Questions on W4SB Program

[Bull_Scientist]

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

1- No, it’s doesn’t. The conjugate system is all about training all abilities at the same time, hence the term “conjugate”. This is what makes the conjugate system of training different from other systems. [/quote]

Well yeah, but you don’t try to bring up EVERYTHING up at the same time, with the Sam emphasis on each one. Otherwise, you would end up overtraining.

I doubt any of them specifically wrote an entire article about why there is only 1 max effort exercise. You could read up on prilipen’s table as an example of the limited amount of max effort training the body can handle

I see.

[quote] 2- Are you asking if you should do 2 max effort upper body days? Or are you asking about performing the same lift for the max effort and repetition days?

If it’s the first, no. Having 2 max effort upper body days per week is not optimal because the nervous system still needs time to recover. If it was better to have 2 max effort upper days per week, Louie Simmons would most likely have his guys doing it [/quote]

Well I was actually asking both. Lol. Tough, you’re saying that even if I just performed the same max effort lift on both the max effort and repetition days, that would still be too much for nervous system?

[quote] 3- Yes, you must rotate exercises, or you numbers on the max effort days will begin to stall and then regress. You make progress by breaking PR’s (or attempting to) everytime you step into the gym.

For example, out of my own training this summer:
week 1- Bench 5RM
week 2- Bench 3RM
week 3- Incline 5RM
week 4- Incline 3RM
week 5- Floor Press 5RM
week 6- Floor Press 3RM

and then:
week 7- New Bench 5RM <there’s the progress, and this would repeat throughout the cycle [/quote]

Oh okay. So this program is all about breaking PRs?

4- You will always apply the principle of progressive overload. It is impossible to get stronger without doing that.

I think you are getting confused and making the mistake of thinking that the principle of progressive overload only applies to percentage based programs, and it does not. Progressive overload is simply lifting more weight then last time. When you break PR’s, you do this.

What do u mean by percentage based programs?

Furthermore, are all the exercises on max effort upper day supposed to be different then all of the exercises on repetition upper body day?

Additionally, why aren’t any exercises for concentrating on the medial shoulder and any exercise for concentrating on the triceps listed on the max effort upper body day like they are listed on the repetition upper body day?

[Chris87]

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

1- Well I was actually asking both. Lol. Tough, you’re saying that even if I just performed the same max effort lift on both the max effort and repetition days, that would still be too much for nervous system?

2- Oh okay. So this program is all about breaking PRs?

3- What do u mean by percentage based programs?

4- Furthermore, are all the exercises on max effort upper day supposed to be different then all of the exercises on repetition upper body day?

5- Additionally, why aren’t any exercises for concentrating on the medial shoulder and any exercise for concentrating on the triceps listed on the max effort upper body day like they are listed on the repetition upper body day?

[/quote]

1- Like I said earlier, performing 2 max effort upper body days per week is not optimal. You can use the same lift, but do it in the repetition style if you really wanted to, but I would suggest you follow the program as written and pick lifts from the list DeFranco gives.

2- It’s impossible to get stronger without them (this is the principle of progressive overload)

3- I believe you were confusing the principle of progressive overload and thinking that it only applies to programs that increase the weights (as percentage of 1RM) over time. Progressive overload applies to conjugate systems as well, because the whole basis of the program is breaking PR’s

4- Read the program and find out for yourself

5- If you set a 5RM, do you think your triceps and shoulders are stimulated?

[Bull_Scientist]

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

1- Like I said earlier, performing 2 max effort upper body days per week is not optimal. You can use the same lift, but do it in the repetition style if you really wanted to, but I would suggest you follow the program as written and pick lifts from the list DeFranco gives. [/quote]

Okay.

2- It’s impossible to get stronger without them (this is the principle of progressive overload)

I see. By getting stronger in those three main lifts (bench press, squat, and deadlift), you end up increasing your overall strength.

3- I believe you were confusing the principle of progressive overload and thinking that it only applies to programs that increase the weights (as percentage of 1RM) over time. Progressive overload applies to conjugate systems as well, because the whole basis of the program is breaking PR’s

Oh…so it can be okay to change exercises within the same week as long as you stick with the program.

4- Read the program and find out for yourself

Oh yeah. Lol. Well I just realized that actually all of the exercises on max effort day can be same as the exercises on repetition day, except the for the max effort lifts on the max effort days and the first exercise of each of the repetition days.

5- If you set a 5RM, do you think your triceps and shoulders are stimulated?

So you’re saying that it would be too much to do a isolation exercise for the triceps and an isolation exercise for the shoulders after doing a max effort bench variation within the same workout?

