Reactive Strength Development

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

We are splitting hairs here. [/quote]
Probably. I think we are on the same page, more or less. However, I’m wondering what portion of the lift you are talking about when you say ‘the catch’. Are you talking about when the bar is flinging up in the air and the lifter is getting under the bar? Or are you talking about once the bar is racked on the shoulders (in the clean) and the lifter ‘rides’ the bar down into the full clean squat? Because I am talking about the latter.

A good example of a lifter who catches it high is Chigishev. This is tremendous reactive strength being developed, no? (i.e. the lifter is applying an upward force with his legs to control the weight as he descends into the squat for the stretch reflex).

In the video below, I’m talking about once the bar is racked on Chigi’s shoulders and his legs are just above parallel. Good discussion btw. :slight_smile:

42

I love this thread… I use to go to bb.com but the discussions here are about 100,000x as intelligent and helpful. Keep up the good work STB.

43

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]jacob-1310 wrote:
have you ever tried the reactive/contrast method with heavy-light sets? [/quote]

Yes. I got nothing out of it. True reactive strength can only be developed in a state of ZERO fatigue, low volume, and maximum force on every rep.[/quote]

I really really like the contrast method CT uses. I will agree I got a minimal amount if any out of the traditional heavy/light sets, such as Poliquins old stuff. But I really like the way CT organizes his contrast training.

Also on a related note, your reactive exercises are a lot like the central concept behind CT’s neural charge workouts. in fact, your above statement is pretty much exactly the definition of what CT calls a neural charge workout, only he often picks “traditional” exercises like kb swings, squats, push press, step ups, etc. (or not true reactive exercises) along with jumps and bounding etc. I really like the effect I get from using the reactive exercises as a separate session from the “traditional” strength sessions.

44

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

We are splitting hairs here. [/quote]
Probably. I think we are on the same page, more or less. However, I’m wondering what portion of the lift you are talking about when you say ‘the catch’. Are you talking about when the bar is flinging up in the air and the lifter is getting under the bar? Or are you talking about once the bar is racked on the shoulders (in the clean) and the lifter ‘rides’ the bar down into the full clean squat? Because I am talking about the latter.

A good example of a lifter who catches it high is Chigishev. This is tremendous reactive strength being developed, no? (i.e. the lifter is applying an upward force with his legs to control the weight as he descends into the squat for the stretch reflex).

In the video below, I’m talking about once the bar is racked on Chigi’s shoulders and his legs are just above parallel. Good discussion btw. :slight_smile:

[/quote]

Watch what the bar does when it reaches the rack, after the 2nd pull. The bar whips. When he falls into the catch, the bar whip is still going up. If he just went down into the squat after the intial catch and dropped the bar, there would be no reactive component to the lift. The reactive force during a full clean is highest to overcome once the whip in the bar has started coming back down, which happens at the bottom of his squat. Over coming that force, and squatting the bar to completion is the reactive component of the lift.

Definitely splitting hairs now. haha. Yes, we are on the same page just with a slightly different perspective. You can tell he is near max because of the bar speed. I think that is why he looks so pissed off when he got the lift.

45

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]jacob-1310 wrote:
have you ever tried the reactive/contrast method with heavy-light sets? [/quote]

Yes. I got nothing out of it. True reactive strength can only be developed in a state of ZERO fatigue, low volume, and maximum force on every rep.[/quote]

I really really like the contrast method CT uses. I will agree I got a minimal amount if any out of the traditional heavy/light sets, such as Poliquins old stuff. But I really like the way CT organizes his contrast training.

Also on a related note, your reactive exercises are a lot like the central concept behind CT’s neural charge workouts. in fact, your above statement is pretty much exactly the definition of what CT calls a neural charge workout, only he often picks “traditional” exercises like kb swings, squats, push press, step ups, etc. (or not true reactive exercises) along with jumps and bounding etc. I really like the effect I get from using the reactive exercises as a separate session from the “traditional” strength sessions.[/quote]

Same idea but with a different application. I wouldnt suggest doing a bunch of reactive drills on off days just because of how stressful they can be. He is using them to prep the body for workouts, which does absolutely work. There is tons of literature (not just scientific) about this stuff.

