Racial Rantings and Baseball

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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Concerning racism, I think that there are different kinds. There is the kind that is born by ethnic conflict, such as what you might find on some online boards between indians and paks, or jews and muslims, even though I have seen them keep it civil offline the mere fact that they do it online leads me to beleive that they do have some racial animosity that is not totally unwarranted by either side.

I would say that the illeagal immigration issue, one who has been dominated by the voices of caucasian and hispanic people, is this kind. Sure, we here of some derogatory words, about the hispanics, but it would be simply naive to think that they don’t say the same kinds of things about whites. Which is worse? I have no idea, but both sides are wrong.

Secondly, there is the kind that is NOT born by a cemptitive kind of ehtnic conflict. Look at the situation caused by the importation of african american slaves. Blacks and whites aren’t really competing for jobs so much, it is more of a matter of whether or not the blacks are given their due respect as a race.

Has there been differences in crime rates for America based on race? Should we even have an affirmative action kind of system?

Black people still feel like b!tches, simply because they haven’t yet been able to equal the socioeconomic levels of whites. White people don’t give black people as much respect b/c of the past racism, and because of differing socioeconomic levels.

Apologies for being so blunt in this last paragraph but until black people can get to our level, they really can’t demand as much respect that they’d like but that doesn’t matter, because this is a thing that we need. Remember, a rising tide lifts ALL boats.

Oh, and I used to be kind of racist myself, but hey that is ok if you can figure out a better way to live. I’ve even gotten in some arguments on here with prof x a while ago, and just sent him a PM explaining my misbehaviors and why I am different, and if he could offer some thougt on not immediately falling back on racism when evaluating people. Hopefully, he’ll get back to me.

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[quote]Mick28 wrote:
A bunch of garbage that really made no sense and avoided the issues
[/quote]

You’re not even worth debating point for point since you didn’t even really make a point. So instead, do us all a favor and tell us how a man of you aptitude escaped poverty. You know, so we all have a template – sort of a guide to follow.

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[quote]texasguy1 wrote: For the most part, racism is long dead and contained to trailer parks in the backwoods of W. Virginia hillbilly land.

…logic just escapes me. [/quote]

I did go back and read what you said. Just in case you missed your first fucking post in this thread - I took the liberty of highlighting your stupidity above, along with the quote that defines you.

But go ahead and change the subject, pat yourself on the back, and proclaim your wealth.

The worst racists are the ones that don’t think it exists.

You are absolutely right…logic does escape you.

86

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Pat36 Your confusing. You want this conversation to be about how Sheffield is a racist asshole. You call him one but you don’t state the racist things that he said or did? The fact that he said Jeter was half black makes him racist? Or the fact that he felt disrepected by the way Torre handled black players versus white players? Are you saying he should be happy Torre did that or that he is just lying and Torre didn’t?

Here are the quotes from and the lame sugar coating of it:
[i]"In the June, 2007 issue of GQ Magazine, Sheffield (a Detroit Tiger at the time) was quoted saying that there are more Latin baseball players than black players because Latinos are easier to control.

�??What I called is that you�??re going to see more black faces, but there ain�??t no English going to be coming out. … (It�??s about) being able to tell (Latin players) what to do �?? being able to control them,�?? he told the magazine. �??Where I�??m from, you can�??t control us.�?? He went on to elaborate, "They have more to lose than we do. You can send them back across the island. You can�??t send us back. We�??re already here.�??[2][/i]

In one fell swoop he call Latin players sheep and blacks hard to work with…What an idiot considering half his teammates are Latin.
Yes, I am calling bullshit on his analysis of Torre. Perhaps he was called out because he sucked at crtical moments or loafed and played lazily like he didn’t give a shit.

There were several times in Atlanta where his lackadaisical performance deserved his ass riding pine. I am guessing Bobby didn’t bench him because he did not want to be called a racist. I think his batting average during the playoffs in Atlanta was like .098, and then he ran off to New York to get paid.

lolol Okay I watched his interview last night and kind of enjoyed it, but the one you just quoted from GQ was pretty stupid and assholish. It might be racist but it seems more stupid related then racial. He might be hypersensative to race anyway specially being in baseball as I’ve heard numerous accounts of minor league black baseball players and their disgust with baseball’s racial overtones.

