I’m gonna have to say that moderation isn’t where the answers lie in my humble opinion.
I do still believe that a pay to post plan, done right, would be helpful. However, the conspicuous lack of comment on this leads me to also believe that they are inclined against it.
I don’t like the new “hot or not” feature. I do not like how the bodybuilding forum has all the article discussions stickied so they take up most of the top. I do like that TC said if the reaction is bad that they will change.
[quote]
On a similar note, I wish they’d put in a different sub-forum for article discussion.
I’m finding that putting up stickies in the ‘Bodybuilding’ forum just clutters everything up.
My $0.02, should the T-Nation powers-that-be value my opinion.[/quote]
You raise an excellent point, good topics are getting pushed to the second page too quickly.
The articles are good, mostly. By this, I mean that I’ve learned that I still have things to learn. More than this, I’ve learned from other more experienced veteran lifters that are members contributing sans articles. The members are the site.
That is not to say that they are the business. Biotest is a business. Food needs to find it’s way on the owners’ tables. This place is not some Testosterone Democracy. I respect that it’s an oligarchy.
But you’ve lost some members in the past. Good ones. To lose more would be contrary to success, even if it does put more food on your tables. The veteran members are the pride of the site. They are a free resource.
What’s best isn’t always what’s right, and visa versa.
The questions, I guess, are: What do the owners want? The best, or the most? Are these ideas mutually exclusive? What is important?
I shouldn’t have to pay to interact with other veteran members. I want to be able to set the noobs on the right path. I want more info. I want better supplements.
I don’t want this to turn into some touchy feely place. This place is a pool of piranhas. If new people can’t take it… they are probably the same people that won’t last three months in a gym. Do we need them? No. This life isn’t for everyone, or else we’d see big mofo’s all over the place.
[quote]Dirty Tiger wrote:
On a similar note, I wish they’d put in a different sub-forum for article discussion.
I’m finding that putting up stickies in the ‘Bodybuilding’ forum just clutters everything up.
My $0.02, should the T-Nation powers-that-be value my opinion.
You raise an excellent point, good topics are getting pushed to the second page too quickly.
[/quote]
I started a thread on this and the mods placed it in the Tech Support thread BUT no responses . . . . . . I wonder why?
I’ve been thinking about this all day!
I just wanted to give the guys my recommendations, with revisions, for possible SUB-HEADINGS for both “T-Nation” and “Muscle with an Attitude”.
I simply want to give TC and Tim some things to consider. After 10 years, I doubt I’m going anywhere…
So my thoughts/suggestions:
“T-Nation”
Article Discussion
Beginner’s Forum
(HEAVILY moderated, with attention ALSO being placed on the posters, not just those responding to the post. Posting pics from “bb.com” and asking if you should cut at 6ft 2 and 130 lbs; with this being their first post ever should AT LEAST raise some questions in the Mods minds).
Bodybuilding/Training Logs
Supplements and Nutrition
Strength Sports
Sex and the Male Animal
Politics and World Issues
Steroids
T-Nation Tech Support
“Muscle with an Attitude”
Training Logs
Contest Preparation
Female Health
Supplements, Diets and Nutrition
Sports, Strength and the Active Female
Sex, Rock and Roll and Other Chick Stuff
There is no need to “repeat” the "Politics, “Steroids” and "Tech-Support Section.
Ditch “Hot or Not”.
With a greater number of sections in “MWA”, some thought could be given as to whether of not there is a need for “Muscle Sorority” to ALSO appear in “MWA”. It should stay on “T-Nation”, since the need was passionately expressed to give a more prominent place on “T-Nation” for the ladies to interact with the guys.
I put my voice with others in saying that many of us are passionate about this community and only want to help.
(By the way TC and Tim…congratulations on the upcoming 10 year anniversary of “T-Mag”/“The Nation”…)
Mufasa
[quote]IronDude17 wrote:
I started a thread on this and the mods placed it in the Tech Support thread BUT no responses . . . . . . I wonder why? [/quote]
Try not to read too much into this. As TC has mentioned several times, we read and consider all comments / suggestions / concerns. Just because you didn’t get a response doesn’t mean you were being ignored.
