Rant: Help Me Understand

[quote]Sloth wrote:

This thread should be used as an opportunity for Obama/Pelosi supporters to voice their regrets. We’re here to welcome you.[/quote]

Obama supporter here, not really regretful.

I’ll gladly acknowledge that the health plan is rotten. It contains hardly anything in the way of holding down costs, which means that in a few years we’ll be having the same health debate all over again. It contains the Stupak amendment – a wrenching compromise that won’t be the last wrenching compromise. And, inevitably, lots of perverse incentives.

As with cap-and-trade, I think legislation is a good idea, and then when I see what actually results from the political process it’s appalling and doesn’t solve the fundamental problems. If health care passes the Senate, Obama will pat himself on the back and call it a day, I think, and we will have done next to nothing in a very expensive way.

That said.

Government is already in the business of health care when it subsidizes employer-provided insurance. Government created the system we’re in today, where insurance is practically synonymous with health care. It shouldn’t be. Insurance is an expensive way to pay for expenses you expect (like routine checkups and exams) because you’re paying for administrative overhead as well as the cost of care. And third-party payment causes huge rises in health care costs because patients don’t have any way to know how much procedures cost (since they aren’t footing the bill). Real health care reform would attack this problem.

The Republicans aren’t doing that. Nobody is doing that.

If somebody in Congress would propose a real alternative to an insurance mandate, I’d be all for it. The ideas exist; Marty Feldstein and David Goldhill came up with similar plans. Heck, Milton Friedman had a plan in the 90’s. It would work, it would raise wages and expand access to health care, and it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than the current House plan. But the Republican party seems to be more about stubbornness than innovation these days.

And the truth is, a strong public option – one strong enough to effectively function as single-payer health care – would also keep costs down, if the state insurer had the fiscal discipline to ration coverage. (Even Friedman acknowledged this.) It would be rationed, and so it would be command-and-control, and yes a bureaucrat with an MD would decide matters of life and death. But it would cut costs, and it would expand access to medical care. If that’s more likely to succeed politically than a more market-oriented reform, then that’s what we should do. If we actually give a damn about people getting health care in this country. Which I do.

It’s odd that the two things that work are on the so-called far right and far left, but if you think through it, that’s how it is.

So no, I don’t regret the passage of the bill. It might be a foundation for something real. The status quo is intolerable.

(I’m assuming we all pretty much agree that when it’s possible to eliminate serious suffering in our own country, we should do it, through government if necessary. Americans should not go hungry and they should not die from lack of medical treatment. I know there are people out there who disagree, but that seems very strange morally.)

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
Sloth wrote:

This thread should be used as an opportunity for Obama/Pelosi supporters to voice their regrets. We’re here to welcome you.

Obama supporter here, not really regretful.

[/quote]

Remember, you can edit this post at a later date. There’ll be no rubbing your nose in it, just a warm welcome.

Edit: Why, of all the issues with the health plan, would you mention Stupak? All it does is keep federal money from being used to fund elective abortions. Pick up a supplemental ‘abortion insurance.’

[quote]K2000 wrote:
jawara wrote:
Illegals shouldn’t be in the system at all…

Illegals can get emergency care because it’s against the law to turn someone away from the Emergency room (at least in some states). This prevents hospitals from potentially demanding your paperwork, as you bleed to death. Illegal immigration is a different conversation, but illegals are not covered by the current House bill, and will most likely not be covered by the Senate bill either. It’s highly unlikely that illegals will create a false identity in order to obtain health care under this bill, because we know that generally doesn’t happen under the Medicare system.

[/quote]
Um, actaully illegals ar going to be able to get access. In the case of the scenario you pointed out I think we should send Mexico a bill for every one of there people here illegally who takes their ki to the ER for a runny nose or a fever. http://www.numbersusa.com/content/news/november-6-2009/illegal-alien-access-remains-health-care-bill-floor-vote-nears.html

[quote]jawara wrote:

Um, actaully illegals ar going to be able to get access.

[/quote]

What page of the bill says they will get govt. funded health care?

Here’s a link if you want to flip through it:

The government will fuck up healthcare beyond recognition. I’m glad it was the Dems that passed it. They own and it will drive them from office in 2010 and 2012.

I don’t mind the M4. I’d like it more with a piston system but I don’t mind it at all. The rest I agree with.

[quote]jawara wrote:
Government cheese. Sucks.
The M4 Carbine is a piece of junk but the military uses it.
ACU pattern camo sucks the Army uses it also.
The governments response to Hurricane Katrina was horrible.
We’ve all heard of the governent wasting money.
Public education isnt all that great and it’s worse if you live in the ghetto.
Even Jerimah Wright has said the government is crooked. Remember his “God damn America speech”?

