Its really not hard to see how systemic racism is passed down in society, or how the effects of our history of racial inequality still have lingering effects today.
One must truly be blind to reality if they have the “Everybody starts at zero so its a fair game” mentality.
Let me ask you kids something: When you die, is all your stuff buried with you? Or does it go to your family?
So if you got rich thanks to owning slaves… and then you died… would that money just vanish, or would it go to your children?
And if your childred did recieve that money you got thanks to slavery, would you somehow argue that THEY didnt benefit from slavery since THEY didn’t own the slaves?
And if a white family was given unfair preference in the opprotunity to buy a home in a “white” neighborhood, did the house get demolished when the owners died or when blacks were now allowed to move into that neighborhood? Or did the house become part of the estate, passed down through generations?
See, the thing is, at no point is the slate ever wiped clean and everyone gets a fair start. This hypothetical “equality” doesnt actually exist in reality.
One must truly be blind to reality if they have the “Everybody starts at zero so its a fair game” mentality.
Why don’t you understand how the system works yet?
Why don’t you understand that no one starts at zero, if that means everyone begins with the same amount. Not one single person has the same as the next. Some are born with better parents, some with no parents at all to take care of them. Some are born wealthy, others poor. Some tall some short. Some with IQ’s in the 170’s other with IQ scores barely average.
The idea is to try to make it regardless of what you were born with, or without.
THERE IS NO LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR ANYONE.
To isolate an entire group of people and to say that they are not good enough to do it on their own, hence we have to give them a “government push” does far more harm to them as a race. And it also builds resentment among all of the groups who don’t have those special little advantages.
Now reread the above until you understand it.
[/quote]
I understand it just fine. You’re trying to equate a racist society (where one is at a disadvantage simply for being black) with “some people are tall, some people are short”.
Sure, its easy, as a white person, who is at an unfair advantage simply for being considered “white”, to shrug and say “Oh well, thats life, it just aint fair! :-D” If you ever had an idea of the experience of being on the other side of the fence, you’d see how your racist attitude does more to hurt the black community than social/government programs.
Calling them “special little advantages” just makes you more of an idiot. Its like watching someone have their legs broken by someone else, then calling the wheelchair they get from the hospital a “special little advantage”. You DO realize that the group that has benefited most from affirmative action is WHITE WOMEN, right?
You’ve done little more than spout the same racist stance I’ve seen time and again: Black people are just lazy, dont take personal responsibility, want hand outs for something that has no relevance today, life is unfair so they should just deal with the racism they face, its not THAT bad they just lie and make it sound worse, etc.
Ouch, you called me stupid, that hurts sooo bad. Its an illustration of what you refuse to admit: That benefits of race based slavery still exist today.
Once again, the white man who just happens to benefit from racism smiles, shrugs his shoulders, puts his hands up and says “Ohhhh well ^_^…” And then wonders why black people dont take his “anybody can make it” philosophy.
So you at least admit, then, that you benefit from it… you just, now, claim “thats life”.
If no race was at an unfair advantage, then yes, government programs would be a “special benefit”. But since there IS an unfair advantage for white people (thanks to the history of racial oppression in America), that “special benefit” only comes at a major disadvantage.
The same way, all other things equal, it would be great to get two months off from work. However, getting two months off because you were in an accident and almost died isnt a “special benefit”, since the “benefit” (getting time off from work) only comes at a steep cost (getting seriously injured).
The same way the “benefits” you talk about (government programs) come only at a steep cost (dealing with systemic racism as a black person).
Furthermore, its funny that the issue of white people having advantages thanks to slavery is “just life” in your book, but government programs that would give any sort of advantage to a black person is a terrible thing.
Trust me, your attitude is far worse. First you claim there is no racism, then basically admit that you benefit from racism, but since you didnt create the system, you’re not about to give any of that benefit up (see your “If my grandfather faked an injury” analogy).
Government programs: Welfare, section 8 housing, affirmative action, are Government racism. This is a form of liberal slavery. Create a sense of entitlement and remove self-motivation. Nobody will reach their potential when there is no motivation to do so.
