Real Paleo Exercise

Training
21

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
We certainly aren’t ‘born to squat, bench and clean’, on this we can agree.

But your list is still wonky in my opinion.

It is similar to what vegans write in defense of their herbivore theory.
in other words, just because we can do some things or geown some organs doesn’t have to mean we are exclusive endurance hunters.
Some facts in your list are crazily distorted.
E.g. (Barefoot) walking though the woods is NOT possible with a “virtually inactive” achilles tendon.
or
the account of various anatomical facts- yes we have a nice ass that chimpanzees lack. Which is one big part of the reason they cannot walk upright very well and we can.
What has that to do with the endurance hunting theory?!

For a sound paleontological theory, I’d like to see a timeframe.
Are we talking about a human ancestor? If so why should we care?
He certainly wasn’t successful enough to switch to a full-fledged carnivore. Which is strange, given his superexpensive hunting tactic (see my last post).
Or are we talking about homo sapiens sapiens?
Why did he venture into many non-endurance huntable regions so fast, then?
Why do practically all native tribes today hunt with ridiculously minimal effort? In contrast, I’ve read about one african tribe who supp. engages in endurance hunting.

There are other adaptions that are even more amazing.
Which animal can build and hurl a killing/stunnung device with such precision?
That takes some serious calculation.
So we are ‘throwers’, maybe?
[/quote]

Rethinking this I think we agree more than disagree. I certainly do not think we have evolved to be exclusive endurance hunters. But we have adaptiations that appear to only be relevant in running.

The point of the achilles, is that it is only active in walking at toe off. In human locomotion, the Pendular mechanics of walking, make the calcaneus very important for initial contact. As I explained earlier, running is not Pendular. In order to take advantage of achilles tendon stretch mechanism, it must first stretch, to gain the potential kinetic energy. This does not occur in walking. Only in running, and primarily (achilles, iliotibial can still stretch from limb complience as a result of vertical displacemnt) only in mid to forefoot strikes. WHich is where Martin Rooney, was wrong a little while back when he stated something to the effect of “then why are we supposed to run on our heels?” …that’s it, we arent, (well sort of). The forefoot should touch down first followed by the heel then toe off again. We work like springs, storing and releasing energy. (the plantar arch returns 17% more energy in running than in walking) As I alse pointed out earlier this is where the “U” shaped Curve of the metabolic cost of locomotion comes into play. To a certain point walking fast is more costly than jogging slow, which is why most humans voluntarily switch to running around 2.3-2.5 m/s. This takes advantage of the mass-spring mechanics of jogging. And to fully do so, requires anatomical features like long achilles tendons, longitudinal arches, IT band, lower shoulders, etc.

The point about our “ass” is that it’s development is directly proportional to the velocity demands of running in Bipeds. The butt is not very active if it all in walking, so why did we develop big butts.

Just taking a look at all top runners, what do they have in common, long achilles, big ass (sprinters, more than endurance athletes). Some might have veriations, but these things are key in running.

Enter toes, as I mentioned earlier longer toes= greater force which in turns means a greater metabolic cost. So what happend to our toes? they shortened.

In Australopthicus, the gelnoid cavity is oriented cranially, which results in shoulders that are elevated, which would aid in climbing, but whould have no obvious hiinderance to bipedal walking, but would clearly impede with the counter rotations on the transverse axis that occur when running.

Nuchal ligament, absent in chimps and australopithecines, is a stabilizing feature with greater use in running, not walking.

These are just a few of the adaptations, that have no other reason to exist other than for running.

22

And I apologize for spelling mistakes that i am too lazy to go back and fix lol

23

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
It is very, very unprobable, that we evolved into execptional endurance athletes because

-Nearly no indian tribe hunts in that particular way. They do other stuff, though, like fishing, trapping, spearslinging, clubtossing, bolathrowing, antpicking, honeystealing etc
The list is long, and it can all be done with comparatively very little fuss.[/quote]

This isn’t exactly evidence towards anything. Just because modern hunter-gatherer groups do not utilize persistence hunting or anything similar to it doesn’t mean that our ancient ancestors did not.

Rather, afaik, the biggest piece of evidence that humans employed some form of endurance hunting/life-style is the fact that we’ve fanned out so far. Why spread out so much through the years? It’s commonly accepted that humans followed herd animals during their migration periods, and that partly accounts for why we’ve spread out so much.

