So according to Mrs. J, as long as I don’t drink (I don’t because I am in contest prep), smoke (never did), and I floss regularly (I do) I should be fine with throwing in a chew once a day (ends up being like a can a weekish)?
[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
So according to Mrs. J, and I floss regularly (I do) I should be fine with throwing in a chew once a day (ends up being like a can a weekish)?[/quote]
You just said exactly what I do.
My dentist has never seen anything remotely worrisome.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
So according to Mrs. J, and I floss regularly (I do) I should be fine with throwing in a chew once a day (ends up being like a can a weekish)?[/quote]
You just said exactly what I do.
My dentist has never seen anything remotely worrisome. [/quote]
Mine has never said anything about it either. Just good to know that their is at least some literature/lack-thereof that can put my mind slightly at ease.
[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
So according to Mrs. J, and I floss regularly (I do) I should be fine with throwing in a chew once a day (ends up being like a can a weekish)?[/quote]
You just said exactly what I do.
My dentist has never seen anything remotely worrisome. [/quote]
Mine has never said anything about it either. Just good to know that their is at least some literature/lack-thereof that can put my mind slightly at ease.[/quote]
At this point, I think that the anti-tobacco lobby is just as powerful as the tobacco industry.
Smoking is a far worse thing, just don’t chew your face off… and take smaller doses.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
(And for those who ask the question, yes, I am a published author in head and neck cancer research.)[/quote]
I know it raises blood pressure the same as cigarettes, but do you know if it carries the same risk of arterial constriction?[/quote]
Dont worry he is a skeptic.
My medical opinion is if you are going through more than one can a day then yes you greatly increasing your risk for mouth, throat and tongue cancer.
Like everything else in life moderation is the key. [/quote]
I don’t know, if I only play russian roulette occasionally it still seems counterproductive.
[/quote]
Really Testy (I almost used your real name 
)
Are you in a contrary mode this week or what?[/quote]
Oh. I am the contrary one.
Now, do you know that there is a “safe” dose of snuff–a threshhold effect?
The data can be interpreted otherwise.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
(And for those who ask the question, yes, I am a published author in head and neck cancer research.)[/quote]
I know it raises blood pressure the same as cigarettes, but do you know if it carries the same risk of arterial constriction?[/quote]
Dont worry he is a skeptic.
My medical opinion is if you are going through more than one can a day then yes you greatly increasing your risk for mouth, throat and tongue cancer.
Like everything else in life moderation is the key. [/quote]
I don’t know, if I only play russian roulette occasionally it still seems counterproductive.
[/quote]
Really Testy (I almost used your real name )
Are you in a contrary mode this week or what?[/quote]
Oh. I am the contrary one.
Now, do you know that there is a “safe” dose of snuff–a threshhold effect?
The data can be interpreted otherwise.
[/quote]
He was calling me contrary. You he was calling a skeptic.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
(And for those who ask the question, yes, I am a published author in head and neck cancer research.)[/quote]
I know it raises blood pressure the same as cigarettes, but do you know if it carries the same risk of arterial constriction?[/quote]
Dont worry he is a skeptic.
My medical opinion is if you are going through more than one can a day then yes you greatly increasing your risk for mouth, throat and tongue cancer.
Like everything else in life moderation is the key. [/quote]
I don’t know, if I only play russian roulette occasionally it still seems counterproductive.
[/quote]
Really Testy (I almost used your real name )
Are you in a contrary mode this week or what?[/quote]
Oh. I am the contrary one.
Now, do you know that there is a “safe” dose of snuff–a threshhold effect?
The data can be interpreted otherwise.
[/quote]
I think you may be arguing different things…Snuff is typically inhaled or at least that is my experience…dip or chew is oral.
Or am I incorrect in what you are referring to as far as a safe or unsafe dose?
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
(And for those who ask the question, yes, I am a published author in head and neck cancer research.)[/quote]
I know it raises blood pressure the same as cigarettes, but do you know if it carries the same risk of arterial constriction?[/quote]
Dont worry he is a skeptic.
My medical opinion is if you are going through more than one can a day then yes you greatly increasing your risk for mouth, throat and tongue cancer.
Like everything else in life moderation is the key. [/quote]
I don’t know, if I only play russian roulette occasionally it still seems counterproductive.