Some of the comments being made remind me of critics that categorize the entire Sopranos series as “soft” when less than two people get whacked in one episode.
To echo TC once again: be patient. If changes need to be made, they will be. The beauty of the internet is it can be modified on the fly. None of what’s happened so far should be viewed as “the beginning of the end.”
[quote]LowfatMatt wrote:
IronDude17 wrote:
I started a thread on this and the mods placed it in the Tech Support thread BUT no responses . . . . . . I wonder why?
Try not to read too much into this. As TC has mentioned several times, we read and consider all comments / suggestions / concerns. Just because you didn’t get a response doesn’t mean you were being ignored.
Some of the comments being made remind me of critics that categorize the entire Sopranos series as “soft” when less than two people get whacked in one episode.
To echo TC once again: be patient. If changes need to be made, they will be. The beauty of the internet is it can be modified on the fly. None of what’s happened so far should be viewed as “the beginning of the end.”[/quote]
Thanks for the response. Much appreciated. I’ll trust you guys and go with what’s going on, hoping that all problems will be solved in the near future.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Those are the guys I speak to at the gym, not the 150lbs dudes who actually try to lift with their collars popped in pink polos who stop in between each set of curls to flex their nonexistent biceps in the mirror and then raise their shirts to flex their abs. It seems this site actually wants to cater to the latter.
Because that’s what mainstream society is catering to also, more and more. Why, I’m not sure. Perhaps because a routine of anorexia, abs, and curls is easier. Perhaps because the average 13 year old Britney Spears wannabe’s tastes are becoming more influential and actually being taken seriously by grown ass adults…
hence the whole “i just wanna look cute and skinny like Brad Pitt did in fight club,” genre. Perhaps because our society is becoming more and more superficial which lends itself more to the whole pretty boy, “i don’t wanna lose my abs, or be to huge” motif. Perhaps because more and more, mediocrity is celebrated.
Shit, look at what passes for good music and film these days. perhaps all of the above. I’m only 33 and already feeling like a bitter old man seeing how things are going.
I guess everyone has pretty exhausted themselves of suggestions?
Let’s hope the dialogue continues…
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I guess everyone has pretty exhausted themselves of suggestions?
Let’s hope the dialogue continues…
Mufasa [/quote]
I don’t really know what to say. I don’t really think the quality of the articles has gone down, they’re just different. I’d have to look back, but I can’t think of any recent articles that have really wowed me. I understand that part of the reason is my “older” training age and the specificity of my training. I can’t fault the site for that.
At the same time, the quality of the posters and threads has gone way down. Just look at the front page.
“Help With Nutrition During a Rave”
“DLing 315 IS Inspirational!”
“Ripping My Lower Abs”
And so on.
Yes, TC, we were all once newbies, but we’ve all also done or said something stupid and have been mocked and ridiculed for it. Many of us learned from it and shrugged it off. If one can’t get over things, then he probably doesn’t have the mental fortitude to last in the iron game anyway. This site is “Dangerously Hardcore.” Remember?
“Many of you who used to read Muscle Media 2000 a couple of years ago stopped because, almost overnight, it lost its edge and went mainstream.”
That quote is taken right from the Dangerously Hardcore description. Don’t make T-Nation mainstream. Who cares if some new kids can’t handle being insulted for asking a stupid question. If they stick it out, they’ll look back and realize it was a stupid question.
Now realize that every newbie doesn’t automatically ask stupid questions. There are a lot of newbies out there asking reasonable questions.
And those questions are almost always answered by the forum veterans. The ones who visit this place on their own time of their own free will and offer to help people. For every stupid off topic thing I post, I’m sure there is one reasonable, helpful post. The veterans keep this forum strong.
There are a lot of very intelligent people on this site who know what they’re talking about and have been around this website for quite some time. And it bothers a lot of us that it feels like there is a change of direction in “our” website.