Living at a single place is a “modern” concept. The first recognizable evidence of agriculture or some form of sedentary life-style is at most 10,000 years old. In comparison, modern humans have been around for at least 200,000 years. If those humans weren’t farming or domesticating animals for food, then they must have been following the food sources, seeing as how they tend to be herd animals that migrate or move all over the place.

I’ve read a long time ago that the human body is designed to be able to walk/run/jog 10+ miles with fairly little effort daily. I can’t give you an exact source because that was a long time ago, but all of my experience points to that being real. Even fairly out of shape people can walk for very long distances, provided that they pace themselves. This obviously fits in with the idea that early humans had to follow herd animals around as they migrated.

So, even if persistence hunting as a whole didn’t exist (which I doubt, though I suppose there can be a very wide variety of definition for the term), claiming that the human body was designed for anything besides endurance walking seems weird. Virtually every part of our body is made to walk.

24

[quote]Field wrote:
Yeah i spent years 15-17 doing a ton of distance running to lose fat, went from 230lbs to 155lbs. Remembered being pretty weak, rememberd actually having LESS FREQUENT AND SOFTER WOOD. But hey…i could run relatively slow for a lonnng time, which is useful(?)

Some place i worked at the manager did alot of triathalon stuff, very big on long distance stuff, he talked to me about how he randomly tore a glute muscle while sprinting after a frisbee one time.

No surpise there.

[/quote]

Sure it wasn’t just getting 17 years older?

Sprinters are notorious for tearing muscles, far more so than endurance athletes.

25

the most probable truth is that the average ancient hunter-gatherer was substantially stronger in endurance/power than your average folk on this forum, and trying to make comparisons wouldn’t really work unless your life also revolved around walking 10+ miles a day and hunting things that move much, much faster than we do.

26

[quote]colt44 wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
We certainly aren’t ‘born to squat, bench and clean’, on this we can agree.

But your list is still wonky in my opinion.

It is similar to what vegans write in defense of their herbivore theory.
in other words, just because we can do some things or geown some organs doesn’t have to mean we are exclusive endurance hunters.
Some facts in your list are crazily distorted.
E.g. (Barefoot) walking though the woods is NOT possible with a “virtually inactive” achilles tendon.
or
the account of various anatomical facts- yes we have a nice ass that chimpanzees lack. Which is one big part of the reason they cannot walk upright very well and we can.
What has that to do with the endurance hunting theory?!

For a sound paleontological theory, I’d like to see a timeframe.
Are we talking about a human ancestor? If so why should we care?
He certainly wasn’t successful enough to switch to a full-fledged carnivore. Which is strange, given his superexpensive hunting tactic (see my last post).
Or are we talking about homo sapiens sapiens?
Why did he venture into many non-endurance huntable regions so fast, then?
Why do practically all native tribes today hunt with ridiculously minimal effort? In contrast, I’ve read about one african tribe who supp. engages in endurance hunting.

There are other adaptions that are even more amazing.
Which animal can build and hurl a killing/stunnung device with such precision?
That takes some serious calculation.
So we are ‘throwers’, maybe?
[/quote]

Rethinking this I think we agree more than disagree. I certainly do not think we have evolved to be exclusive endurance hunters. But we have adaptiations that appear to only be relevant in running.

The point of the achilles, is that it is only active in walking at toe off. In human locomotion, the Pendular mechanics of walking, make the calcaneus very important for initial contact. As I explained earlier, running is not Pendular. In order to take advantage of achilles tendon stretch mechanism, it must first stretch, to gain the potential kinetic energy. This does not occur in walking. Only in running, and primarily (achilles, iliotibial can still stretch from limb complience as a result of vertical displacemnt) only in mid to forefoot strikes. WHich is where Martin Rooney, was wrong a little while back when he stated something to the effect of “then why are we supposed to run on our heels?” …that’s it, we arent, (well sort of). The forefoot should touch down first followed by the heel then toe off again. We work like springs, storing and releasing energy. (the plantar arch returns 17% more energy in running than in walking) As I alse pointed out earlier this is where the “U” shaped Curve of the metabolic cost of locomotion comes into play. To a certain point walking fast is more costly than jogging slow, which is why most humans voluntarily switch to running around 2.3-2.5 m/s. This takes advantage of the mass-spring mechanics of jogging. And to fully do so, requires anatomical features like long achilles tendons, longitudinal arches, IT band, lower shoulders, etc.