[/quote]

And what kind of shit storm do you think it would have caused if say, Roger Clemens, Chipper Jones, Curt Shilling, Kyle Farnsworth, Jeff Kent or any other cracker player said the samething. How long do you think they would be suspended for and how much do you think they would be fined? The only reason MLB hasn’t come down on Sheffield is because he would play the race card on them immediatly.

The sad part about people like Sheffeild misusing and misplacing the racist label is that people stop taking it seriously. So when somebody is really in trouble and really experiencing true racism his voice is squashed because assholes like Sheffeild misused it for personal gain. Can anybody actually claim Shaffeild is a put-upon mistreated person? I thought not. He’s just a dick.

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[quote]texasguy1 wrote:

Fact trumps all. Logic is to be desired, but can be twisted to fit virtually any argument. I’m just asking for simple fact here and have posted the same both to prove a point and to goad a similar response. [/quote]

You are a real piece of work. Here are some facts, facts can be true or false. A fact can be used to both prove a point as well as disprove the very same point. Facts can be taken out of context. For example, “their are more whites on welfare than blacks”.

This seemingly proves that poverty is a bigger problem among whites than blacks. However, when you look at this fact in the context that proportionately more blacks are on welfare, a different conclusion should be drawn.

Logic is essential for a reasonable debate, not desired. Hence the reason you are a terrible debator. You throw out a bunch of unproven, contextual-less facts and opinions and then ask others to disprove your hypotheses, all the while making personal attacks.

I concur with others in that until you get out of your sheltered world and mingle with the blue-collareds for an extended length of time, you have no basis for making any commentary on the state of race relations.

I’m white. I never saw racism in my HS. But, looking back, there were a lot of things that went on, jokes, pranks, etc, that to the white kids laughing was just clean fun. To the targets, it was likely seen as racism.

Since HS, I’ve worked blue-collar jobs in the South. I’ve been an officer in the Army. I’ve been to every small, not-on-the-map town in North and South Carolina. I now live in NJ and work in NYC. I can assure you, racism exists, in the North and in the South. In most cases it is latent. In many cases, it is open.

Here’s a prime example (and one of many) of racism that I encountered on one of my jobs:
I had been out to dinner with some work colleagues in NC. Three of us were white, one guy was black. While we were driving back to our motel, another driver cut us off.

One of the guys in the backseat yelled out “watch it you dumb-fucking nigger!” The other 3 of us reacted along the lines of “what the hell? that was wrong”, etc. The guy who said it responded with, “Oh, you know I didn’t mean anything by it.”

The point of my little story is a lot of things are so ingrained in people from early on that it doesn’t even register as racist to the person responsible. This is probably what you have experienced thus far in your life.

It’s ok to discuss topics with which you are unfamiliar. It’s a good method of learning. It’s not ok to act like an expert when you really have no meaningful experience. You just come off like a supreme asshole - something with which you seem to have extensive experience.

DB

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[quote]Mick28 wrote:
maloneted knows that he’s in over his head and this debate is lost. So, he goes into silly mode. But don’t worry I’ll translate each line for you.

malonetd wrote:
You’re not even worth debating point for point since you didn’t even really make a point.

Translation: "I don’t really have a good answer to the statistics posted and your main point. I want to continue to live in my little world and believe with all my heart that racism is every bit as bad as it was years ago, so leave me alone.

So instead, do us all a favor and tell us how a man of you aptitude escaped poverty. You know, so we all have a template – sort of a guide to follow.

Translation: “I cannot argue the abundant general facts that you have presented. So, I’d like to take this to a personal level hoping that I can poke holes in your story and make you look bad. Could you help me out here I know I’m the one looking bad right now, and I don’t like it very much.”

[/quote]

As usual, avoiding my question and resorting to personal attacks.

What statistics did you post? The ones about black enrollment and black officials, etc, etc? How does that change my point? Have you even read anything I posted? I said things were getting better in my very first post.

Look, it almost feels like we’re arguing around each other now and not even debating the same points. I’ll try and back up here and start over. It’s not worth either of our time to just start taking things personal. I say this because you come off a little brighter that texguy, and while we might not be able to see eye-to-eye, I think we can both agree on certain points.

First, I don’t think racism is as bas as it was years ago. I do believe it still it exists and can be a factor in many people’s lives. I think our only disagreement here is the level it exists and the role it plays in people’s lives.