[/quote]
Really Testy (I almost used your real name )
Are you in a contrary mode this week or what?[/quote]
Oh. I am the contrary one.
Now, do you know that there is a “safe” dose of snuff–a threshhold effect?
The data can be interpreted otherwise.
[/quote]
He was calling me contrary. You he was calling a skeptic.
[/quote]
Correct.
How much protein a day do you eat Dr. Skeptic
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
(And for those who ask the question, yes, I am a published author in head and neck cancer research.)[/quote]
I know it raises blood pressure the same as cigarettes, but do you know if it carries the same risk of arterial constriction?[/quote]
Dont worry he is a skeptic.
My medical opinion is if you are going through more than one can a day then yes you greatly increasing your risk for mouth, throat and tongue cancer.
Like everything else in life moderation is the key. [/quote]
I don’t know, if I only play russian roulette occasionally it still seems counterproductive.
[/quote]
Really Testy (I almost used your real name )
Are you in a contrary mode this week or what?[/quote]
Oh. I am the contrary one.
Now, do you know that there is a “safe” dose of snuff–a threshhold effect?
The data can be interpreted otherwise.
[/quote]
He was calling me contrary. You he was calling a skeptic.
[/quote]
Correct.
How much protein a day do you eat Dr. Skeptic [/quote]
Enough to have prevented head and neck cancer…so far.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
(And for those who ask the question, yes, I am a published author in head and neck cancer research.)[/quote]
I know it raises blood pressure the same as cigarettes, but do you know if it carries the same risk of arterial constriction?[/quote]
Dont worry he is a skeptic.
My medical opinion is if you are going through more than one can a day then yes you greatly increasing your risk for mouth, throat and tongue cancer.
Like everything else in life moderation is the key. [/quote]
I don’t know, if I only play russian roulette occasionally it still seems counterproductive.
[/quote]
Really Testy (I almost used your real name )
Are you in a contrary mode this week or what?[/quote]
Oh. I am the contrary one.
Now, do you know that there is a “safe” dose of snuff–a threshhold effect?
The data can be interpreted otherwise.
[/quote]
He was calling me contrary. You he was calling a skeptic.
[/quote]
Correct.
How much protein a day do you eat Dr. Skeptic [/quote]
Enough to have prevented head and neck cancer…so far.[/quote]
Just a question, when you are in the position you are in, dont you think you become very myopic? After 14 years of working ER everyone I saw was either a crack addict or was going to stab you.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
(And for those who ask the question, yes, I am a published author in head and neck cancer research.)[/quote]
I know it raises blood pressure the same as cigarettes, but do you know if it carries the same risk of arterial constriction?[/quote]
Dont worry he is a skeptic.
My medical opinion is if you are going through more than one can a day then yes you greatly increasing your risk for mouth, throat and tongue cancer.
Like everything else in life moderation is the key. [/quote]
I don’t know, if I only play russian roulette occasionally it still seems counterproductive.
[/quote]
Really Testy (I almost used your real name )
Are you in a contrary mode this week or what?[/quote]
Oh. I am the contrary one.
Now, do you know that there is a “safe” dose of snuff–a threshhold effect?
The data can be interpreted otherwise.
[/quote]
He was calling me contrary. You he was calling a skeptic.
[/quote]
Correct.
How much protein a day do you eat Dr. Skeptic [/quote]
Enough to have prevented head and neck cancer…so far.[/quote]
Just a question, when you are in the position you are in, dont you think you become very myopic? After 14 years of working ER everyone I saw was either a crack addict or was going to stab you.[/quote]
My position is hardly enviable. And myopic? No. Astigmatic, probably.
I am the heretic and skeptic; it is I who question the value of “studies” and others’ assertions.
Disbelief in the standard operating dogmas is what protects patients.
This is why I challenge in these spaces, or present abstracts, open to examination and criticism.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
(And for those who ask the question, yes, I am a published author in head and neck cancer research.)[/quote]
I know it raises blood pressure the same as cigarettes, but do you know if it carries the same risk of arterial constriction?[/quote]
Dont worry he is a skeptic.
My medical opinion is if you are going through more than one can a day then yes you greatly increasing your risk for mouth, throat and tongue cancer.
Like everything else in life moderation is the key. [/quote]
I don’t know, if I only play russian roulette occasionally it still seems counterproductive.
