[quote]Lorisco wrote:
mica617 wrote:
When I first read this thread, I was speechless. I can’t imagine anyone justifying the propaganda that was left (especially where it was left). Those poor kids! My heart goes out to them.
After reading what this thread evolved into, I think I’m going to have an aneurysm.
I’ve been the lone cracker at the “all-black” bbq. I enjoyed it and had great fellowship with good friends and good food. I didn’t feel awkward because no-one made an issue out of it.
I was also told (when trying to get a job after college) by an administrator of a certain hospital in south GA that I would have an easier time getting hired if I were a minority. That DID make me feel awkward.
My point is that there are idiots on both sides of the fence in these types of issues. Common sense, while rarely used in these cases, and a little goodwill toward fellow man, would solve a lot of these problems.
I agree with most of your post, but don’t think it’s a positve thing to promote racial slurs like “cracker”, whether or not you are using it for yourself. If you want to stop the division than start with dropping the divisive language.
[/quote]
It (cracker) was pulled from some of the replies to this forum. I used the term to make my point, but wouldn’t take offense to the term, as I don’t care. I also thought that typing “person-often-referred-to-as-white-but-never-is-actually-white-mostly-every-other-color-from-red-to-blue-to-greenish-to-“peachish”-so-I’ll-go-with-EuropeanAmerican(although I’ve never been to Europe)…” well, you get the point- would result in too much typing. Sorry to offend.
That must be the 3rd time you have used the word “erroneous”. Please, find a thesaurus. It isn’t that great of a word for this much use, especially when it doesn’t even apply.[/quote]
I would only need a thesaurus if I was looking for another word that meant the same thing.
Who said they didn’t have complex governments? Who said they were dumbass savages running around?
Heh. So how many wars actually took place, Pro X? Got an idea? A guess?
Many tribes were in a non-stop state of warfare with their rivals. Let’s face it, Pro X - you’re just winging it. You don’t have a clue how many wars took place or whether more wars were ‘needed’ to demonstrate that Indians were interested in conquest.
Nope, but of you think that Western culture was somehow equivalent in terms of science, etc. as the Native Americans, you would be erroneous - or whatever word you prefer that means wrong.
But they did - Indian tribes didn’t believe in property rights in the way that we do. If they wanted to control land, it had to be done through force. That is the very definition of ‘domination of their surroundings’.
But they did do it - just because you have a hunch they didn’t doesn’t make it so. Evidence of Indian wars over water rights, territory, tribal grievances, etc. - completely refutes your thesis that the Indians no interest in domination of land, other Indians, etc.
[quote]It isn’t just because europeans were so much smarter than every other culture. Much has to do with the desire to conquer which must have been built into that society. That is the point being made. You haven’t shown this to not be the case. Pointing out wars between tribes doesn’t show the desire to spread across the continent and own it.
[/quote]
Indian tribes wanted to control vast expanses of land. I already gave you the example of the Sioux that did exactly what you are saying no Indian culture did - they routinely bullied other tribes out of their respective areas so they could dominate the hunting grounds. That is a point-blank refutation of your idea - that Indian tribes never had it in their various societies to try and conquer - but what can I do if you pretend like it isn’t so?
You suck at this - at no point have I ever described Indians as foolish savages running about, acting stupidly. No, my point was to show that your idealized Mythic Savage - either African tribesmen or Indians unencumbered by ideas of conquest or environmental degradation or greed or imperialism - is not true by the standard of history. They were humans just like the rest of us, so the universal nature of humans apply to them as well.
Yes, and I have tried to tell you - the desire was built into Indian societies. The Sioux are just one example.
I am not here to say the Europeans weren’t expansionist - they certainly were. But your lazy paradigm - that Europeans are greedy imperialists and Indians were noble pacifists uninterested in dominating one another - is flatly wrong. No more, no less.
I am not here to say the Europeans weren’t expansionist - they certainly were. But your lazy paradigm - that Europeans are greedy imperialists and Indians were noble pacifists uninterested in dominating one another - is flatly wrong. No more, no less.[/quote]
I didn’t say anything of the sort. At least argue better by NOT putting words in my mouth. Simply put, there was no proof of any relation to “Manifest Destiny” in either the Native American culture or the Ancient Africans south of Egypt in terms of conquering and owning all of the land they walked on. You haven’t shown this to be the case no matter how many times you use the same word over and over. Wars between tribes don’t indicate a desire to OWN the continent, no matter how much you wish they did.
[quote]mica617 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
mica617 wrote:
When I first read this thread, I was speechless. I can’t imagine anyone justifying the propaganda that was left (especially where it was left). Those poor kids! My heart goes out to them.