And it bothers us that it feels like we are being disregarded when we voice our opinions. I don’t recall the girls being told they have sand in their vaginas when they complained about being booted off the site.
Anyway, I’m rambling on about the forums and I don’t know how much sense I’ve made. And I don’t know how much you can really do to regulate the forums anyway.
I also have to believe that the “Rate My Physique” is out the door. I think people have made their voices heard and I think the powers that be can see the ridiculousness of this idea now. It may have sounded good on paper, but you can see what kind of posts it has produced.
I will finish with something positive that I really like about the website: the Strong Words. It’s small, but I appreciate it. I can only imagine the work that must go into finding appropriate quotes five days a week for the last few years. It doesn’t go unnoticed.
…and it continues. I read this WHOLE discussion last night, but decided to sleep and clear my head and post this morning.
Ok, I am fairly new member here on T-Nation, about 3-4 months, and although I cannot speak on “How things used to be Vs How they are now” I do have some suggestions from a Noob’s perspective.
1-The Newbees thread must come back!!! I always checked it because there was very good advice given by members and many times other Noobs had questions that I had too.
–One of the most important things on the Noob’s thread were the 2 Sticked
Articles. Those articles explained what T-Nation was about, how you should post, etc. BUT AlSO they had links to other articles that Explained the BASICS of Nutrition, Muscle Growth, AND Posting Ethicate.
These articles pretty much answered a lot of questions and cleared up a lot of the confusion noobs had (especially about nutrition). It did for me.
–Another benefit this Sticked articles have is that when some Noob decides to skip them and ask a dumb question. The noob can be referred back to the Sticked Articles (politely or not).
2-Now about the Rate My Physic, one of the things I notice about it is how many posts had only 1 Pic and no explanation of the OP’s goals, training, and nutrition.
I believe that a Sticked Article should be put on that Thread that explains “How To Post” in this particular thread. And it should also explained that the submitter with be exposed to the TRUTH and should be prepared to handle the rough but very informative advice/critics. This way, when a noob posts 1 pic and nothing else he/she can be referred to the Sticked Article or even the Newbees Thread (again politely or not).
–Also, maybe do away with the whole rating thingy too, as other members have said, is smells like Hot-or-Not (which also has a 1-10 rating scale, take a look hotornot.com ).
3-I also agree with the suggestion to have a separate thread to discuss the Articles. The BB thread is getting cluttered.
Since T-Nation is experiencing many Noobs joining up and posting. It is important to have a place in the forums where new members can go to first. There, noobs can be EDUCATED on what the site is about, basic information, and posting ethicate.
Hence the need for a “Newbees Thread” and “Sticked Noob’s Must Read Articles”. Also a inside the Rate My Physic should be another Sticked Article that explains how to post in that thread. Finally, the BB thread should be uncluttered by moving the article discussions to a DIFFERENT thread.
those are my 2 cents fellas,
p.s the reason why I said “politely or not” is because in the examples the noob decided to “post-before-reading”.
My two cents:
I understand WHY there is this forum; its always good to have outside advice. Because my girlfriend and family will always think that I look good.
I’d say; make the “hot or not” forum drop the thread if your rating drops below a predetermined number. haha.
I don’t like that they took out the beginners (I’m not a beginner) section because there will just be a flood of “beginner” posts all over the place and everyone will flame them w/o knowing that they are infact: a beginner.
I am of two minds on this.
First Opinion
A. Biotest is a supplement company.
B. Biotest wants to be known for cutting edge training & nutrition info as well as supplements.
C. Biotest wants T-Nation to be a place where like-minded people can bond and share info, progress, triumphs, etc.
They exercise complete control over the first two, and those haven’t changed much over the years. It’s the third piece that WE make or break by our participation. By “we” I refer to the thousands who have posted in the past few years.
They don’t have control over “us”; as a result, we don’t always interact in the way they envisioned, and changes are made to the site to alter or limit interaction, since there’s no way they are going to influence thousands of us to act differently from the way we do now.