[/quote]
Really Testy (I almost used your real name )
Are you in a contrary mode this week or what?[/quote]
Oh. I am the contrary one.
Now, do you know that there is a “safe” dose of snuff–a threshhold effect?
The data can be interpreted otherwise.
[/quote]
He was calling me contrary. You he was calling a skeptic.
[/quote]
Correct.
How much protein a day do you eat Dr. Skeptic [/quote]
Enough to have prevented head and neck cancer…so far.[/quote]
Just a question, when you are in the position you are in, dont you think you become very myopic? After 14 years of working ER everyone I saw was either a crack addict or was going to stab you.[/quote]
My position is hardly enviable. And myopic? No. Astigmatic, probably.
I am the heretic and skeptic; it is I who question the value of “studies” and others’ assertions.
Disbelief in the standard operating dogmas is what protects patients.
This is why I challenge in these spaces, or present abstracts, open to examination and criticism.
[/quote]
Point taken
So in your personal life do you come off as an asshole? I’m really not attacking I am just curious. I find sometimes people’s profession end up taking over their personal life. You spend your career questioning and being the one to always play the “devils advocate” does that spill over into your interactions at a dinner party?
Do you become the guy that just argues all night cause you just dont know any other way to be any more?
See I appreciate Dr. Skeptic’s opinion and it is the most traditional medical opinion out there. I might not agree with everything he says but it is refreshing to see a modern Sextus Empiricus with a hint of Popperian Falsification.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
(And for those who ask the question, yes, I am a published author in head and neck cancer research.)[/quote]
I know it raises blood pressure the same as cigarettes, but do you know if it carries the same risk of arterial constriction?[/quote]
Dont worry he is a skeptic.
My medical opinion is if you are going through more than one can a day then yes you greatly increasing your risk for mouth, throat and tongue cancer.
Like everything else in life moderation is the key. [/quote]
I don’t know, if I only play russian roulette occasionally it still seems counterproductive.
[/quote]
Really Testy (I almost used your real name )
Are you in a contrary mode this week or what?[/quote]
Oh. I am the contrary one.
Now, do you know that there is a “safe” dose of snuff–a threshhold effect?
The data can be interpreted otherwise.
[/quote]
He was calling me contrary. You he was calling a skeptic.
[/quote]
Correct.
How much protein a day do you eat Dr. Skeptic [/quote]
Enough to have prevented head and neck cancer…so far.[/quote]
Just a question, when you are in the position you are in, dont you think you become very myopic? After 14 years of working ER everyone I saw was either a crack addict or was going to stab you.[/quote]
My position is hardly enviable. And myopic? No. Astigmatic, probably.
I am the heretic and skeptic; it is I who question the value of “studies” and others’ assertions.
Disbelief in the standard operating dogmas is what protects patients.
This is why I challenge in these spaces, or present abstracts, open to examination and criticism.
[/quote]
Point taken
So in your personal life do you come off as an asshole? I’m really not attacking I am just curious. I find sometimes people’s profession end up taking over their personal life. You spend your career questioning and being the one to always play the “devils advocate” does that spill over into your interactions at a dinner party?
Do you become the guy that just argues all night cause you just dont know any other way to be any more? [/quote]
Would an asshole tell you the truth about himself?
I am not argumentative and personally aggressive, although it may seem that way in writing. So, no, I am not a “devil’s advocate” for the sake of arguing unproductively.
There is a skill I strive to acquire which I would impart to others: how to disagree without being disagreeable.
[quote]jkondash89 wrote:
Im doing good so far 3rd day no nicotine working on the 4th right now. I got a can of cope WG in the freezer and i open the freezer up every now and then just to flip it off and swear at it lmao. Good luck to whoever else is quitting also. Join in this race with me.[/quote]
You gotta throw that can away…don’t just throw the can away, take the lid off and dump it in the trash can…better yet…go outside and dump it out…I found myself trying to scrape loose cope off my trash can one too many times…seriously…can anything that causes you to scrape it out of a trash can to put in your mouth so you can spit it out be good for you?
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
“5. I do believe ST is a mouth irritant and inflammation is very related to cancer. I have a sneaking suspicion that you could replicate the rates of cancer found in ST users by sticking any given irritating foreign object in peoples’ mouths over a long period of time. In fact, I bet you could find the same link (if not a stronger link) between people who floss and don’t floss.”