Poor whites and minorities that make it out of the cycle of poverty do not rely on these programs. It becomes an endless cycle. I would not wish that upon any individual or race. It’s tragic.
Sure, its easy, as a white person, who is at an unfair advantage simply for being considered “white”, to shrug and say “Oh well, thats life, it just aint fair! :-D” If you ever had an idea of the experience of being on the other side of the fence, you’d see how your racist attitude does more to hurt the black community than social/government programs.
The sort of racism that you are talking about died a long time ago. What you are promoting is government sponsored racism which is even worse.
[/quote]
No, it didn’t, its alive and well today, and you’re kicking back and benefiting from it with an “Oh well, not my problem” attitude.
What about the millions of black people who were slaves in the US? What about the generations of blacks who were considered second class citizens? What about the following generations, TODAY, that grew/grow up in poverty thanks to the previous generations being slaves/second class citizens?
What about blacks who couldnt own land or vote? What about the fact that most land in the US is owned by whites, whites have far more buying power/wealth, and the VAST majority of political power (thanks to the fact that ONLY white males could vote/own land)?
What about the black guy who gets treated like a criminal his whole life? What about the white guy who, thanks to a rich history of white priviledge, gets the best education/tutoring/etc, while a poor black kid either passes or fails without extra help?
What about the white guy whos great great great great great grandfather owned slaves and used the money to start a profitible family business, who is about to take over that business? What about the white kids whos parents could afford to send them to summer camp/afterschool programs/etc, so they could stay out of trouble, while the poor black kids had to stay with their 86 year old grandmother who wasnt physically capable of keeping an eye on them?
Does that sound fair? Because thats the reality of America, hoss.
What was it you said, about if your grandfather cheated someone else years ago?
THATS LIFE?
As a white person he still benefits from being white in America. But “oh well, thats life” right?
Hahahahaha. Nevermind that having a white sounding last name has been proven to get you more job interviews. Nevermind that he doesnt have to overcome stereotypes of being a rude, ignorant, lazy criminal. Nevermind that the vast majority of people in positions of power (business/political/law enforcement) share the same skin color as him.
The one time being black acts as an advantage for someone else acts as a disadvantage for him, so “society is punishing him for being white”.
Yeah, real harsh punishment. Pull your head out of your ass.
Yep, racism is all done and over with, everybody is considered equal. Nevermind that most black people are poor, its their own fault. Nevermind that the vast majority of rich people are white, its just because they worked harder and were smarter. Couldnt have anything to do with the fact that white people owned black people years ago. Couldnt have anything to do with black people not being able to vote or own land or go to the same schools as whites, couldnt have anything to do with people being told blacks were inferior, couldnt have anything to do with blacks not being allowed to own homes in certain areas. Couldnt be any correlation there. Nope, none at all. Suddenly poof there are no lingering effects of racism.
Its ok though. People like you will try to keep the racist system in place so they can benefit from it, and people like me will continue going against it. Thats just life, I guess.
What dont you understand yet, moron? The playing field is NOT level. Those who are white get an unfair advantage, those who are male get an unfair advantage.
Pretending that there isnt an unfair advantage (when you just HAPPEN to be the one getting the advantage) is dishonest and stupid. No wonder its your position.
What you’re just afraid to admit, Mick, is that you DIDNT overcome near as much as you’d like to think you did, that you had FAR more help then you’d like to admit. But I suppose that would be like sand in your lube when you’re jerking off thinking about how “I worked my way out of poverty so anybody can do it!!”
That would be ideal, yes. But in reality, Mick, thats not the case. In reality, white people are considered more competent than blacks, even when they have done nothing to prove it. In reality, a man is more likely to get a promotion to manager of a company where ONLY men have been in management positions, where the company meetings are full of men.
You still refuse to see the connection between what blacks face TODAY and the history of racism and racial oppression in the US.
As long as you stand to benefit from being white, you’re ok with it. But on the off chance that you MIGHT be one of the VERY FEW white people who actually miss out on an opprotunity because a comparatively qualified black person gets it… oh hell you wont stand for that! Injustice! Outrage! Unfair! We need to leave the playing field slanted towards whit— I mean totally level!