My application is geared towards improving the powerlifts. So, if one wanted to do some sort of explosive plymetric work, not reactive strength drills, I would suggest doing jumps and throws on off days that do not have a countermovement, or minimal eccentrics. Stuff like seated box jumps, concentric only box jumps (drop into a squat, pause for 3-6 seconds, then jump out of the squat onto a box… BRUTAL!), kneeling jumps, and any kind of throw where you arent catching the object before you throw again.

I am definitely not claiming I made this shit up. I am just trying to fine tune somethings for a bigger total. I have a meet dec. 10th so I probably won’t get around to writing anything until after then.

Vasily Alexyeev (spell check) was doing this stuff in the 70’s. On off days he would load up a barbell with 200lbs, clean and throw it overhead 100 times, then go do a pool workout or some other crazy shit. Again, this is not reactive and it lacks eccentrics. I’m sure it sucked to do but without eccentrics, it was lacking the muscle action that causes the most damage and soreness. This was an off day. And he was pretty fast and strong.

Kinda started rambling a little bit but, does that make sense?

46

[quote]Ghost16 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Ghost16 wrote:
Is this type of training suitable for someone who doesn’t have a high level of absolute strength yet? Would it be better for someone who isn’t that strong yet (myself… 510 max deadlift) to just focus on heavy lifting and then worry about this type of training later?

I’m not putting down reactive strength training in any way I just know that STB already has a massive deadlift. Have you been doing reactive strength training all along or is this something you just picked up recently?[/quote]

I see what you are getting at. I know a lot of “testbooks” recommend that you should be able to squat somewhere around 1 and 1.5 times your bodyweight before you begin any kind of explosive plyometrics. I think that if you can sprint in a straight line without pain of discomfort and with good form (i.e. not all over the place) then you can do reactive strength drills.

Personally, I have always done sprints and jumps in my training. It has never actually been programmed in until now. Like I said, I will have something written up eventually that will lay out a program to follow. But just don’t do anything stupid to start out with. I would suggest mastering these jumps in this order: jumping from your knees to your feet, knees to feet to a vertical jump, knees to feet to a broad jump, kneeling broad jump, then eventually cycle back through each and start adding weight and boxes to the jumps. Spend at least two weeks on each jump, do 6-10 sets of 3 reps and make sure all reps are as FAST as you can possibly move.

Does that make sense?[/quote]

Yes that makes a lot of sense. Thank you. How many times a week should I do this?
[/quote]

The easiest way to explain this… any movement with a “jump, land, jump” only use on your workout days after a thourough warm-up. The kneeling broad jump and the kneeling jump can be done on off days but lower the volume by at least 2 sets. These are ok to do because these are not actually reactive jumps and are less stressful than the others but they will GREATLY help your jumping technique and general explosive strength.

Make sure everything is fast and every jump that has a “jump, land, jump” limit the amount of time between the land and jump. Get off the ground as fast as you can.

47

Storm, do you think doing that exercise with weight as you did in the first video is helpful. You didn’t seem to have the explosion that builds reactive strength. The actual work done looks to build more speed in lifts like a speed squat vs pure reactive strength.

48

Super helpful STB. I started doing the kneeling jumps with kettlebells (15lbs a side), before my workouts.

My current plan after my meet will go like this:

first 5-3-1 cycle - powercleans both days before lower body

next 5-3-1 cycle, powercleans 1 day, kneeling jumps the second

3rd 5-3-1 cycle, kneeling jumps to vertical on both days

This is all done prior to touching the weights. Does that sound decent? Thanks.

49

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Ghost16 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Ghost16 wrote:
Is this type of training suitable for someone who doesn’t have a high level of absolute strength yet? Would it be better for someone who isn’t that strong yet (myself… 510 max deadlift) to just focus on heavy lifting and then worry about this type of training later?

I’m not putting down reactive strength training in any way I just know that STB already has a massive deadlift. Have you been doing reactive strength training all along or is this something you just picked up recently?[/quote]

I see what you are getting at. I know a lot of “testbooks” recommend that you should be able to squat somewhere around 1 and 1.5 times your bodyweight before you begin any kind of explosive plyometrics. I think that if you can sprint in a straight line without pain of discomfort and with good form (i.e. not all over the place) then you can do reactive strength drills.