The problem with a debate like this is that racial discrimination is hard to prove. It’s hard, if not impossible, to prove someone’s intentions and motivations. There are discrimination lawsuits being tried all the time across America. Are some of them garbage? Definitely, but I believe many are not and I think this means there is still a problem with race relations in this country.

I do believe things have gotten better, but we’re still not quite there yet. Remember, the only reason I jumped in this thread is because texguy said we are all truly equal now. I disagreed with that. I think for the most part things are headed in the right direction, but we’re just not there yet. It’s just going to take a little more time.

Next, I do not condone or offer any justification or excuses for criminal activities. I thought I made that clear. My point was that poverty equals crime. I don’t think that’s debateable.

As far as getting out of poverty, I think our big disagreement was when you used the word “many” as in many people get out of poverty. I don’t know what you meant number-wise, but I read many to mean “a lot” or “the majority.” It also felt like you were implying that it wasn’t that hard to do it. Perhaps I misunderstood.

On the flip side, I think you read my posts to mean that I thought people shouldn’t try and that it is impossible to get out of poverty. I didn’t mean that either. I think it is damn hard. People definitely should try. The problem is that because it is so hard, not people have the fortitude or the mental toughness to stick it out. For every rags to riches story, there are thousands of individuals that die poor and hungry.

Though I may have come off as a smart ass, I didn’t mean to, and I was being serious when I asked about you escaping poverty. I understand this is a public forum where you may wish not to share these things, but I was just curious. And, growing up the way I did, this is a subject I feel strongly about.

I’m much better off now than I was in the past. I wish I could say it was all hard work that got me where I am, but I’d be lying. I got very lucky a couple of times in life. My siblings didn’t get as lucky and are still struggling. I have a brother in prison. I have a sister who was/is an addict and was/is homeless. My alcoholic mother lives with her alcoholic boyfriend who beats her regularly – or at least she did four years ago when I made my third and final attempt to have her in my life.

Now, I will be the first to admit, my relatives got where they are through their own actions. No one or no thing made them do what they have done. But understand that poverty consumes people. And this is what happens when you can’t fight back.

Anyway, to summarize:
Things better – yes
All truly equal – no, not yet
Poverty – very hard to get out, not many do

I hope I cleared up my position a little without any pointless personal attacks. I also think we don’t disagree nearly as much as we made it seem.

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[quote]malonetd wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
A bunch of garbage that really made no sense and avoided the issues

You’re not even worth debating point for point since you didn’t even really make a point. So instead, do us all a favor and tell us how a man of you aptitude escaped poverty. You know, so we all have a template – sort of a guide to follow.[/quote]

Glad you realized this. It took me 2 of his post to see it, then I was reminded about a few of his other dumb ass post in other forums.

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[quote]pat36 wrote:

And what kind of shit storm do you think it would have caused if say, Roger Clemens, Chipper Jones, Curt Shilling, Kyle Farnsworth, Jeff Kent or any other cracker player said the samething. How long do you think they would be suspended for and how much do you think they would be fined? The only reason MLB hasn’t come down on Sheffield is because he would play the race card on them immediatly.

The sad part about people like Sheffeild misusing and misplacing the racist label is that people stop taking it seriously. So when somebody is really in trouble and really experiencing true racism his voice is squashed because assholes like Sheffeild misused it for personal gain. Can anybody actually claim Shaffeild is a put-upon mistreated person? I thought not. He’s just a dick.[/quote]

If Roger clemens would have said what? that a black manager was racist? or if he would have said latins are in baseball because they can control them? Probably litte more than sheffield.

They TRIED to make a shit storm out of sheffeilds comments but nobody really cares, half way because people think he’s a dick already. Think about it they posted his comments before his interview even aired to try and make waves. Al sharpton makes more waves than sheffield. What got Rocker in trouble was talking about innocent women and kids which will always get you in trouble.

On the other hand I could possibly believe the Torre comment only because Torre had absolutely no comment on it. He could’ve easily said I treat all players the same.

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[quote]Mick28 wrote:
…
[/quote]

Ok, it’s getting to be a pain in the ass to quote and unquote everything, so I will try to touch quickly on a few things. Forgive me if I miss something.