Sure, as long as you falsely believe that racism is a thing of the past.
False.
hahahahhahahaaha. False. Saying that white people dont deserve an unfair advantage in life just for being white isnt “taking advantage of them”.
As white people, we get a better quality of life in America than black people. And that is wrong, unfair, racist, and can and should be changed. YES, even at the perceived expense of white people.
They aren’t. If anything, they have a major advantage just for being white. And on the off chance that they ARE passed over because a black person got the job, they’ll STILL have FAR more opprotunity in front of them then a black person ever has.
Simple: The benefits of whiteness outweigh the chance they’ll be the “victim” of affirmative action. By far.
Oh yeah, I forgot. There is no racism, only benefits to being black in America.
Idiot.
Black people dont take responsibility and are criminals.
Any other racist statements you’d like to make?
Where is the special rights black people get? Oh, the very few black people in the country who got a job over a white person who scored 5 points higher on a test. I bet you wish you were black with those kinds of benefits.
What professors, fool?
But, totally a coincinence here… but black people are still poor, still considered criminals who dont take personal responsibility, the rich class is still mostly white, whites still hold most positions of power, whites still get a better quality of life than black people…
nope, I dont see how any of that relates to slavery at all.
Again, taking away an unfair advantage is not punishment, idiot.
Are they still considered white?
Yes.
Do they reap the benefits of whiteness in America?
Yes.
Should they have unfair advantages simply for being white?
No.
You arent being punished. If anything, you’ve been getting rewarded. Things you take for granted, black people cannot. You get the reward of not having the cops assume you’re a criminal, you get the reward of not going into a job interview with stereotypes to overcome, etc, etc.
You benefit from it. I benefit from it.
Anyone who is considered “white” in America benefits from it.
So what you’re saying, basically, is that you get an unfair advantage, but since you didnt do anything wrong, nobody should take it away from you.
Kind of like if I steal a car and give it to you, the cops shouldnt take the car from YOU since YOU didn’t steal anything, so why should they punish YOU if YOU didnt do anything wrong?
In all sincerity, why should you continue to reap the benefits of slavery?
What would annoy me would be your inability to connect the dots between:
Hundreds of years of outright racial oppression
and
Oppressed race being in poor condition.
Oh yeah, I forgot, life is a free ride for a black man. Give me a fucking break.
Again: Its all black peoples fault, they are to blame for their situation. Just erase all those generations that they didnt have rights here, because nobody still believes that black people are inferior, and CERTAINLY no one who believes black people are inferior is in ANY position to affect their lives at ALL…
Fool.
BUT OH MY GOD THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER SPECIAL BENEFIT FOR BLACK PEOPLE AND THATS EVIL AND RACIST HOW DARE YOU TRY TO HELP BLACK PEOPLE THAT MEANS YOU ARE THE RACIST WHO THINKS THEY ARE INFERIOR grrrr I are angry white man!
But you’re against a program wheras SOMETIMES a black person gets a MINOR advantage for being black, and results in getting them a job or into a school? You make no fucking sense.
More “It cant be changed so why try to change it?” bullshit from the white man in America.
Bullshit.
hahahahahahahaahahahaha. Special rights, thats a good one.
You mean like when they were the only ones who could vote?
Or when they were the only ones who could own property?
You mean when they owned white people AS property?
You mean… oh wait… I guess they didnt get those special rights after all.
What special rights did they get? Oh yeah, in some cases, a black person with comparable skills got a job or into a school before a white person did. How fantastic.
Poor innocent whites, when will we ever get a break???
Oh the shallowness of your mind will never cease to amaze me. “Durh he disagree with me, so he must not think for he self. He just saying what professor at college tell him to say. If he think for he self, he think same as me.”
Fool.
Gasp! The ramifications of a few hundred years of outright racial oppression havent suddenly disappeared in 50 years! fucking G-A-S-P!
