What good did it do Arafat? None, because the Israelis kept blaming him for the acts of Hamas. Up until the nuts rammed planes into the twin towers, I was sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, because I didn’t understand the Israeli’s stance.
Now with Arafat’s group battling Hamas, it is clear that he wasn’t lying, he had no power over Hamas and the two groups were feuding.
What ever good could have come from it was hijacked by Hamas.
[quote]lixy wrote:
I prefered litterature over Marvel comics…
[/quote]
The irony is killing me.
As for someone who stands in front of a bulldozer - I’m not feeling the “hero” label there…
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Hmmm…So, the only way you can make a point is to alter what I actually wrote and add to it?
[/quote]
Wreckless didn’t add a thing there. He was just quoting something kevinm1 said.
Seriously folks, we can’t have a discussion if you guys accuse each other of lying, deceiving and other idiocies all the time.
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
The irony is killing me. [/quote]
Please refrain from reading my posts then. I’d hate to be responsible for your death in any way.
Now if you’ll care to explain what exactly do you find ironic, maybe we could get somewhere. Are you under the impression that “hero” is somehow a trademark of Marvel?
The guy in front of the tank in Tiananmen wasn’t a hero for you? He, and his family, were erased soon after the incident.
What, then do you consider a hero? Isn’t it someone who stands out for the unprotected, disfortunate and segregated against? Isn’t it someone willing to give his/her life in defense of his cause and against all odds?
Heroism \Her"o*ism, n. [F.h’e]ro["i]sme.] The qualities characteristic of a hero, as courage, bravery, fortitude, unselfishness, etc.; the display of such qualities.
[1913 Webster]
Few things I include in my own definition of heroes: Heroes are never offensive; If odds are on you favour, then the act you perform would hardly qualify as heroic.
[quote]lixy wrote:
The guy in front of the tank in Tiananmen wasn’t a hero for you? He, and his family, were erased soon after the incident.[/quote]
Well, the situations are hardly similar in fact, but I do like that you recognize the heroism in standing against left wing governments. Well done.
Good, then by your assessment, since Lincoln’s troops outnumbered the South’s, his quest against chattel slavery wasn’t heroic - after all, the military odds were in his favor.
Nor was there anything heroic about liberating the thousands of Muslims in the Balkans.
Keep typing, Lixy - you are proof of the value of the First Amendment. The more you type, the more we learn just how seriously you can’t be taken.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Good, then by your assessment, since Lincoln’s troops outnumbered the South’s, his quest against chattel slavery wasn’t heroic - after all, the military odds were in his favor. [/quote]
It was morally just and a worthy purpose but hardly heroic. Holding the higher moral ground does not suffice to qualify for heroism in my eyes.
The “freedom riders” were a very heroic bunch. The “Spartans” certainly deserve that label as well. But there’s no way some over-equipped GIs fighting Iraqis who want to drive them out of their country are anything near that.
What the hell does numbers and equipment have to do with heroism? The individual soldier is still putting his life on the line. He’s not immortal. Some have seen friends ripped apart by Iran’s roadside bombs, and still go out to fight sectarian terrorists.
You provide the definition of heroic, and then turn around and redefine it. Is there an intellectually honest bone in your body? Again, what in the hell do numbers and equipment have to do with heroism? Heroism is not a collective sum of the numbers on your side.
Each individual soldier knows he’s very mortal, yet continues to fight alongside his comrades in an difficult enviroment.
No, pontificating on T-Nation’s political forum is an attempt to take a moral high ground. It’s what we’re doing now. Simply saying slavery is wrong is taking a moral high ground. Fighting, with a very real possibility of being killed, to end slavery is heroic. Yes, regardless of numbers or equipment.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Then they’d only need to avoid kneeling down in front of a military bulldozer that has a craptastic field of view.
You’re right.
On the day of Rachel’s killing, a four-year-old girl was killed by the IDF. Surely she didn’t kneel in front of no bulldozer.
[/quote]
So, how do you feel about the young muslim Gentleman I posted about? Was he a hero?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
…[/quote]
Call me romantic but, unless the odds are against you, you hardly qualify as a hero in my book. There’s not much to discuss here; only different opinions on the perception of a concept.