But at the end of the day, the chief purposes of the company, A and B above, are still in place, and so changing the site ultimately has only a relatively small affect on the big picture. People come and people go, but the site remains. For every Cupcake that leaves, so to does a Mr. Pushups Flameout. Some kind of equilibrium is maintained.
Maybe this is just the rambling of someone who thinks, since he can’t run the company, he might as well let Tim and TC do it and just follow along.
But something started to click when I read malonetd’s last post.
Second Opinion
TC, when I started reading years ago, I was an incredible novice–already old(ish), never an athlete, never “in-shape,” ignorant about proper nutrition. I mentally kicked myself that I didn’t start lifting 20 years earlier after getting familiar with this site.
The regulars in the weight room when I work out at 5:00a.m. are all younger and stronger than me–and not one of them wants to work in with me and my lifting partner, because none of them want to push that hard.
My lifting partner’s younger brother would call us “fucking insane” on leg days. Now we don’t do “leg days” because I talked my friend into TBT starting last November, and a woman who hasn’t seen me since before TBT ran into me yesterday and couldn’t help saying “Wow” at how much bigger I’ve become.
My friends outside the gym don’t get it, and I couldn’t explain it to them, but this site raised the bar for me. It forced me to move up to a new level. I went from someone who wanted to stave off the ruinous effects of old age and a sedentary life to someone who loves lifting, who understands lifting, who others ask advice of regarding lifting because I appear to know what I’m doing.
Because www.testosterone.net aka tmag.com aka T-Nation.com raised the bar for me.
I don’t want to get into a discussion of what “dangerously hardcore” means, because I don’t know what it means. I think I know what it’s not: it’s not a skinny newbie who wants to see his abs. Nor is it picking on a skinny newbie who wants to see his abs!
We need to raise the bar on newbies.
We need some volunteers among “us” who are willing to bear the burden of replying to their questions with simple courtesy and the argument to change their goals if they really want to look good. Someone needs to tell them that skinny is lame, strength is good, and effort is necessary.
We also need to raise the bar for ourselves.
If you feel contempt for the newbies, stay away from their posts. If they don’t get the fawning attention you claim they crave, they’ll leave out of frustration. No sense making yourselves frustrated responding to them.
TC, bring the Beginners forum back so we can corral them in one place with stickies that show them the way. Those who don’t want to deal with beginners should stay away from it and create the atmosphere they want in other forums. Maybe some newbies will eventually “graduate” and become valued members of the community. It’s happened before.
Raise the bar.
Why don’t you just limit the noobs to posting only in a beginners forum until they reach a certain post count or have been members a certain amount of time. It won’t fix everyting, but it should limit the junk threads. It’ll also give you a frame of reference for what type of person they are when they begin to post in the regular forums.
Just throwin’ out ideas.
[quote]TShaw wrote:
A bunch of excellent stuff and finished with:
Raise the bar.[/quote]
I really like the Forum breakdown now. Thanks, T-Nation.
IT’S DONE!
WE CHANGED SOME THINGS BACK.
NOW STOP THE CATERWAULING!
(I’ll be drinking early tonight…)
[quote]TC wrote:
IT’S DONE!
STOP THE CATERWAULING!
MOST THINGS ARE AS THEY WERE…
(I’ll be drinking early tonight…)
[/quote]
The bottle is not the answer!
Listening to long time members is!
THANKS, T!
Just a question…NOT a complaint!
Will “MWA” be getting Sub-Forums?
(The Lion DUCTS as TC pulls his hair out, breaks his computer screen and throws his “Real Doll” across the room; and “LowFattMatt” goes into an electromagnetic coma)…!
Mufasa
[quote]TC wrote:
IT’S DONE!
WE CHANGED SOME THINGS BACK.
NOW STOP THE CATERWAULING!
(I’ll be drinking early tonight…)
[/quote]
Don’t change it! We were just getting used to it!
Seriously, thank you for listening to the feedback.
You guys run a good company.