Again, if I stole a car and gave it to you, would the you claim the cops were punishing you just because YOU didnt steal the car?
And equality isnt something that just suddenly happens overnight (as much as you’d like to believe it did). It takes a little more time to undo the harm of race based slavery, second class citizenship, etc, etc.
Go ahead, keep changing the story and playing semantics.
“First you claim there is no substantial racism”… better?
You still dont see it? How many times do I have to explain it before you open your eyes and see that being white in america is an advantage?
Boo hoo, you’re going to take away all the stuff I get but didnt earn!
So tell me this, why is a white sounding last name more likely to get a call about a job?
Why are most rich people white?
Why are most black people poor?
Why are most politicians white?
Why are black people more likely to be searched when pulled over by the cops?
All coincidence? All just lazy criminal blacks not taking responsibility? All just white people working harder?
More bullshit.
I’ve been giving you examples this whole fucking time, and you ignore them.
Things are slanted against black people because a black person is far more likely to grow up poor and is far less likely to have the same educational opprotunities and/or job opprotunities as a white person. Is that specific enough for you?
Nevermind that having a white sounding last name has been proven to get you more job interviews.
You mean when black people name their kid “Lakisha” it turns out that they are keeping her out of a high paying job at IBM?
Now who’d a thought it?
[/quote]
Succinctly put.
And illustrates my point PERFECTLY
You admit (dont try to go back on it now, Mick) that having a name like “Lakisha” makes getting a high paying job much harder.
Now why, Mick? Why would having a particular name, like Lakisha, keep someone out of a high paying job at IBM?
Now, go ahead, think up some bullshit answer.
Now, the truth:
Lakisha is a black name. Seeing the name Lakisha on an application gives the message that the person who put the application in is black. And, as such, stupid, lazy, ignorant, and probably a criminal.
All the stereotypes YOU keep harping on.
There you go, Mick. A PERFECT example of the racism in America, provided by YOU.
And then, on top of everything, you blame the parents for giving her that name. Because, clearly, they should give her a white sounding name so she has an equal shot at the job.
I’d really, really like to see you try to pull the “angry, paranoid white man” routine after admitting that having a black sounding name DOES keep people from getting high paying jobs.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I quit. Mick, you are beyond help.
I don’t blame you for quitting the thread. I wouldn’t want to try to defend points like these either:
Actually claiming the people who live in 2007 should pay for the acts of those who enslaved blacks in 140 years ago. Thus punishing those who had nothing to do with it, creating an environment of reverse discrimination.
[/quote]
Why should a girl named Lakisha be punished for having a black sounding name?
When did I say that?
Strawman number three. I never said there arent successful black people or that its IMPOSSIBLE for a black person to be successful despite the racism they face.
Clearly the only way you can interpret things is by building laughable strawmen.
Nevermind that having a white sounding last name has been proven to get you more job interviews.
You mean when black people name their kid “Lakisha” it turns out that they are keeping her out of a high paying job at IBM?
Now who’d a thought it?
Succinctly put.
And illustrates my point PERFECTLY
You admit (dont try to go back on it now, Mick) that having a name like “Lakisha” makes getting a high paying job much harder.
Now why, Mick? Why would having a particular name, like Lakisha, keep someone out of a high paying job at IBM?
Now, go ahead, think up some bullshit answer.
Hey stupid …I knew you were a liar and a loser based upon your sick views on other threads. But I never thought you were a race bater as well.
I first joked about that name. And then I went on to give examples of many successful women of African American decent who have succeeded.
But you left that part out huh?
Basically you’re liberal scum.
[/quote]
haha. Resorting to name calling. Cute.
Why do I have to keep explaining to you that just because some people have overcome oppression DOESN’T mean the oppression doesn’t exist?!
Why cant you understand that?
Oh, thats right, you need to twist everything into strawmen.
I’ll try to reiterate my stance, and I’ll make it simple and hard to misinterpret:
Black in America continue to be oppressed because of the history of racial inequality in America. Despite the fact that we have come a long way in the last 200 years, we still have a long way to go. Yes, some have overcome the oppression, but that doesnt mean the oppression doesnt exist.