Never heard of the guy. Googling the guy’s name returns a single hit on which no claim is made that he wasn’t a spy.
If he was as you claim a peace loving well-intentioned fellow who stood up for what he believed in, then yes. He’d qualify as hero for me.
I’ll welcome any readings you might have on the case provided you skip sources of dubious background. Thanks.
IDF soldiers use Nablus youths as ‘human shield’
Grim image of Israeli occupation
“Anything hit within a radius of 8 meters is killed. Anybody within 16 meters will be injured,” he said. “When I first learned of my mission, I freaked out.”
But the young soldier did as he was told, firing as many 100 rounds per night into a crush of Palestinian homes, not knowing whom he might have wounded or killed.
“It was like playing a video game,” he recalled…
Shaul is the founder of a group of former Israeli soldiers who have sought to prick the conscience of the Israeli public with their tales of military service.
Called Breaking the Silence, the organization first came to the public’s attention in 2004 when it created an exhibit of photographs, videos and testimonies of the routine injustices, humiliations and harassment of Palestinians at the hands of Israeli forces. The exhibit, displayed in Tel Aviv and the Israeli Parliament, stirred widespread debate about the consequences of Israel’s occupation…
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.hebron31mar31,0,7667974.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines
Bishops equate Israel’s actions to Holocaust
03/06/07
While crossing one of the checkpoints into East Jerusalem the Archbishop of Cologne, Cardinal Joachim Meisner, told reporters: “This is something that is done to animals, not people…”
The delegation’s visit to Ramallah took place several hours after their visit to Yad Vashem and several of the bishops chose to equate the situation in the Palestinian Authority with the Holocaust.
“Cages in the image of ghettos,” said the Bishop of Augsburg of the territories. Augsburg was once under the spiritual leadership of Pope Benedict XVI, who was Archbishop of the Munich-Freising Archdiocese and his brother Monsignor Georg Ratzinger still resides there.
“Israel has, of course, the right to exist, but this right cannot be realized in such a brutal manner,” said Bishop Hanke…
“Zionism is challenging the attention of the world today because it is creating a situation out of which many believe the next war will come…”
–Henry Ford - May 26, 1921
[i]"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine…
Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future."[/i]
–Albert Einstein - December 4, 1948
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
…
Call me romantic but, unless the odds are against you, you hardly qualify as a hero in my book. There’s not much to discuss here; only different opinions on the perception of a concept.
So, how do you feel about the young muslim Gentleman I posted about? Was he a hero?
Never heard of the guy. Googling the guy’s name returns a single hit on which no claim is made that he wasn’t a spy.
If he was as you claim a peace loving well-intentioned fellow who stood up for what he believed in, then yes. He’d qualify as hero for me.
I’ll welcome any readings you might have on the case provided you skip sources of dubious background. Thanks.[/quote]
Feel free to search yourself. Just the name and “Jenin” should do. And, you won’t be able to find an article claiming he wasn’t a spy. You see, there was no evidence, tribunal, trial, or any such thing offered. He was known to work in an Israeli Arabic town. And that’s all the evidence that was ever presented as to why he was thrown down in the middle of the street, executed, and then used as a dance floor.
Besides, we’re not even talking about the judicial system here. We’re talking about terrorists carrying out this ‘justice.’ It’s meaningless to ask what evidence they may had as they’re not the proper authority. His story wasn’t widely circulated. You have to remember, this isn’t Israelis killing Palestinians, so yeah, not trendy.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Hell, the Red Cross asked that they be expelled from the building the two were sharing.
I guess the Red Cross people didn’t want to be run over by bulldozers.[/quote]
Interestingly enough, the red cross has been filmed transporting weapons and armed fighters from the palestinian side… I wonder what your thoughts are on this…? Is that ok?
"
"Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine…
Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future."