The point about our “ass” is that it’s development is directly proportional to the velocity demands of running in Bipeds. The butt is not very active if it all in walking, so why did we develop big butts.

Just taking a look at all top runners, what do they have in common, long achilles, big ass (sprinters, more than endurance athletes). Some might have veriations, but these things are key in running.

Enter toes, as I mentioned earlier longer toes= greater force which in turns means a greater metabolic cost. So what happend to our toes? they shortened.

In Australopthicus, the gelnoid cavity is oriented cranially, which results in shoulders that are elevated, which would aid in climbing, but whould have no obvious hiinderance to bipedal walking, but would clearly impede with the counter rotations on the transverse axis that occur when running.

Nuchal ligament, absent in chimps and australopithecines, is a stabilizing feature with greater use in running, not walking.

These are just a few of the adaptations, that have no other reason to exist other than for running. [/quote]

You’re reaching with your assumptions and seeing what you want to see. Go ahead and attempt to survive persistence hunting. You’ll be dead in two weeks. How about this, show evidence that any prehistoric men did any persistence hunting. I’ll save you the time, there isn’t any. There is a lot of evidence for ambush hunting, trapping, etc. These people weren’t stupid, they knew better than to try to run down something much, much faster than they are.

People fan out because we were hunter/GATHERERS. You gather in an area, move to the next. Follow herds, etc. Plus, sons and daughters move on to new groups, start new groups and move on to other areas. Also men are curious and we like to see whats over the next hill.

Also, if we are born to be endurance athletes,then why are we in such terrible shape when we are joggers? As a trainer, I see this all the time, these people are weak, inflexible, and pretty much on the verge of death. Rarely are they in what anyone could consider good shape, because this kind of training does not bring out the best in people. On the other hand, something that was born to run, like a horse, you run it and it gets muscular, strong and in very good shape. You are moving its body like it was designed. We were built to walk FAR, sprint, lift heavy things off the ground, sit in a squatted position (its the natural sitting position), drag heavy shit, carry heavy shit and climb. Have a human do these things and you’ll develop and healthy physique, because you are expressing the genes the way they are meant to be expressed.

27

[quote]1000rippedbuff wrote:

[quote]colt44 wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
We certainly aren’t ‘born to squat, bench and clean’, on this we can agree.

But your list is still wonky in my opinion.

It is similar to what vegans write in defense of their herbivore theory.
in other words, just because we can do some things or geown some organs doesn’t have to mean we are exclusive endurance hunters.
Some facts in your list are crazily distorted.
E.g. (Barefoot) walking though the woods is NOT possible with a “virtually inactive” achilles tendon.
or
the account of various anatomical facts- yes we have a nice ass that chimpanzees lack. Which is one big part of the reason they cannot walk upright very well and we can.
What has that to do with the endurance hunting theory?!

For a sound paleontological theory, I’d like to see a timeframe.
Are we talking about a human ancestor? If so why should we care?
He certainly wasn’t successful enough to switch to a full-fledged carnivore. Which is strange, given his superexpensive hunting tactic (see my last post).
Or are we talking about homo sapiens sapiens?
Why did he venture into many non-endurance huntable regions so fast, then?
Why do practically all native tribes today hunt with ridiculously minimal effort? In contrast, I’ve read about one african tribe who supp. engages in endurance hunting.

There are other adaptions that are even more amazing.
Which animal can build and hurl a killing/stunnung device with such precision?
That takes some serious calculation.
So we are ‘throwers’, maybe?
[/quote]

Rethinking this I think we agree more than disagree. I certainly do not think we have evolved to be exclusive endurance hunters. But we have adaptiations that appear to only be relevant in running.