Lets face it folks, most f us really arent too happy with the government. I think congress has a 21% approval rating.
If thats the case why do people want the government to be in charge of their healthcare? [/quote]

I’ve carried the M4 on not one but two tours in Iraq. I’ve fired it in combat countless times. Other than it being slightly underpowered, I love it. Would I like a bigger round, hell yes. But for what it is designed to do, it works just fine.

That said, I’ve seen several weapons that SHOULD replace it.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
AlisaV wrote:
Sloth wrote:

This thread should be used as an opportunity for Obama/Pelosi supporters to voice their regrets. We’re here to welcome you.

Obama supporter here, not really regretful.

Remember, you can edit this post at a later date. There’ll be no rubbing your nose in it, just a warm welcome.

Edit: Why, of all the issues with the health plan, would you mention Stupak? All it does is keep federal money from being used to fund elective abortions. Pick up a supplemental ‘abortion insurance.’[/quote]

Well, this is why. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/11/a_very_bad_deal_to_pass_a_very.html

Granted, whatever your thoughts on the morality of abortion, it’s an elective procedure, and in a saner world abortion wouldn’t be covered by insurance any more than a car purchase would be. (via Sheldon Richman: Free Association: Insurance for Abortion: What’s Wrong with This Picture?). But this bill doesn’t bring us any closer to a saner world, so that’s a moot point.

It’s just occasionally frustrating that when compromise is made, it seems to be so often at the expense of women.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:
It’s just occasionally frustrating that when compromise is made, it seems to be so often at the expense of women. [/quote]

I don’t want to be mean, but seriously? We’re talking about a bill that will force people, in the end, to subsidize the healthcare of others. We’re even looking at the possibility of people being fined, even locked up, because they take a stand against an intrusive government by refusing to obtain healthcare coverage. Now that, is at the expense of everyone. But, if federal tax dollars aren’t used for elective abortions, women have been put upon? That’s so backwards it makes my head spin. Is this really how the feminist thinks?

Okay, I’m not going to belabor this; it is sort of a side issue to health care in general.
Yes, it is fairly common for feminists to be upset over this. (This critique, for example: Face it: The Democratic Party is not for women | Salon.com ).

Just as a matter of explanation, lots of people, from moderate and leftward, aren’t particularly upset by “forcing people to subsidize the _____ of others.” The details matter; you’ll hear it argued that some subsidies are expensive, some are for bad programs, etc. But it’s fairly uncommon, outside of libertarian circles, to be opposed to mandatory subsidies in general. It’s even rare to hold the more moderate position that mandatory subsidies or regulations should be restricted to genuine externalities and public goods.

To progressives like Klein or Harding, yes, women have been put upon; funding has been removed for something they may need.

[quote]K2000 wrote:
John S. wrote:
You do realize that we are using that money to fund social programs right?

I am against social programs so… we don’t need it.

Class of 2009 really has failed.

Man, I really hope your guys will campaign on ending social programs. You would never win anything bigger than a local election. Your political movement would go the way of the dodo bird.

Thanks in advance.

[/quote]
Yes, and I really hope your guys continue to dump endless amounts of money into them to “fix” problems that would not exist if these programs did not exist in the first place. If we cannot end it with legislation we will let natural law do the work for us because really these programs are destined to failure anyway.

How about another few billion for Cash for Clunkers…? You got some real geniuses on your side.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:

To progressives like Klein or Harding, yes, women have been put upon; funding has been removed for something they may need.[/quote]

Funding has been removed for something they may want, not need. And has it even been removed? Did they recieve subsidies for elective abortions, now to be taken away with this bill? Isn’t this the law of the land at the moment? That is, no federal funds for elective abortions.

Our republic has really gone down the tubes if a significant number of our citizens believe women have been put upon, because others aren’t forced to subsidize elective abortions. Hopefully, this isn’t the case.

[quote]K2000 wrote:
What’s funny is that many of the same people who are outraged - OUTRAGED - that a penny of their taxes might pay for somebody else’s health care, are the very same people who will insist until they are blue in the face that America was founded on Christian values.

Similarly, there wasn’t one single Tea Party demonstration, when Bush was president and spending like crazy for 8 years… it’s just hypocrisy.

You know who has 100% government-provided socialized health care?
IRAQ.

You know who pays for it?
American taxpayers.

You know who installed that system in Iraq?
The Bush administration.

But I’ve never seen one single “conservative” complain about socialized health care in Iraq. For 8 years, almost no conservatives complained about the exploding deficit under Bush.

So complain all you want… most people are not taking you seriously. There were more people demonstrating at the capitol for Gay Rights, than there were at the 9/12 Teabagger Protest.[/quote]

So you are saying that the deficit under Bush was larger than the deficit that has been produced by Obama. You are kidding me right. Obama has increased the deficit more than any other president by % and $ standards than any other President EVER.

edit: it took Bush 8 years and Obama only 1.

[quote]Valor wrote:

That said, I’ve seen several weapons that SHOULD replace it.[/quote]

Like this baby?