Personally, I have always done sprints and jumps in my training. It has never actually been programmed in until now. Like I said, I will have something written up eventually that will lay out a program to follow. But just don’t do anything stupid to start out with. I would suggest mastering these jumps in this order: jumping from your knees to your feet, knees to feet to a vertical jump, knees to feet to a broad jump, kneeling broad jump, then eventually cycle back through each and start adding weight and boxes to the jumps. Spend at least two weeks on each jump, do 6-10 sets of 3 reps and make sure all reps are as FAST as you can possibly move.

Does that make sense?[/quote]

Yes that makes a lot of sense. Thank you. How many times a week should I do this?
[/quote]

The easiest way to explain this… any movement with a “jump, land, jump” only use on your workout days after a thourough warm-up. The kneeling broad jump and the kneeling jump can be done on off days but lower the volume by at least 2 sets. These are ok to do because these are not actually reactive jumps and are less stressful than the others but they will GREATLY help your jumping technique and general explosive strength.

Make sure everything is fast and every jump that has a “jump, land, jump” limit the amount of time between the land and jump. Get off the ground as fast as you can.[/quote]

Thank you for the advice. I take it there isn’t any perfect guidelines as to how often to do these. I lift 6 days a week so if I’m doing “jump, land, jump” on workouts days that will be 6 days a week. Someone who only works out 4 days a week would do them 4X a week? To me it seems like you’re saying as long as you’re fresh and feel really good it shouldn’t be a problem.

50

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Storm, do you think doing that exercise with weight as you did in the first video is helpful. You didn’t seem to have the explosion that builds reactive strength. The actual work done looks to build more speed in lifts like a speed squat vs pure reactive strength.[/quote]

Helpful at a certain point. It was definitely slower. That was literally the first rep I have ever done with that exercise so there was some hesitance on my part and my technique on the jumps sucked.

You hit the nail on the head, the transition from the ground to the tire was not optimal for reactive strength. As far as an explosive strength exercise, it is awesome. I definitely wouldn’t consider it fast enough to be reactive strength building but there are certain times during training, like a very intense strength cycle or block, where a couple weeks of jumping like this with very heavy weights would help your reactive jumps when you returned to them in either a peaking or realization phase leading up to a competition.

The residual training effect of reactive/speed/explosive abilities lasts ar most 7 days ater training ceases. Building up a strength base with explosive jumping with weights will definitely help reactive jumping.

I am going to mess around with this in my next training cycle. I am going to back off from the reactive work to try to develop explosive strength with weighted jumping. If all goes as planned, when I return to the reactive strength drills, I should be much faster, and hopefully, that will transfer to my total at the meet.

If it sounds like I am guessing a lot, its because I am. I have no clue if this is going to help or not but so far, the speed of my lifts have drastcially increased in training.

51

[quote]Ghost16 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Ghost16 wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Ghost16 wrote:
Is this type of training suitable for someone who doesn’t have a high level of absolute strength yet? Would it be better for someone who isn’t that strong yet (myself… 510 max deadlift) to just focus on heavy lifting and then worry about this type of training later?

I’m not putting down reactive strength training in any way I just know that STB already has a massive deadlift. Have you been doing reactive strength training all along or is this something you just picked up recently?[/quote]

I see what you are getting at. I know a lot of “testbooks” recommend that you should be able to squat somewhere around 1 and 1.5 times your bodyweight before you begin any kind of explosive plyometrics. I think that if you can sprint in a straight line without pain of discomfort and with good form (i.e. not all over the place) then you can do reactive strength drills.

Personally, I have always done sprints and jumps in my training. It has never actually been programmed in until now. Like I said, I will have something written up eventually that will lay out a program to follow. But just don’t do anything stupid to start out with. I would suggest mastering these jumps in this order: jumping from your knees to your feet, knees to feet to a vertical jump, knees to feet to a broad jump, kneeling broad jump, then eventually cycle back through each and start adding weight and boxes to the jumps. Spend at least two weeks on each jump, do 6-10 sets of 3 reps and make sure all reps are as FAST as you can possibly move.

