powerlifting gear. the general public is oblivious to gear and it just confuses them.

DixiesFinest · May 2, 2012, 3:48pm

LOL at OP not wanting to start a gear vs raw debate.

man_bear_pig · May 2, 2012, 4:11pm

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
This topic is funny as hell; allow me to spin a bit. Imagine if someone said that the only reason Usain Bolt can run a 3.94 sec 40 was because he was wearing Brand “X” shoe and brand “X” running suit. What if someone said that the reason Lance Armstrong could win 7 Tours was because he rode a 15# bike. You Hunt? You used an bow right? Not a new compound bow but an stick with a string made of gut right? Better yet a spear cause that’s raw man. Pick any sport, any champion and suggest it was gear that allowed them to excel at that sport. You’d prolly get told something along the lines of “well they would kick ass at that sport regardless of what gear they have because they are that good, they are in fact the best at what they do, the gear, which is accessible by all, merely helps them achieve their goals in the respective sport”.[/quote]
The contention is by how much gear improves performance and if some guy beat another because of his equipment or if he was actually stronger.

Secondly, there are debates in other sports about equipment, especially in swimming. Nike and Speedo were raging at each other trying to get the other’s suits banned from competition at the last olympics because of buoyancy profiles. The same thing happened in sprinting when Nike was trying to push full body suits with drag coefficients lower than skin.

HARA · May 2, 2012, 7:40pm

decided not to feed this anymore and edited

PeteS · May 2, 2012, 8:25pm

[quote]man bear pig wrote:

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
This topic is funny as hell; allow me to spin a bit. Imagine if someone said that the only reason Usain Bolt can run a 3.94 sec 40 was because he was wearing Brand “X” shoe and brand “X” running suit. What if someone said that the reason Lance Armstrong could win 7 Tours was because he rode a 15# bike. You Hunt? You used an bow right? Not a new compound bow but an stick with a string made of gut right? Better yet a spear cause that’s raw man. Pick any sport, any champion and suggest it was gear that allowed them to excel at that sport. You’d prolly get told something along the lines of “well they would kick ass at that sport regardless of what gear they have because they are that good, they are in fact the best at what they do, the gear, which is accessible by all, merely helps them achieve their goals in the respective sport”.[/quote]
The contention is by how much gear improves performance and if some guy beat another because of his equipment or if he was actually stronger.

Secondly, there are debates in other sports about equipment, especially in swimming. Nike and Speedo were raging at each other trying to get the other’s suits banned from competition at the last olympics because of buoyancy profiles. The same thing happened in sprinting when Nike was trying to push full body suits with drag coefficients lower than skin. [/quote]

HARA, gotta disagree with you on the your first point, that can’t be the contention. Anyone competing knows that multiply is measured by multiply standards, raw by raw, they are different classifications when you sign your meet entry form…

PeteS · May 2, 2012, 8:28pm

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

Seriously tho, I’m 39. I’ve gone from raw or die to gear whore or die to in the middle to IDGAF anymore. Here’s fact for me… If I train raw all the time I feel beat up. When I feel beat up I end up sitting on my ass on the couch or not doing as much in the gym because I’m beat up from last time. That’s never good. when I train in gear I can lift heavier weight and afterwards I feel a shit ton better, which allows me to train again sooner. In the end I get more training and feel good doing it. I’ll take being a “CHEATER” and still be in the gym in 20 years than being some old broke down guy who “used to lift weights” any day. [/quote]

I find this nearly the opposite, at just a year older than you. all out ME work in gear just leaves me beat, 3 hour shirted bench sessions with 700+ in my hands usually leave me stupid and exhausted for two days, circa max squat cycles beat to fuck for a week or two after. Whereas I can do a max raw lift, say floor press, or squat, and feel relatively ok two days later.

ouroboro_s · May 2, 2012, 8:30pm

[quote]PeteS wrote:

[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:

Seriously tho, I’m 39. I’ve gone from raw or die to gear whore or die to in the middle to IDGAF anymore. Here’s fact for me… If I train raw all the time I feel beat up. When I feel beat up I end up sitting on my ass on the couch or not doing as much in the gym because I’m beat up from last time. That’s never good. when I train in gear I can lift heavier weight and afterwards I feel a shit ton better, which allows me to train again sooner. In the end I get more training and feel good doing it. I’ll take being a “CHEATER” and still be in the gym in 20 years than being some old broke down guy who “used to lift weights” any day. [/quote]

I find this nearly the opposite, at just a year older than you. all out ME work in gear just leaves me beat, 3 hour shirted bench sessions with 700+ in my hands usually leave me stupid and exhausted for two days, circa max squat cycles beat to fuck for a week or two after. Whereas I can do a max raw lift, say floor press, or squat, and feel relatively ok two days later. [/quote]

Maybe it’s age Pete. That’s why I’m mostly training raw now. I’ve noticed I’m at my strongest when I switch from raw to gear and end up beating myself into the ground by the time I hit a meet. This cycle I’m leaving the gear until the last few weeks and keeping it minimal.

frankjl · May 2, 2012, 8:38pm

Editted

DoubleDuce · May 2, 2012, 8:40pm

It exists because people enjoy doing it.