Speaking of bench variations, i have been doing the flat dumbbell bench press on repetition upper body. I am wondering as to whether or not you are supposed to use the powerlifting style with the dumbbell bench versions just as an athlete should with the barbell bench versions. Furthermore, since the set up with the dumbbells is different and more awkward compared to setting up with a barbell, how are you supposed to position your back in a way that will establish tightness throughout your entire back with dumbbells in your hands?

Also, with regard to doing the abdominal circuit on the max effort days, DeFranco never prescribed how many exercises, sets, and reps one should do. So i’ve been doing planks for as long as I can and then do as many crunches as I can. I do these two exercises together as a superset 3 times. I don’t know if this enough or if what I am doing is even correct?

In addition, I know that with most of the exercises listed in his program he has something like 2-3 sets for such an exercise or 3-4 sets for another exercise. I am wondering should i have started off with doing 2 sets for the exercises that are said to be done with -3 sets and 3 sets for the exercises that are said to be done with 3-4 sets, and then after about a month or two increase them to 3 sets for those respective exrcises and 4 sets for those respective exercise?

Additionally, for the max effort lifts I have been doing a few warm-up sets with each one gradually increasing in weight until I get close enough to my 5RM on for instance the bench press. Then, I do 3 working sets without going to failure. Now I realized earlier this week, after having re-read the W4SB program again and again, that it actually says to work up to a max set on a given max effort lift. So now I am concerned that I have been the exercise wrong, as I am not sure what exactly does he mean by working up to a max set.

One more thing, the first exercise that i have been doing for the repetition upper body day is flat dumbbell bench press for max reps on each set. However, I haven’t really been sure as to what weight I am supposed to use on each set without using too light or too heavy of a weight.

[T3hPwnisher]

You are overthinking this.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

So you’re saying that it would be too much to do a isolation exercise for the triceps and an isolation exercise for the shoulders after doing a max effort bench variation within the same workout?
[/quote]

Just do the program as written.

Speaking of bench variations, i have been doing the flat dumbbell bench press on repetition upper body. I am wondering as to whether or not you are supposed to use the powerlifting style with the dumbbell bench versions just as an athlete should with the barbell bench versions. Furthermore, since the set up with the dumbbells is different and more awkward compared to setting up with a barbell, how are you supposed to position your back in a way that will establish tightness throughout your entire back with dumbbells in your hands?

For the most part using a semi tucked elbow position will be “kinder” to the shoulder joints. Some people (myself included) also prefer to allow the Dumbbells/wrists to naturally externally rotate (rotate to a more neutral grip) at the bottom of the movement.

In regards to keeping the upper back tight, generally you just lay back then retract and depress the scapulae and start pressing. You aren’t using maximally heavy weights with these so setting the scaps once you lay back shouldn’t be too much of an issue.

Also, with regard to doing the abdominal circuit on the max effort days, DeFranco never prescribed how many exercises, sets, and reps one should do. So i’ve been doing planks for as long as I can and then do as many crunches as I can. I do these two exercises together as a superset 3 times. I don’t know if this enough or if what I am doing is even correct?

He doesn’t specify, but I would probably pick a couple other exercises, maybe a rotational/anti rotational element (like floor wipers or Renegade Rows) and a lateral flexion element (like Side Bends or Saxon Side Bends) since he says “pick a variety of ab exercises and perform them in circuit fashion”. If he had said “pick a few and superset them”, then I’d say your current approach would be accurate.

In addition, I know that with most of the exercises listed in his program he has something like 2-3 sets for such an exercise or 3-4 sets for another exercise. I am wondering should i have started off with doing 2 sets for the exercises that are said to be done with -3 sets and 3 sets for the exercises that are said to be done with 3-4 sets, and then after about a month or two increase them to 3 sets for those respective exrcises and 4 sets for those respective exercise?

Not necessarily, there is a range of sets prescribed

1. because different people/workouts will have different tolerances for volumes
2. so that you can progress the workouts by adding additional sets as well as additional reps and weight (gives you more types of progressive overload)

Additionally, for the max effort lifts I have been doing a few warm-up sets with each one gradually increasing in weight until I get close enough to my 5RM on for instance the bench press. Then, I do 3 working sets without going to failure. Now I realized earlier this week, after having re-read the W4SB program again and again, that it actually says to work up to a max set on a given max effort lift. So now I am concerned that I have been the exercise wrong, as I am not sure what exactly does he mean by working up to a max set.