Does that make sense?[/quote]

Yes that makes a lot of sense. Thank you. How many times a week should I do this?
[/quote]

The easiest way to explain this… any movement with a “jump, land, jump” only use on your workout days after a thourough warm-up. The kneeling broad jump and the kneeling jump can be done on off days but lower the volume by at least 2 sets. These are ok to do because these are not actually reactive jumps and are less stressful than the others but they will GREATLY help your jumping technique and general explosive strength.

Make sure everything is fast and every jump that has a “jump, land, jump” limit the amount of time between the land and jump. Get off the ground as fast as you can.[/quote]

Thank you for the advice. I take it there isn’t any perfect guidelines as to how often to do these. I lift 6 days a week so if I’m doing “jump, land, jump” on workouts days that will be 6 days a week. Someone who only works out 4 days a week would do them 4X a week? To me it seems like you’re saying as long as you’re fresh and feel really good it shouldn’t be a problem.
[/quote]

Ok, if that is the case, I would suggest the “Jump, land, Jump” on your heavy and moderate lower body days. So, thats 2 days a week correct? Then just the jumps on 2 other days. Also, try to add in some explosive push-ups and pull-ups/rows on your two upper days with the same set and rep combinations with an emphasis on speed. Does that make sense?

No, there are no perfect guidlines and you definitely need to be fresh to do these exercises with max speed. In other words, if you feel like shit, don’t even bother doing them that day or only do 2-3 sets.

52

[quote]666Rich wrote:
Super helpful STB. I started doing the kneeling jumps with kettlebells (15lbs a side), before my workouts.

My current plan after my meet will go like this:

first 5-3-1 cycle - powercleans both days before lower body

next 5-3-1 cycle, powercleans 1 day, kneeling jumps the second

3rd 5-3-1 cycle, kneeling jumps to vertical on both days

This is all done prior to touching the weights. Does that sound decent? Thanks.[/quote]

Looks pretty good, try to vary it up a little bit. For example, change the weights you use on the jumps often in the second cycle. Also, in the third cycle add in a box and start keeping records with heights and weights used. If you can already do the jumps with some added weight without any problems, don’t be scared to get creative and do some crazy shit. It won’t negatively effect your workouts.

53

More stuff, these got pretty stressfull when I got up to 100 extra pounds:

54

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
The residual training effect of reactive/speed/explosive abilities lasts ar most 7 days ater training ceases.[/quote]

Mind expounding on this? Do you mean gains made from this training only last 7 days or some other effect?

55

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
The residual training effect of reactive/speed/explosive abilities lasts ar most 7 days ater training ceases.[/quote]

Mind expounding on this? Do you mean gains made from this training only last 7 days or some other effect?[/quote]

No, I THINK what he is saying is that you get a speed boost in other training sessions from a reactive session for up to 7 days after said workout. But it also means that in order to maintain or gain reactive strength you need to train it at least once a week, probably more.

Gains made in reactive strength are more volatile than other kinds, but also “permanent” in a sense just like gains in strength or mass…the gains in reactive strength you make over a year or several years will make you a faster, more explosive athlete/lifter for the rest of your career. They do fade faster though without training (like the guy who quits competitive bodybuilding–natural or not-- will have a greater amount of muscle even years after stopping all training…but he’ll lose a lot from his competitive days. Same thing with reactive strength only you lose the “edge” faster).

Unless you’re just naturally explosive. Then I’ll hate you for your gifts :).

Storm please correct me if I am wrong.

56

This is a really cool thread. Phil harrington is so sick.

57

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
The residual training effect of reactive/speed/explosive abilities lasts ar most 7 days ater training ceases.[/quote]

Mind expounding on this? Do you mean gains made from this training only last 7 days or some other effect?[/quote]

No, I THINK what he is saying is that you get a speed boost in other training sessions from a reactive session for up to 7 days after said workout. But it also means that in order to maintain or gain reactive strength you need to train it at least once a week, probably more.

Gains made in reactive strength are more volatile than other kinds, but also “permanent” in a sense just like gains in strength or mass…the gains in reactive strength you make over a year or several years will make you a faster, more explosive athlete/lifter for the rest of your career. They do fade faster though without training (like the guy who quits competitive bodybuilding–natural or not-- will have a greater amount of muscle even years after stopping all training…but he’ll lose a lot from his competitive days. Same thing with reactive strength only you lose the “edge” faster).