[quote]Well the original question is a non-sequiter, because the government is not going to get involved with about 90% of American’s current insurance. But why do most Americans want health care reform?
[/quote]

The government already pays for 60% of all health care in the United States. The more it pays, the higher the rates go.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:

Government is already in the business of health care when it subsidizes employer-provided insurance. Government created the system we’re in today, where insurance is practically synonymous with health care. It shouldn’t be. Insurance is an expensive way to pay for expenses you expect (like routine checkups and exams) because you’re paying for administrative overhead as well as the cost of care. And third-party payment causes huge rises in health care costs because patients don’t have any way to know how much procedures cost (since they aren’t footing the bill). Real health care reform would attack this problem.

[/quote]
^^^^This is exactly the problem. If insurance were for only big-ticket or catastrophic needs, people would be forced to check prices, which would in turn by necessity go down. I personally have a HSA insurance plan. Part of my paycheck goes pre-tax into my HSA. Until I meet my yearly deductible, I pay everything out of that account (essentially out of pocket). As a result, my wife and I ALWAYS get the costs of a medical service beforehand, and we try to do our own price/quality shopping for services. However, with the current system, it is very difficult to get accurate price data.

Medical insurance should be stripped down, heavily de-regulated, and the government should get the fuck out of the health care arena. If we have REAL market competition, we can have REAL price reductions. Look at the prices for elective procedures such as LASIK and cosmetic surgery. Prices have dropped considerably as more options and competition have become available. This is because these procedures are NOT covered, so consumers DO price shop.

You have the same issue right now with college tuitions. Massive federal and state financial aid and subsidies mean that hardly anyone pays out-of-pocket for school anymore. Thus, prices are syrocketing.

A government option will be an unmitigated disaster. Our government does NOTHING well or efficiently. People point to the military as an example for something the government does well. As a former military officer, I beg to differ. The things the military does well are run internally, and they succeed based on the warrior tradition and culture of excellence fostered by servicemembers themselves. In constrast, the civilian government oversight/control of the military has been abysmal. We haven’t really completely won a conflict since WWII, entirely due to limitations, restrictions, and meddling by politicians. I was wholly disappointed with the military healthcare system, and I project that any government-run system will be the same, but worse.

[quote]K2000 wrote:
What’s funny is that many of the same people who are outraged - OUTRAGED - that a penny of their taxes might pay for somebody else’s health care, are the very same people who will insist until they are blue in the face that America was founded on Christian values.

[/quote]

You know what else is funny? The other commenters are right: you have drunk deeply of the kool-aid:

[quote]
Harvard Study Shows Government Health Spending in U.S. Exceeds Costs in any Nation With National Health Insurance[/quote]

The US government, having proven itself to be utterly incompetent in this area, is trying to get MORE involved. And you support that.

[quote]AlisaV wrote:

Government is already in the business of health care when it subsidizes employer-provided insurance. Government created the system we’re in today, where insurance is practically synonymous with health care. It shouldn’t be. Insurance is an expensive way to pay for expenses you expect (like routine checkups and exams) because you’re paying for administrative overhead as well as the cost of care. And third-party payment causes huge rises in health care costs because patients don’t have any way to know how much procedures cost (since they aren’t footing the bill). Real health care reform would attack this problem.

The Republicans aren’t doing that. Nobody is doing that.)[/quote]

Well said on Insurance. I agree on your statement whole heartedly.

[quote]SWR wrote:
jawara wrote:

Um, actaully illegals ar going to be able to get access.

What page of the bill says they will get govt. funded health care?

Here’s a link if you want to flip through it:

Where does it state that it wont. Several Republicans has tried to put an amendment to the bill to make sure that illegals will not be covered, but Democrats will not allow it. Republicans have tried to work with the Democrats, but the Democrats have the majority right now so they are going to do what they want to do. So if the Democrats wont work with the Republicans I do not blame the Republicans for not wanting to vote for this bill.

This bill will force all medical personel to become unionized. Can you imagine the Union Dues that will go to the Union Bosses? Obama has to pay back his real friends first.

They should know better and I bet they do these partisan hacks-

Do yourself a favor and read this:

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=510506

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
SWR wrote:

What page of the bill says they will get govt. funded health care?

Here’s a link if you want to flip through it:

Where does it state that it wont. Several Republicans has tried to put an amendment to the bill to make sure that illegals will not be covered, but Democrats will not allow it. Republicans have tried to work with the Democrats, but the Democrats have the majority right now so they are going to do what they want to do. So if the Democrats wont work with the Republicans I do not blame the Republicans for not wanting to vote for this bill.

This bill will force all medical personel to become unionized. Can you imagine the Union Dues that will go to the Union Bosses? Obama has to pay back his real friends first.

Where does it state that it wont. [/quote]

Section 246 on page 143.

Feel free to edit your post.

Some suggestions:

“oops, guess I didn’t know what I was talking about”
“…”
“doh!”
“nvm”