He means that you should keep adding weight on each set until you reach the most weight that you can lift with good form for 5 reps that day. There is no set number of sets that it will take to get to this point, but you don’t want to make huge weight jumps from set to set once you get close. You definitely want to be well warmed up with this though and you should be a fair number of “ramping”/warm-up sets before attempting anything close to your predicted max weights. You are also going to want to rest 3-5 minutes between attempted max sets (assuming you were successful and felt that you could lift more, otherwise you are done with the exercise).

One more thing, the first exercise that i have been doing for the repetition upper body day is flat dumbbell bench press for max reps on each set. However, I haven’t really been sure as to what weight I am supposed to use on each set without using too light or too heavy of a weight.

It’s supposed to be a “Repetition” focused day, so you want to be able to do at least moderate to high reps, I wouldn’t use anything that you can’t get at least 15 reps with or more than 50, but you should be near technical failure by the end.

[Chris87]

You are really overthinking this. Pretty much everything you asked is answered if you just read the program.

For the ab circuit, pick a few exercises and superset them. If it was that important DeFranco would’ve put specific exercises and reps.

When it says 2-3 sets, do 2-3 sets. Again, not that important.

For the Max Effort lifts, DeFranco specifically wrote a guide on how to work up to a Max lift in the program.

For the Rep Effort lifts, pick a weight that allows you to get 15-20 reps on the first set.

[Bull_Scientist]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Just do the program as written. [/quote]

I have been doing the program while trying to learn as much as I can about the program methodology.

For the most part using a semi tucked elbow position will be “kinder” to the shoulder joints. Some people (myself included) also prefer to allow the Dumbbells/wrists to naturally externally rotate (rotate to a more neutral grip) at the bottom of the movement.

In regards to keeping the upper back tight, generally you just lay back then retract and depress the scapulae and start pressing. You aren’t using maximally heavy weights with these so setting the scaps once you lay back shouldn’t be too much of an issue.

Okay. thanks.

[quote]

He doesn’t specify, but I would probably pick a couple other exercises, maybe a rotational/anti rotational element (like floor wipers or Renegade Rows) and a lateral flexion element (like Side Bends or Saxon Side Bends) since he says “pick a variety of ab exercises and perform them in circuit fashion”. If he had said “pick a few and superset them”, then I’d say your current approach would be accurate.[/quote]

Okay, I get it now.

Not necessarily, there is a range of sets prescribed

1. because different people/workouts will have different tolerances for volumes
2. so that you can progress the workouts by adding additional sets as well as additional reps and weight (gives you more types of progressive overload)

Alright then, that makes sense.

[quote]

He means that you should keep adding weight on each set until you reach the most weight that you can lift with good form for 5 reps that day. There is no set number of sets that it will take to get to this point, but you don’t want to make huge weight jumps from set to set once you get close. You definitely want to be well warmed up with this though and you should be a fair number of “ramping”/warm-up sets before attempting anything close to your predicted max weights. You are also going to want to rest 3-5 minutes between attempted max sets (assuming you were successful and felt that you could lift more, otherwise you are done with the exercise). [/quote]

Ohh…I didnt realize that. I am glad you told me that because I made a mistake thinking that you’re supposed to end up doing 3-5 working sets of 5 reps on the max effort bench lift like it says in the Starting Strength and the 5x5 Strength programs. This is interesting now that i’ve realized this, because it seems DeFranco wants beginners to only end up doing only one if not maybe two working sets on the max effort lifts for the entire week along with rotating them every 2 weeks compared to rippetoe and Starr having beginners do the same max effort lifts for three days a week for each week. I guess this is because DeFranco’s template consists of a lot more hypertrophy based “assistance” exercises compared to Rippetoe’s and Starr’s programs.

It’s supposed to be a “Repetition” focused day, so you want to be able to do at least moderate to high reps, I wouldn’t use anything that you can’t get at least 15 reps with or more than 50, but you should be near technical failure by the end.

I don’t know this until now as well. On the repetition upper body days, i have been doing the first exercise with 4-6 reps per set because I thought that even though it is on a “repetition” focused day, you still want to have the first exercise be your most neuromuscularly demanding exercise which means that it consist of using a heavier load than the following exercises int that workout. Also, I thought it was better to lift heavy twice a week than lifting once a week in order to make significant and consistent progress.