You also didnt explain why LAKISHA cant get a high paying job at IBM, other than the fact that she has a black sounding name.
Claiming that government programs are the “Cure” for racism. In fact, it could very well be the opposite.
When did I say that?
Oh then even though they are not the answer you want more of them?
Great logic junior.
[/quote]
When did I say I want more of them?
No, fool, black people should HAVE TO “rise to the occasion and overcome racism” any more than a white person should. No one should.
What about that don’t you understand?
When did I refuse to admit it?
Not saying something and refusing to admit it are different things. You didnt say that you ate a sandwich yesterday! You refuse to admit that you ate a sandwich yesterday! You dirty liberal liar!
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
black people should HAVE TO “rise to the occasion and overcome racism” any more than a white person should. No one should.
What about that don’t you understand?
Okay, all name calling aside, I’ll do my level best to briefly explain why you’re wrong here. Please read this with an open mind. Forget what you think you know about me and read this through the eyes of someone who cares, written by someone else who also cares:
You said it best: No one should have to overcome racism.
You cannot make up for something that happened 140 years ago by doing the very thing that you are stating that you are against to yet another race. You want to discriminate against an entire race of people, who had nothing to do with slavery, in order to make up for discrimination against an entire race of people. And not only isn’t it working, it’s perpetuating racism by shear resentment of whites toward blacks. Granted it’s nothing compared to slavery, but why do we have to promote resentment and racism toward an entire race in order to fix any racism that still exists toward blacks?
It’s fundamentally wrong.
Think about it.
Anything which puts a white person at a disadvantage is also racism? Why doesn’t this type of racism seem real to you? You must realize that this is a fact. You have shrugged it off as if it doesn’t count. Again, it’s not nearly as bad as what blacks have contended with, however, it still exists and it’s wrong.
And in addition to this black people are demeaned by the various programs which basically state they are not good enough to compete on their own. And I have pointed out all of the black success stories which have occurred through the years. And more are happening each day.
You seem to want to perpetuates racism, but also inadvertently (I’m sure) want to continue to harm black people with bullshit programs that most don’t want, and don’t need.
And finally, why haven’t these programs which have been in effect for nearly 40 years helped the black community? In fact, they have hurt blacks deeply. Entire generations are on welfare and crime is rampant compared to other races.
As I stated earlier, when something does not work in business they dump it. When it doesn’t work in government they double their efforts and pour more money into the same losing idea.
If you train do you continue to perform the same program over and over when it’s been proven NOT to work?
Seriously, think it over.
I’m for helping the black community and I gave one suggestion earlier. But we cannot continue to do what has shown conclusively NOT to work.
Surely you are logical enough to see this.
[/quote]
I understand your point.
You see a situation where, otherwise, a black person and a white person have equal opprotunity.
To introduce something like affirmative action into a situation like that would be unfair. Just as a white person shouldnt get an advantage for being white, a black person shouldnt get an advantage for being black.
The problem with this logic is that the playing field does not start out equal. Whites do have an advantage. Whites dont have to worry about a white sounding name keeping them out of a high paying job at IBM.
Whites dont have to worry about being judged “as a white person” when they go in for a job interview.
I’m not sure if I think affirmative action is the best way to acheive what AA is trying to do: speed up the process of equality by helping black people get jobs and get into schools.
Yes, I can understand the frustration of a white person who is the “victim” of AA. But the fact is that that white person STILL has more opprotunity than most black people.
But by this time we’re just reiterating the same points: You, seeing an otherwise equal society, and me, seeing an otherwise unequal society. Perhaps I’m just not qualified to get these messages across.
Here. Go here, and read these interviews. They’re by black people who have studied the history of black people in the united states. They say many of the things I’ve been saying.
"But the problem is that a system of racial discrimination over a long period of time can create racial inequality, a system of racial inequality that will linger on even after racial barriers come down. That is because the most disadvantaged blacks victimized by decades and centuries of racial oppression do not have resources that allow them to compete effectively with other people. They are at a disadvantage.