StrengthDawg · May 2, 2012, 10:11pm

let me clarify what I mean by “geared” for me… I’m in semi gear whore mode. I train with Metal pro briefs and that’s it. They help me to not feel beat up. So I totally get what you mean Pete about feeling beat to shit with the heavy weights and long “stay times”. Sorry for any confusion y’all.

UAphenix · May 2, 2012, 10:18pm

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Good point StrengthDawg although I do think about things like they have better shoes, the jump-off thing at the start (don’t know name) and other things I’m sure. It all does help.

I know it’s just the progression of the sport which is fine. But it’s progression - usually - in a negative way. Too much multi-ply lifting means high squats which is ridiculous. I don’t know if the rules are different for the depth needed to hit but… come on, we all know it’s high. Now someone might say that’s progression of the sport and they don’t feel beat up if they half squat but there’s a fine line when you have to just stop and think “Come on, this is stupid”.

Not saying all geared lifters lift high but I’d say in general you see a lot more high squats with multi-ply lifters than raw.[/quote]

The difference in squat form changes depth necessary to hit to have the best chance of reversing the weight. RAW, you can dive-bomb and use your stretch reflex to pop out of the whole. With gear, you have a ton more support, slowing you down and giving you a good amount of pop anywhere on the reverse. Also if you try and dive-bomb in gear you’re more than likely gonna fold over like an accordion and get stapled with it. We have a saying during a meet, if you get more than 2 white lights than you’re doing it wrong. I want to meet the requirements for a good lift, but I don’t get anything for breaking parallel by a mile besides lbs left on the platform. The other thing is most people in this thread are failing to remember is powerlifting is about beating your PRs first and foremost. What do I care what someone else does on the platform (other than watching huge lifts, which is awesome in gear or RAW)? And about breaking the records frequently, powerlifting is a relatively young sport compared to track and field and swimming. Those sports have had a long time to level out (and even now swimming equipment is still causing waves (pun intended), and on top of it powerlifting has a bazillion feds with their own records, so it’s no wonder why we see them broken often.

Also, when I was competing in meets, I’ve never had someone come up to me and bitch that I was cheating for using gear. But I have had many people come up and ask how they can get started in gear because it looks awesome or compliment me or my team on their form with the gear and being able to handle the weights. I accept geared lifting as being different as raw, but if you’re in an open meet and want to go raw, more power to ya, but if you don’t place below people that chose to use gear. You can’t really be mad, or bitch about it, it’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight. The geared person generally has put in the additional time to learn the gear and didn’t just get it in the mail yesterday and throw it on for the first time at the meet. But again, I’ve never had or seen anyone complain about that in person. I’m always amazed at how many people come out of the woodwork to bash gear online.

Bambi · May 2, 2012, 10:55pm

[quote]UAphenix wrote:

[quote]michael_xyz wrote:
Good point StrengthDawg although I do think about things like they have better shoes, the jump-off thing at the start (don’t know name) and other things I’m sure. It all does help.

I know it’s just the progression of the sport which is fine. But it’s progression - usually - in a negative way. Too much multi-ply lifting means high squats which is ridiculous. I don’t know if the rules are different for the depth needed to hit but… come on, we all know it’s high. Now someone might say that’s progression of the sport and they don’t feel beat up if they half squat but there’s a fine line when you have to just stop and think “Come on, this is stupid”.

Not saying all geared lifters lift high but I’d say in general you see a lot more high squats with multi-ply lifters than raw.[/quote]

The difference in squat form changes depth necessary to hit to have the best chance of reversing the weight. RAW, you can dive-bomb and use your stretch reflex to pop out of the whole. With gear, you have a ton more support, slowing you down and giving you a good amount of pop anywhere on the reverse. Also if you try and dive-bomb in gear you’re more than likely gonna fold over like an accordion and get stapled with it. We have a saying during a meet, if you get more than 2 white lights than you’re doing it wrong. I want to meet the requirements for a good lift, but I don’t get anything for breaking parallel by a mile besides lbs left on the platform. The other thing is most people in this thread are failing to remember is powerlifting is about beating your PRs first and foremost. What do I care what someone else does on the platform (other than watching huge lifts, which is awesome in gear or RAW)? And about breaking the records frequently, powerlifting is a relatively young sport compared to track and field and swimming. Those sports have had a long time to level out (and even now swimming equipment is still causing waves (pun intended), and on top of it powerlifting has a bazillion feds with their own records, so it’s no wonder why we see them broken often.
. [/quote]

Indeed. Though swimming has banned all full bodysuits now and certain types of suits as well, as the amount of world records getting broken was ridiculous.

As for gear vs. raw. vs. RAWWWWW debate, they’re different sports I think

UAphenix · May 2, 2012, 11:05pm