[AnytimeJake]

If your comming from a 5x5 program, this is alot to take in. I’ve been at this 20yrs, and tried the w4sb with some of my clients a while back, it was just to complicated. In the strength world Defranco knows his stuff, I just had a hard time getting beginers to understand all this. Once you’ve been around awhile, all the options are probably a welcome break, buit at first mabey a little over whelming

[Aragorn]

[quote]Bull Scientist wrote:

Ohh…I didnt realize that. I am glad you told me that because I made a mistake thinking that you’re supposed to end up doing 3-5 working sets of 5 reps on the max effort bench lift like it says in the Starting Strength and the 5x5 Strength programs. This is interesting now that i’ve realized this, because it seems DeFranco wants beginners to only end up doing only one if not maybe two working sets on the max effort lifts for the entire week along with rotating them every 2 weeks compared to rippetoe and Starr having beginners do the same max effort lifts for three days a week for each week. I guess this is because DeFranco’s template consists of a lot more hypertrophy based “assistance” exercises compared to Rippetoe’s and Starr’s programs. [/quote]

Yes, but also because those top weight sets are supposed to be all out maxes. You are supposed to try to best your top weight week to week (keeping form obviously,), so failure is possible. The idea behind Starr etc is thst you are not really to hit failure PER SE…it is possible you miss reps yes, but you are accumulating volume week to week primarily, whereas Defranco has you maxing out.

Generally your 5x5 weights are not true rep maxes, because it is unlikely you would be able to sustain performance at a true max 5 sets. Also do not make the mistake thinking this is only for beginners–that is almost exsctly what the original Westside scheme calls for from beasts squatting 700+ lbs–just usually in their case it is a true one rep max or maybe a 3.

[Apoklyps]

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Yeah, school is a bullshit excuse. You got people on here, including myself, who went through grueling programs in school and still got their balls on and did work. Then you have people like Spock here who is a hardass chick, awesome person, single mom–I mean SUPERmom, works full time on top of being a single mom, and she still trains her butt off. Then you have people in medical school which is a full time job at 40 hours of classroom time a week + study time on top of that that train at least once a day, like RyanCXG. Then you have motherfuckers who work 70+ hours a week but still find time to train, like a couple clients of mine (one runs an ER hospital dept, you want to talk about stress?) + a bunch of people, plus me from time to time. THEN you have guys who work gruelling labor jobs doing concrete, roofing, or highway construction full time out in the sun that get off work and go to the gym.

There is almost no damn excuse. Ever. Everyone knows there will be times when shit goes down that result in a missed session or something. Family emergency, funeral, wedding, etc. Those are events. Not months of your life, even if you are dealing with massive fallout and stress you can still work hard. Excuses are excuses.[/quote]

Damn straight. That was an excellent post and very true. I’d even go so far as to say that MOST of the better lifters I know IRL are successful, driven people with very busy lives on the side. My school’s powerlifting club is mostly made up of med and law students, or people that are working to become med or law students. Not quite your usual meathead stereotype lol.

[Bull_Scientist]

Wait, why do at least 15 to 20 reps on the first exercise of a repetition? I mean, 15 to 20 reps tends to focus more on increasing muscular endurance range more so than increasing muscle mass.

[Diddy_Ryder]

When I tried WS4SB I used the original template that’s a bit more “bare bones” than the revised programmes. If you choose one of the options below you don’t need to worry about what weight to use, as this is taken care of for you, and you can just aim to improve your no. of reps.

A. REPETITION LIFT - Work up to 3 sets of max reps, rest 60 seconds between sets.

Choose one of the following exercises:

Barbell bench press (max reps on 95lbs., 135lbs., 185lbs. or 225lbs.)
Regular push-ups
Bodyweight dips

Are you enjoying the programme so far?

[nighthawkz]

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
Wait, why do at least 15 to 20 reps on the first exercise of a repetition? I mean, 15 to 20 reps tends to focus more on increasing muscular endurance range more so than increasing muscle mass. [/quote]

I think you should accept that, all in all, you know very little about all of this right now and shouldn’t jump to conclusions. 15-20 is still a muscle building range (I once heard Kai Greene does everything for 20 reps) so just stick to what, uh, this REALLY SUCCESSFUL coach recommends.

[T3hPwnisher]

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
Wait, why do at least 15 to 20 reps on the first exercise of a repetition? I mean, 15 to 20 reps tends to focus more on increasing muscular endurance range more so than increasing muscle mass. [/quote]

This is factually untrue. You need to drop all this “rep range” stuff that you think you learned.