–Albert Einstein - December 4, 1948 "
The irgun/stern-groups… which all were NOT allowed to become a part of haganah and were generally shunned by the population…
yeah…
good point… 
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
The irgun/stern-groups… which all were NOT allowed to become a part of haganah and were generally shunned by the population…
yeah…
good point… :)[/quote]
Don’t mean to intrude here, but the quote is from a letter signed by prominent Jews condemning the emergence of right-wing “Herut” as a popular political entity. Note that the Irgun was a predecessor to the “Herut”.
Not sure you took that into consideration in your reply…
[quote]lixy wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
The irgun/stern-groups… which all were NOT allowed to become a part of haganah and were generally shunned by the population…
yeah…
good point…
Don’t mean to intrude here, but the quote is from a letter signed by prominent Jews condemning the emergence of right-wing “Herut” as a popular political entity. Note that the Irgun was a predecessor to the “Herut”.
Not sure you took that into consideration in your reply…[/quote]
The point is that irgun/stern never was accepted by the broad population.
[quote]lixy wrote:
SkyNett wrote:
The irony is killing me.
Please refrain from reading my posts then. I’d hate to be responsible for your death in any way.
Now if you’ll care to explain what exactly do you find ironic, maybe we could get somewhere. Are you under the impression that “hero” is somehow a trademark of Marvel?
As for someone who stands in front of a bulldozer - I’m not feeling the “hero” label there…
The guy in front of the tank in Tiananmen wasn’t a hero for you? He, and his family, were erased soon after the incident.
What, then do you consider a hero? Isn’t it someone who stands out for the unprotected, disfortunate and segregated against? Isn’t it someone willing to give his/her life in defense of his cause and against all odds?
Heroism \Her"o*ism, n. [F.h’e]ro["i]sme.] The qualities characteristic of a hero, as courage, bravery, fortitude, unselfishness, etc.; the display of such qualities.
[1913 Webster]
Few things I include in my own definition of heroes: Heroes are never offensive; If odds are on you favour, then the act you perform would hardly qualify as heroic.
Corrolary to the above: US troops in Iraq are not heroes,
That bitch wasn’t a hero. First she was an idiot. Second she was a terrorist sympathizer which further enforces the fact that she was an idiot.
Perhaps, if Israel’s peace loving neighbors did not declare war on them in 1967, Israel would not have kicked there ass and took their land. If Israel was smart, on day 7 they would have gathered all those in the population who do not believe in Israel’s sovereignty and bussed them to the borders.
The palestinians have had chance after chance to set up their own nation. And they continue to get that chance. But what do they do? The follow with more terrorist attacks. They do not want peace, they want Israel gone and Jerusalem as the capitol of their great islamic nation. They will not stop the violence.
If somebody chooses to martyr themselves for a bunch of assholes, I thank them for seizing to breath air better suited for others.
[quote]Adamsson wrote:
The point is that irgun/stern never was accepted by the broad population. [/quote]
You mean like the “war on Iraq” is not accepted by the broad population? If so, then you’re probably right.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
That bitch wasn’t a hero. First she was an idiot. Second she was a terrorist sympathizer which further enforces the fact that she was an idiot.
Perhaps, if Israel’s peace loving neighbors did not declare war on them in 1967, Israel would not have kicked there ass and took their land. If Israel was smart, on day 7 they would have gathered all those in the population who do not believe in Israel’s sovereignty and bussed them to the borders.
The palestinians have had chance after chance to set up their own nation. And they continue to get that chance. But what do they do? The follow with more terrorist attacks. They do not want peace, they want Israel gone and Jerusalem as the capitol of their great islamic nation. They will not stop the violence.
If somebody chooses to martyr themselves for a bunch of assholes, I thank them for seizing to breath air better suited for others.[/quote]
Well said!
Seriously, very well stated. Israel’s neighbor’s want only their surrender, not peace.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
The point is that irgun/stern never was accepted by the broad population.
You mean like the “war on Iraq” is not accepted by the broad population? If so, then you’re probably right.
[/quote]
They were not accepted by the jewish agency, by the people that formed haganah or by the broad population in any way. Your comparison is a bad one, and yet again… you prove that your agenda is far more important to you than the actual facts.