[/quote]
Interesting. Do you mean that flossing might lower your cancer risk or that it is an irritant?
[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
Actually almost started this exact same thread yesterday. Been dipping for about 6 years. Longest I ever quit was for 2 months, one of which I was abroad in China so didn’t really have a choice. Showering is the hardest part for me. I always throw in a lip when i shower. It has just become like a ritual habit at this point.
Let me know what you find useful. I shall be trying to quit right along side you.[/quote]
What were you up to in China? Been there a couple of times myself.
[quote]GrizzlyBerg wrote:
So according to Mrs. J, as long as I don’t drink (I don’t because I am in contest prep), smoke (never did), and I floss regularly (I do) I should be fine with throwing in a chew once a day (ends up being like a can a weekish)?[/quote]
No.
The question is posed either as “is it safe?” or “is it unsafe?” The evidence is that is it is unsafe and that there is no low level of use which is proven safe.
Refer to the abstract I posted on page 2 and accept for the sake of simplicity the following:
- Head and neck cancer is uncommon.
- The study controlled for major co-carcinogens and life factors.
- Still, any exposure to ST increased the risk of HNSCCa, almost to statistical significance (which means that a larger study may have achieved statistical significance), and
- After logistic regression, the overall risk of ST alone as a factor multiplied the risk of HNSCCa by 4 or more, with statistical significance.
I propose that there are reasons why the results of this type of study could have been even more extreme:
- ST increases the risk of gingival, buccal mucosa, oral tongue and (possibly) base of tongue cancer but not of nasopharynx, sinus, hypo pharynx, laryngeal cancer. Had the authors controlled for site of disease, the relative risk of ST would be even higher.
- There is an “epidemic” of human papilloma virus (HPV-16, chiefly) associated disease. There were not commercially available HPV tests done on cancers during the period of this study. I have found that among non-smokers and non-drinkers, base of tongue and oral tongue cancers are frequently HPV-16 positive. If HPV status were included in the logistic regression, I think the risk contribution of ST would be all the greater, especially among those patients with any exposure.
The studies that purport to show safety of ST may be too small; they commit type II error, i.e., they fail to find a difference of risk where it, in fact, exists. The large study I cite rejects the notion that ST is safe at every level of use.
Practically speaking, one cannot assume that ST is safe based on the cohort of small studies, and at least one appropriately large study supports a lack of safety of chronic use, and perhaps any use.
This part of human behaviour would frustrate me (irony effect). Trying to tell someone not to smoke or dip seems like a lost cause.
How does someone whose career is to provide advice (medical) not just throw up there hands in frustration? http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~wegner/pdfs/Wegner%20(2009).pdf
I am also curious why people finally quit when they are told they are going to die but they knew the health risks all along? Why did their impending finally get them to stop?
You know, I’m gonna add my two cents here. I used to smoke and finally quit with the exception of 2 or 3 loose cigarettes over the course of 3 years and hated the smell, and the ritual of smoking. Now my parents both smoked around me and my brothers when we were little and that was the 60’s and didn’t know what we know today.
My dad finally quit smoking the day he had a triple bypass, in fact less than 2 hrs before surgery. My mom quit the day her mother died and she was a 3 pack a day smoker! When I quit, I was between unemployment checks and decided to See if I could quit and I did. I used the patch but had a reaction, then failed.
I tried again a few weeks later when I had no money and used the Patch (left over from a previous batch) than I was able to stop and stay stopped for ore than 17 years>>>>>> As for the dip it was popular with the wrestlers on my high school team that I was part of and only tried it once.
And it was the most horrific thing I’d ever tasted plus it made me sick as a dog… I consider both dip and smoking as really bad choices to start using, especially at a younger age. I hope those who still using tobacco products to fucking quit because Your life depends on it and your life improves dramatically within 24 hours after quitting and still have to deal with habits or rituals associated with the tobacco during your down time! I know some people compare nicotine to drugs and I agree to a very small point, but the major point of the difference is tobacco does not alter your mind in such a way to drugs like coke, H, Pills and so on.
Those drugs will wreck havoc on families and friends to the point of killing and or worse… Be thankful you don’t have to kill a human being for a cigarette or dip.