[Chris87]

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
Wait, why do at least 15 to 20 reps on the first exercise of a repetition? I mean, 15 to 20 reps tends to focus more on increasing muscular endurance range more so than increasing muscle mass. [/quote]

Having muscular endurance is a good thing

[Bull_Scientist]

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
Wait, why do at least 15 to 20 reps on the first exercise of a repetition? I mean, 15 to 20 reps tends to focus more on increasing muscular endurance range more so than increasing muscle mass. [/quote]

I think you should accept that, all in all, you know very little about all of this right now and shouldn’t jump to conclusions. 15-20 is still a muscle building range (I once heard Kai Greene does everything for 20 reps) so just stick to what, uh, this REALLY SUCCESSFUL coach recommends.[/quote]

Yeah, but that’s Kai Greene. He a pro bodybuilder who is able to lift weights that are at least 3 times heavier than the amount of weight that I can lift on any exercise with 20+ reps. Therefore unlike me, Kai is able to generate tremendous intramuscular tension in combination with great time under tension on whatever exercise he works on, thereby resulting in the huge protein breakdown and stimulation on all his muscles which end up creating significant muscle mass gains.

[nighthawkz]

It was an example. Just realise that if Defranco says it works, it probably does.

Unsuccessful people and chronically skinny-fat “hardgainers” have one thing in common- they stress out and worry about EVERYTHING.

I’ve worked with thousands of these guys over the past 18 years and I can honestly say that the biggest thing holding them back is their never ending worrying and constant over-analyzing.

• Shit, I tried higher protein for two days and it didn’t work. Maybe I should do high carbs.?

• I increased my volume but now I?m sore. I?m overtrained. Back to Heavy Duty.?

• My biceps don?t cross my elbow joint like Larry Scott’s did; is it even worth me training??

• I hit failure on my squats today, should I go back tonight and redo the whole workout??

• The hill I ran sprints on was only about a 30 degree incline, but I could have sworn I read that 45 degrees was better. Was that a waste of my time??

• I lost five pounds of fat but now I look tiny. What should I do?! HELP ME???

Obviously, guys like this will never get anywhere. Their lives will be miserable and their gains in the gym will be piss poor.

That’s because they second-guess every single aspect of their diet and training.

When you do that you’re destined to fail. You have to have confidence and believe in what you are doing or you’re doomed from the get go."

(J. Ferruggia)

[Aragorn]

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
Wait, why do at least 15 to 20 reps on the first exercise of a repetition? I mean, 15 to 20 reps tends to focus more on increasing muscular endurance range more so than increasing muscle mass. [/quote]

Having muscular endurance is a good thing [/quote]

at least for most sports where, you know, you have to be going for 60 minutes or so.

Bull if you wanted a pure powerlifting or pure bodybuilding routine you asked for the wrong thing–your original question was a basic beginning program that would get you better at sport (Hapkido IIRC) for a guy who really didn’t lift. That’s the reason why we all recommended WS4SB to you in the first place.

It focuses on strength and size, along with OTHER QUALITIES people need in sports…which is a reason not everything is geared for “maximum mass” or pure 1 rep strength like you keep asking. You’ll get plenty strong if you do it right, but it has a more well-rounded approach for athletics than a BB program.

High reps are in there to build endurance and work capacity, and also contribute to mass. They do both. They’re not the very best for mass IMO, but they’re necessary and you best believe any time I train someone for a sport we have some sort of work capacity training in there whether it’s higher rep ranges like this or clusters or bodyweight stuff or sled pulling.

[Aragorn]

THANK YOU!!!

It’s like a premonition or something.

[Biskui]

OP… I don’t know if you realize how crazy and obsessed with bulls*** you sound here

I am a beginner too, so you will probably say I m full of shit and worthless, but still, this constant questioning is the worst mindstate you can have, and I am very sure of that, and not anymore in school, like most people here, who are more experienced at life than you. Yes, they are.

You can’t over-optimize things. You have to trust yourself and others and get to the gym and work for some time, 12 weeks being the common thing, and see the results, and then adapt & adjust, see the results, etc…

Man, I started to work out trying to get the best of 2 shitty dumbbells because that was all I had. I had no access to broscience, but after some months I made gains that makes me discover that yes, I had muscle that I did not know about there and there.

And you know what ? Seeing all that internet science & research (which is very interesting, by the way), is probably the worst thing that happened to me. I started, like you, to question everything and hit the weights less and less, being less confident, less strong, etc… I woke up every morning questioning myself “what if this is not the best routine ?”

Just go to the gym, sleep, have fun in your life, and eat your beef. At the end it all comes down to this.

Consider yourself extremely lucky being able to use a routine used in one of the most famous gym in the world, for free. Sometimes a reality check will save your ass. I sometimes stop all my thinking and say “man, I am training the way Eric Cressey advises to. This guy trains elite athletes.”

And it feels good.