As far equality and special treatment, there was a time when special treatment was needed. Things like affirmative action and other programs were needed to give a group of people that were so far behind in terms of equality a stepping stone and a chance to catch up. Slowly these programs are being needed less and less.

Keep in my in the scheme of things how short of time it has been since the Civil Rights movement. The mindset of many weren’t going to change instantly. If the government didn’t step in and force schools to allow blacks, or force companies to hire blacks(and women), they just weren’t going to. We’re slowly getting to a time where these things aren’t needed. But, unfortunately, they are still needed to a point.

Take the NFL, for example. (I use the NFL because it is highly visible and well known.) There needed to be a rule implemented to allow black coaches at least the opportunity to compete for positions.

This is because many of the teams are owned by owners that are old and still have pre-Civil Rights movement mindsets. Now that many teams are being purchased or handed over to younger owners, things will likely change and the rule may no longer be needed.

I feel this reflects society. As we move into future generations, and as the older generations pass away, we move into a more equal society. We will have generations born into more integrated communities that won’t have relatives alive that experienced the pre-Civil Rights hate. How long this will take, I don’t know.

I also feel that as time passes, things will improve regarding poverty and blacks as well. As generations move on, it will give time for families to accumulate wealth and pass it down. In future generations we will see the black equivalent of the Vanderbilts and the Rockefellers and the Waltons. There just hasn’t been enough time for families to build the wealth yet.

And real quick, I already don’t think very highly of the network. They insulted many by refusing to play videos deemed “too intelligent for the BET audience.”

http://www.sohh.com/articles/article.php/7519

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Look here alright. I’m pretty much sick of ppl crying racism and not taking personal responsibility for what they lack. Do what you do and try to take the piss out of my reasoning by saying I’ve never been poor and struggling, that’s what you do. Go ahead and be wrong. I am a white woman, come from a family of seven children. I know poverty, I know it well. So get off your platform motherfuckers.

I grew up inner city. As far as I’m concerned that qualifies me for no upper word. I despise those who don’t want to learn. I despise those who don’t have it in them to struggle, as though they think this country was built on hand outs. Or that ppl better than them never died for the rights they enjoy today, and they spend it blaming and being cowards.

I hate you. I really do. Everybody is so scared of being labeled racist that the pendulum is swinging too far the other way. Do I believe in racism? Yes I do. I believe it exists to the extent that everybody has a get out of racism free card, if you aren’t white. You can say what you please if you are jewish or black. Freedom for you.

Congratulations. I can’t be proud of who I am in the meantime. I have no heritage in the meantime. If I say I’m proud … I’m automatically racist. Lovely how the tides have turned. For you. I’m sick of politically correct bullshit, it makes slaves of all of us. Once upon a time , people came to this country fleeing oppresion and horrible ways …to make a better life and they kissed the ground, they were grateful,and worked hard to earn a life, flew our flag high. Nowadays you spit on our flag, bite the hand that feeds. Why. Why would you do that. Opportunity knocks, it doesnt demand. Know the difference.

Signed…

Pissed off.

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[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Molotov_Coktease wrote:

Everybody is so scared of being labeled racist that the pendulum is swinging too far the other way.

I’m sick of politically correct bullshit, it makes slaves of all of us.

I completely agree with these two comments.[/quote]

It’s just so hard to be white, isn’t it Mick? We are basically slaves, right? I mean, we can’t even say what’s on our mind. Bullshit. You can say whatever the hell you want, but if you say something that sounds racist, then yes, people might think you’re racist. And if a person of color says something racist, the reason that it isn’t as much of an issue is that there isn’t that same history of oppression behind it.

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[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
Do I believe in racism? Yes I do. I believe it exists to the extent that everybody has a get out of racism free card, if you aren’t white. You can say what you please if you are jewish or black. Freedom for you.
[/quote]

There’s a key component to racism that makes it oppressive, and that is power. Since white people are the overwhelming majority in the U.S. in number, government positions, and financially, they are the ones in power.

In a way it’s like how you see rich and famous people getting “roasted” at parties and it doesn’t really hurt them. Say the same type of stuff to somebody who’s really struggling to make it, and they aren’t going to take it so well. Something like, “Look at that guy on the street, he’s so skinny I bet he hasn’t eaten in 5 days.”

I’m not saying that all minority people are struggling, but as collective groups they still do not have near as much power and political influence as White America.