Unless you’re just naturally explosive. Then I’ll hate you for your gifts :).

Storm please correct me if I am wrong.[/quote]

You are about 90% correct.

Residual Training Efects are the amount of time you retain the improvements of training a specific skill after a period of concentrated loading. Concentrated loading periods can last anywhere from 2-5 weeks and the exact time is totally dependant on the adaptability of the lifter. Once contentrated loading has ceased, you AT MOST 7 days that the gains from explosive/reactive/speed training remain optimal, then they slowly start to taper off. This is one of the main principles behing Block Periodization but if you really think about it, everyones training is built around it. Think about your own training or other training programs you have seen, all of the heaviest, most technical, and most eplosive work is prioritized the last couple weeks before the meet because those effcts last the least amount of time. The rest of training is usually month long cycles or high volume, low intensity work and/or high intensity, low volume. The Residual Training Effects of the working mechanisms for size and strength can last up to 30+ days. Good training programs have all of the skills nessecary to the sport being trained year round just with different emphasis during different periods during the macrocycle.

Does that make sense? I explained it as best I could, if you want a deeper understanding, go get Block Periodization. It’s nuts.

58

[quote]GhostOD wrote:
This is a really cool thread. Phil harrington is so sick. [/quote]

The fucking guy did a 5’5’’ broad jump from his knees with a 20lbs weight vest on when I was up there. That’s one of the craziest things I have ever seen.

59

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
The residual training effect of reactive/speed/explosive abilities lasts ar most 7 days ater training ceases.[/quote]

Mind expounding on this? Do you mean gains made from this training only last 7 days or some other effect?[/quote]

No, I THINK what he is saying is that you get a speed boost in other training sessions from a reactive session for up to 7 days after said workout. But it also means that in order to maintain or gain reactive strength you need to train it at least once a week, probably more.

Gains made in reactive strength are more volatile than other kinds, but also “permanent” in a sense just like gains in strength or mass…the gains in reactive strength you make over a year or several years will make you a faster, more explosive athlete/lifter for the rest of your career. They do fade faster though without training (like the guy who quits competitive bodybuilding–natural or not-- will have a greater amount of muscle even years after stopping all training…but he’ll lose a lot from his competitive days. Same thing with reactive strength only you lose the “edge” faster).

Unless you’re just naturally explosive. Then I’ll hate you for your gifts :).

Storm please correct me if I am wrong.[/quote]

You are about 90% correct.

Residual Training Efects are the amount of time you retain the improvements of training a specific skill after a period of concentrated loading. Concentrated loading periods can last anywhere from 2-5 weeks and the exact time is totally dependant on the adaptability of the lifter. Once contentrated loading has ceased, you AT MOST 7 days that the gains from explosive/reactive/speed training remain optimal, then they slowly start to taper off. This is one of the main principles behing Block Periodization but if you really think about it, everyones training is built around it. Think about your own training or other training programs you have seen, all of the heaviest, most technical, and most eplosive work is prioritized the last couple weeks before the meet because those effcts last the least amount of time. The rest of training is usually month long cycles or high volume, low intensity work and/or high intensity, low volume. The Residual Training Effects of the working mechanisms for size and strength can last up to 30+ days. Good training programs have all of the skills nessecary to the sport being trained year round just with different emphasis during different periods during the macrocycle.

Does that make sense? I explained it as best I could, if you want a deeper understanding, go get Block Periodization. It’s nuts.[/quote]

I think so. If I understand correctly your talking about application to a maximum lift. So that hypertrophy program/ or basic strength cycle would leave you able to lift max or near max for around 30 days. So if you may be able to taper down those cycles two weeks away from your peak while you would need to make sure the reactive/speed block would have to end within a few days away.

60

I’ve been doing kneeing to box jumps at BW 3x3 on my lower body day and increasing the Hightower of the box every week, I’ll add weight when I run out of stuff to put on the box, is this a good way to go about it or should I be thinking more about plyo?

My goals are to improve athletic ability and increase power out the hole for sq/DL.

I know this is an annoying question and I appologise, but I’ve been loving the RFD, it’s good fun and a great challenge.