After reading what this thread evolved into, I think I’m going to have an aneurysm.
I’ve been the lone cracker at the “all-black” bbq. I enjoyed it and had great fellowship with good friends and good food. I didn’t feel awkward because no-one made an issue out of it.
I was also told (when trying to get a job after college) by an administrator of a certain hospital in south GA that I would have an easier time getting hired if I were a minority. That DID make me feel awkward.
My point is that there are idiots on both sides of the fence in these types of issues. Common sense, while rarely used in these cases, and a little goodwill toward fellow man, would solve a lot of these problems.
I agree with most of your post, but don’t think it’s a positve thing to promote racial slurs like “cracker”, whether or not you are using it for yourself. If you want to stop the division than start with dropping the divisive language.
It (cracker) was pulled from some of the replies to this forum. I used the term to make my point, but wouldn’t take offense to the term, as I don’t care. I also thought that typing “person-often-referred-to-as-white-but-never-is-actually-white-mostly-every-other-color-from-red-to-blue-to-greenish-to-“peachish”-so-I’ll-go-with-EuropeanAmerican(although I’ve never been to Europe)…” well, you get the point- would result in too much typing. Sorry to offend.
-the artist formerly known as a cracker
[/quote]
No problem bro. You make my point very well in that labels are stupid and unnecessary. If you are legal, we are all American’s and that is the only label we need.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
mica617 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
mica617 wrote:
When I first read this thread, I was speechless. I can’t imagine anyone justifying the propaganda that was left (especially where it was left). Those poor kids! My heart goes out to them.
After reading what this thread evolved into, I think I’m going to have an aneurysm.
I’ve been the lone cracker at the “all-black” bbq. I enjoyed it and had great fellowship with good friends and good food. I didn’t feel awkward because no-one made an issue out of it.
I was also told (when trying to get a job after college) by an administrator of a certain hospital in south GA that I would have an easier time getting hired if I were a minority. That DID make me feel awkward.
My point is that there are idiots on both sides of the fence in these types of issues. Common sense, while rarely used in these cases, and a little goodwill toward fellow man, would solve a lot of these problems.
I agree with most of your post, but don’t think it’s a positve thing to promote racial slurs like “cracker”, whether or not you are using it for yourself. If you want to stop the division than start with dropping the divisive language.
It (cracker) was pulled from some of the replies to this forum. I used the term to make my point, but wouldn’t take offense to the term, as I don’t care. I also thought that typing “person-often-referred-to-as-white-but-never-is-actually-white-mostly-every-other-color-from-red-to-blue-to-greenish-to-“peachish”-so-I’ll-go-with-EuropeanAmerican(although I’ve never been to Europe)…” well, you get the point- would result in too much typing. Sorry to offend.
-the artist formerly known as a cracker
No problem bro. You make my point very well in that labels are stupid and unnecessary. If you are legal, we are all American’s and that is the only label we need.
[/quote]
That’s amazing how you still manage to throw just a liiiiiittle bit of racism in your “why can’t we all just get along” post.
I think black racists are more entertaining than the kkk and the like.
Just look at luis farrakan.
Oh and im sorry X but regardless, of this gentle pacifism displayed by the africans, they horribly suck today. They aren’t gentle or pacifist by any means today, they dont deserve to even own a machete b/c it will probably be used to hurt somebody else.
[quote]lumbernac wrote:
I think black racists are more entertaining than the kkk and the like.
Just look at luis farrakan.
Oh and im sorry X but regardless, of this gentle pacifism displayed by the africans, they horribly suck today. They aren’t gentle or pacifist by any means today, they dont deserve to even own a machete b/c it will probably be used to hurt somebody else. [/quote]
Judging by your posts, I wouldn’t trust YOU with any sharp objects or even behind the wheel of a car for that matter. If you are the symbolic representation of progress in the human race, how can you possibly speak so negatively of anyone else?
[quote]ALDurr wrote:
USAFMTI wrote:
Pathetic! A man posts a legitimate gripe about a personal issue that impacted his family. Then some ignorant pseudo-educated clown (owen dent) mounts his soapbox and spouts out a mouthful of garbage. What you should have done, owen dent, is shut the fuck up; you obviously have nothing good to say. This post was probably the man’s way to vent or some sort of coping mechanism. Offer support, not judgement. If anything, you should judge yourself. Maybe you already have, so you feel obligated to defend yourself while you put someone else down. Being proud of your culture is fine; imposing your warped mindset on others isn’t. The mere fact that you have to announce that you have had many black friends (exactly how many), makes you suspect. Actually, I am surprised you have any friends. Whoopie! You (a white person) did some good things for some black people. Once again, why point it out; trying to convince someone of how non-racist you are? Who gives a shit. Some white men marry black women yet are prejudice against black men; vice-versa applies. The bottom line is the man’s children suffered a blow to the psyche due in part to an ignorant ass like yourself that wanted to terrorize a neighorhood and spread ignorance. That’s the very thing I am over here in Iraq trying to combat. Nevertheless, this might be a blessing in disguise, because it’s an opportunity to prepare children for what they are sure to face; especially after reading these posts.