The point of the achilles, is that it is only active in walking at toe off. In human locomotion, the Pendular mechanics of walking, make the calcaneus very important for initial contact. As I explained earlier, running is not Pendular. In order to take advantage of achilles tendon stretch mechanism, it must first stretch, to gain the potential kinetic energy. This does not occur in walking. Only in running, and primarily (achilles, iliotibial can still stretch from limb complience as a result of vertical displacemnt) only in mid to forefoot strikes. WHich is where Martin Rooney, was wrong a little while back when he stated something to the effect of “then why are we supposed to run on our heels?” …that’s it, we arent, (well sort of). The forefoot should touch down first followed by the heel then toe off again. We work like springs, storing and releasing energy. (the plantar arch returns 17% more energy in running than in walking) As I alse pointed out earlier this is where the “U” shaped Curve of the metabolic cost of locomotion comes into play. To a certain point walking fast is more costly than jogging slow, which is why most humans voluntarily switch to running around 2.3-2.5 m/s. This takes advantage of the mass-spring mechanics of jogging. And to fully do so, requires anatomical features like long achilles tendons, longitudinal arches, IT band, lower shoulders, etc.

The point about our “ass” is that it’s development is directly proportional to the velocity demands of running in Bipeds. The butt is not very active if it all in walking, so why did we develop big butts.

Just taking a look at all top runners, what do they have in common, long achilles, big ass (sprinters, more than endurance athletes). Some might have veriations, but these things are key in running.

Enter toes, as I mentioned earlier longer toes= greater force which in turns means a greater metabolic cost. So what happend to our toes? they shortened.

In Australopthicus, the gelnoid cavity is oriented cranially, which results in shoulders that are elevated, which would aid in climbing, but whould have no obvious hiinderance to bipedal walking, but would clearly impede with the counter rotations on the transverse axis that occur when running.

Nuchal ligament, absent in chimps and australopithecines, is a stabilizing feature with greater use in running, not walking.

These are just a few of the adaptations, that have no other reason to exist other than for running. [/quote]

You’re reaching with your assumptions and seeing what you want to see. Go ahead and attempt to survive persistence hunting. You’ll be dead in two weeks. How about this, show evidence that any prehistoric men did any persistence hunting. I’ll save you the time, there isn’t any. There is a lot of evidence for ambush hunting, trapping, etc. These people weren’t stupid, they knew better than to try to run down something much, much faster than they are.

People fan out because we were hunter/GATHERERS. You gather in an area, move to the next. Follow herds, etc. Plus, sons and daughters move on to new groups, start new groups and move on to other areas. Also men are curious and we like to see whats over the next hill.

Also, if we are born to be endurance athletes,then why are we in such terrible shape when we are joggers? As a trainer, I see this all the time, these people are weak, inflexible, and pretty much on the verge of death. Rarely are they in what anyone could consider good shape, because this kind of training does not bring out the best in people. On the other hand, something that was born to run, like a horse, you run it and it gets muscular, strong and in very good shape. You are moving its body like it was designed. We were built to walk FAR, sprint, lift heavy things off the ground, sit in a squatted position (its the natural sitting position), drag heavy shit, carry heavy shit and climb. Have a human do these things and you’ll develop and healthy physique, because you are expressing the genes the way they are meant to be expressed.

[/quote]

No, get back at me when you become educated in human evolutionary biology, anatomy, and physiology. I have already listed relevant anatomical adaptations, perhaps you have an alternative?

WHy are you arguing on what type of training is best, I have made no such claims.

Why are you making a point that there are other methods of hunting, I never made any statements in that regard.

I have never said any group of prehistoric man have relied solely on persistence hunting.

Why are you talking about people who live sedentary lives, and their lack of flexibilty, strength, etc. What have I said on this subject?

Although, I did say how many people complete marathons each year is a testament to that ability, when most of them are terribly out of shape.

You say we were meant to sprint, I can assure you that is absolutely not the case, well at leat in the definition of a sprint I am assuming you mean.

In the end, this is not making a case for what type of training is best, I am simply stating the anatomical differences, that have no other reason to exist other than for some type of endurance running (not to be confused with running a marathon, continuous aerobic work) but can be in combination of varying speeds.

28

Here’s an episode of the nature of things which explains how running, specifically long distance, was key to our survival for a long time. As for no scientific evidence, watch the documentary. It appears that there were persistence hunters as recently as 100 years ago in Africa. I don’t really understand how people can piss all over endurance running so much, I mean sure it definitely won’t get you huge, but that should be a given.

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episode/the-perfect-runner.html#