AF Sergeant
All I can say to this is, Amen! Thank you for post. Keep your head down and stay safe over there.[/quote]
I am not here to say the Europeans weren’t expansionist - they certainly were. But your lazy paradigm - that Europeans are greedy imperialists and Indians were noble pacifists uninterested in dominating one another - is flatly wrong. No more, no less.
I didn’t say anything of the sort. At least argue better by NOT putting words in my mouth. Simply put, there was no proof of any relation to “Manifest Destiny” in either the Native American culture or the Ancient Africans south of Egypt in terms of conquering and owning all of the land they walked on. You haven’t shown this to be the case no matter how many times you use the same word over and over. Wars between tribes don’t indicate a desire to OWN the continent, no matter how much you wish they did. [/quote]
Just wanted to interject a couple of points. First, there is no way we can determine the intent of the Native Americans because they fell victim to the settlers(whose intent we can determine.) It is possible that some tribes did possess the “Manifest Destiny” attitude that Europeans had, but they did not possess the means to achieve their goal. The Europeans had the benefit of greater warfighting tools, an adapted immune system that protected them from plague and a barbaric motivation that they chalked up to divine intervention. Regardless of what Native Americans’ intentions were prior to the arrival of the settlers, their ability to colonize paled in comparison to their conquerers’.
My second point is: what does this dumb shit have to do with the fact that a man’s children/ neighborhood were terrorized? How does this bullshit argument you all have turned this into help him address the real issue? People are ignorant enough to attempt to impose their will on others, by employing any method available. Namely, racists will sink low enough to pass out literature in a neighborhood that doesn’t even represent a viable target audience. Terrorism, yes; stupid, yes; effective, maybe (after all, we are still talking about it).
There’s a lot of prejudice against racists, you know
Yeah! Wreckless is right! You guys are the assholes for discriminating against people who are clearly stupid and ignorant!
Just because someone doesn’t read books is no reason to think they’re less than you! Just because someone hasn’t the slightest idea what he’s talking about doesn’t make his opinion any less valid than your’s!
And…I wasn’t going to do this until I saw this post, but Lumbernac invited me to chat yesterday and told me some very interesting things: did you know the British ruled South Africa? Neither did I, what with my education and all.
Neuter the dumb.[/quote]
LOL. You’re right, though, I shouldn’t treat stupid people like they’re, um, stupid.
One of my fondest dreams is that stupid people will be rendered sterile by solar radiation. Or by staring at the sun too long. Whatever works.
[quote]USAFMTI wrote:
Professor X wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
I am not here to say the Europeans weren’t expansionist - they certainly were. But your lazy paradigm - that Europeans are greedy imperialists and Indians were noble pacifists uninterested in dominating one another - is flatly wrong. No more, no less.
I didn’t say anything of the sort. At least argue better by NOT putting words in my mouth. Simply put, there was no proof of any relation to “Manifest Destiny” in either the Native American culture or the Ancient Africans south of Egypt in terms of conquering and owning all of the land they walked on. You haven’t shown this to be the case no matter how many times you use the same word over and over. Wars between tribes don’t indicate a desire to OWN the continent, no matter how much you wish they did.
Just wanted to interject a couple of points. First, there is no way we can determine the intent of the Native Americans because they fell victim to the settlers(whose intent we can determine.) It is possible that some tribes did possess the “Manifest Destiny” attitude that Europeans had, but they did not possess the means to achieve their goal. The Europeans had the benefit of greater warfighting tools, an adapted immune system that protected them from plague and a barbaric motivation that they chalked up to divine intervention. Regardless of what Native Americans’ intentions were prior to the arrival of the settlers, their ability to colonize paled in comparison to their conquerers’.
My second point is: what does this dumb shit have to do with the fact that a man’s children/ neighborhood were terrorized? How does this bullshit argument you all have turned this into help him address the real issue? People are ignorant enough to attempt to impose their will on others, by employing any method available. Namely, racists will sink low enough to pass out literature in a neighborhood that doesn’t even represent a viable target audience. Terrorism, yes; stupid, yes; effective, maybe (after all, we are still talking about it).
AF Sergeant[/quote]
Good points. Apologies to heavythrower if I helped to hijack the thread.
Maybe the best thing that came out of this incident is that we ARE talking about it. I think prejudice (which derives from pre-judgement) is the pink elephant of American culture. Talking about it is probably the only way to mitigate its effects.
Who knows what sort of civilization may have developed in North America or sub-Saharan Africa if there had been no interference from European invaders.
[quote]USAFMTI wrote:
what does this dumb shit have to do with the fact that a man’s children/ neighborhood were terrorized? How does this bullshit argument you all have turned this into help him address the real issue? [/quote]
It doesn’t at all and my goal wasn’t to help him address the real issue. He should be able to do that on his own. This thread wasn’t “shocking” to me. I feel sorry that any kid has to experience that, but it isn’t like this was new info or some experience I had never heard of before. What amazes me are comments I have heard when bringing up certain instances related to me forgetting about it or to stop making a big deal of it. Racism exists. Why do you give this one instance any more significance over what anyone else has experienced as a minority? Either care about all of them, or quit pretending as if you care so much about this one.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
I think black racists are more entertaining than the kkk and the like.
Just look at luis farrakan.
Oh and im sorry X but regardless, of this gentle pacifism displayed by the africans, they horribly suck today. They aren’t gentle or pacifist by any means today, they dont deserve to even own a machete b/c it will probably be used to hurt somebody else.
Judging by your posts, I wouldn’t trust YOU with any sharp objects or even behind the wheel of a car for that matter. If you are the symbolic representation of progress in the human race, how can you possibly speak so negatively of anyone else?[/quote]
ProX, I dont have any weapons and don’t have a use for them either. You wouldnt trust me w/ sharp objects? thats great. When have i ever threatened anybody ? Look at my posts if you think you may find something i dont. Thats my point really. Africa is a violent, and almost lawless place and it STILL needs civilization and i dont have to be perfect to point this out b/c people are dying there all the time and they shouldnt have to die just b/c they are members of a different tribe than the guys down the street but africans look at people that way unfortunately.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
USAFMTI wrote:
what does this dumb shit have to do with the fact that a man’s children/ neighborhood were terrorized? How does this bullshit argument you all have turned this into help him address the real issue?
It doesn’t at all and my goal wasn’t to help him address the real issue. He should be able to do that on his own. This thread wasn’t “shocking” to me. I feel sorry that any kid has to experience that, but it isn’t like this was new info or some experience I had never heard of before. What amazes me are comments I have heard when bringing up certain instances related to me forgetting about it or to stop making a big deal of it. Racism exists. Why do you give this one instance any more significance over what anyone else has experienced as a minority? Either care about all of them, or quit pretending as if you care so much about this one.[/quote]
He wasn’t trying to “shock”. He was trying to share an experience for whatever reason. If he wanted to do it on his own, he wouldn’t have posted this thread. Your shit happens attitude is the very reason people suffer in silence instead of expressing themselves. It’s called venting. There is nothing profound about this post but it does provoke thought. This event is not more significant to humanity or to me than any other; it is more significant to the man who started the thread and his children.
As for trying to deflect your insecurities by calling my character into question, good try. I won’t defend myself because you are not my judge, and I choose to do instead of say. I give back to the community in my way and I don’t seek your approval. Nevertheless, I actually agreed with most of your comments in this post. I just think that you should accept the post for what it was intended to be: a provocative thought, in an open forum. Provide feedback, but keep it relevant to the issue.
[quote]USAFMTI wrote:
He wasn’t trying to “shock”. He was trying to share an experience for whatever reason. If he wanted to do it on his own, he wouldn’t have posted this thread. Your shit happens attitude is the very reason people suffer in silence instead of expressing themselves. It’s called venting. There is nothing profound about this post but it does provoke thought. This event is not more significant to humanity or to me than any other; it is more significant to the man who started the thread and his children.[/quote]
You completely missed my point in your rush to play superhero. The point is, I as well as others have given experiences, some even on this forum, and was told I was making more of it or that I should forget about it or not bring it up. Again, either everyone should allow everyone to VENT instead of trying to act as if blacks are making up racism, or they should ignore ALL OF IT and quit acting like they care at all. What makes this story any different? What is the defining factor that allows this post to be sympathized with while deflecting it from any other source? Would you be as vocal if, instead of children, this was a grown man who experienced this alone?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
USAFMTI wrote:
He wasn’t trying to “shock”. He was trying to share an experience for whatever reason. If he wanted to do it on his own, he wouldn’t have posted this thread. Your shit happens attitude is the very reason people suffer in silence instead of expressing themselves. It’s called venting. There is nothing profound about this post but it does provoke thought. This event is not more significant to humanity or to me than any other; it is more significant to the man who started the thread and his children.
You completely missed my point in your rush to play superhero. The point is, I as well as others have given experiences, some even on this forum, and was told I was making more of it or that I should forget about it or not bring it up. Again, either everyone should allow everyone to VENT instead of trying to act as if blacks are making up racism, or they should ignore ALL OF IT and quit acting like they care at all. What makes this story any different? What is the defining factor that allows this post to be sympathized with while deflecting it from any other source? Would you be as vocal if, instead of children, this was a grown man who experienced this alone?
[/quote]
Superhero; haha, nice one. I think you’re too smart for your own good. You’re over analyzing the issue, and you “missed the point”. I am not defending any issue more than another. I willfully read a post and felt I could contribute by providing pertinent/opinionated input; mine is not more valuable than yours. You want to share your experiences and vent? Start YOUR OWN THREAD, unless it relates to one at hand.
Just because you got your feelings hurt on previous posts and no one wanted to hear you rant doesn’t mean people can’t vent in this forum. Provide “relevant” feedback or shut your pie hole. What I was concerned with is that you turned this post into something it wasn’t. You have a tendency to do that. Now you’ve drawn me in and made me do the same. Good job. One for you-none for me. Happy now?
AF Sergeant…Out
P.S. You talk a lot but don’t say much; I am through with you. I refuse to argue with a fool like you because people watching won’t know who is who.
[quote]USAFMTI wrote:
What I was concerned with is that you turned this post into something it wasn’t. You have a tendency to do that. Now you’ve drawn me in and made me do the same. Good job. One for you-none for me. Happy now?
AF Sergeant…Out
[/quote]
I turned this thread into something it wasn’t? How did I do that by responding to others? Every thread on this forum has the potential to change direction. Nearly every thread does. Why the hell does this offend you on this thread to this degree? There is nothing wrong with bringing a thread back to the original topic, but there is very much something wrong with acting like any other discussion that branches from the main topic is “against the rules”. Grow up.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
USAFMTI wrote:
What I was concerned with is that you turned this post into something it wasn’t. You have a tendency to do that. Now you’ve drawn me in and made me do the same. Good job. One for you-none for me. Happy now?
AF Sergeant…Out
I turned this thread into something it wasn’t? How did I do that by responding to others? Every thread on this forum has the potential to change direction. Nearly every thread does. Why the hell does this offend you on this thread to this degree? There is nothing wrong with bringing a thread back to the original topic, but there is very much something wrong with acting like any other discussion that branches from the main topic is “against the rules”. Grow up.[/quote]
Actually…if you recall, I agreed with most of your comments. I don’t disagree with a change in direction and I haven’t been offended by anything said here. I do object to a post being dominated by said “change in direction” instead of the topic at hand. I don’t even claim that your comments are uninteresting, I just feel they went too far in the wrong direction. As for growing up…We all should hope to continue to grow, because when that stops you’re either dead or might as well be.
[quote]USAFMTI wrote:
Professor X wrote:
USAFMTI wrote:
What I was concerned with is that you turned this post into something it wasn’t. You have a tendency to do that. Now you’ve drawn me in and made me do the same. Good job. One for you-none for me. Happy now?
AF Sergeant…Out
I turned this thread into something it wasn’t? How did I do that by responding to others? Every thread on this forum has the potential to change direction. Nearly every thread does. Why the hell does this offend you on this thread to this degree? There is nothing wrong with bringing a thread back to the original topic, but there is very much something wrong with acting like any other discussion that branches from the main topic is “against the rules”. Grow up.
Actually…if you recall, I agreed with most of your comments. I don’t disagree with a change in direction and I haven’t been offended by anything said here. I do object to a post being dominated by said “change in direction” instead of the topic at hand. I don’t even claim that your comments are uninteresting, I just feel they went too far in the wrong direction. As for growing up…We all should hope to continue to grow, because when that stops you’re either dead or might as well be.
AF Sergeant…Out
[/quote]
If we don’t disagree then why would you accuse me of changing the direction of the thread? I haven’t even commented much on the original post for the primary reason that my name already came up twice in this thread before I even responded once.
Again, this situation didn’t suirprise me at all. I would guess that most black kids, with the exception of possibly those most recently born in the 90’s, were raised with the knowledge that shit like that happens and will happen. I am more surprised that his kids made it to that age without ever dealing with that issue before. Maybe the wind is changing…or perhaps some people just ignore what’s out there if they don’t deal with it personally.
