[quote]zonis20 wrote:
CT, I bet you are getting annoyed with questions on para-workout nutrition, it is the most important part of the day for gaining mass and the science has changed so I would appreciate if you could look this over for a 60 minute workout. No Anaconda, Alpha, or FINiBARs yet.
-45 BCAA’s
-30 Workout Fuel w/ 5g Creatine
-10 Recovery
CH during workout (do I need fast carbs or anything with this to get max benefit?)
60 CH w/ 5g Creatine (I don’t need anything till this, correct?)
90 meal [/quote]
That’s fine for a ‘‘lean gaining phase’’… meaning that you will not gain muscle as fast, but it all be dry muscle (provided that the rest of the day looks good nutrition-wise).
You do not ‘need’ carbs during the workout as exercise (muscle contraction) can pull in nutrients into the muscle. This is non-insulin mediated nutrients transport.
How would you go about setting up para-workout nutrition for someone who doesn’t have access to all these recommended Biotest supplements? I live in Switzerland so ordering anything from the US essentially doubles the already fairly high cost (to a student at least), so I only have access to whey and whatever I can find at the average grocery store. I’m aware that the results would not be as good as if the recommeded supplements were used, but I’m sure that at least some of the same principles could be used (ie. you mentioned earlier in this thread that simply using table sugar could be used to boost insulin right before the workout).
Thanks!
With regards to carb/protein post-workout nutrition, I have read that the ensuing insulin spike can be detrimental to insulin sensitivity if someone has a higher amount of body fat. Would you suggest not using the protocol unless sufficient insulin sensitivity is attained?
I actually do not recommend post-workout carbs anymore. Catecholamines released during the training session reduces the response to insulin. So post-workout carbs are not super effective… not moreso than only post-workout protein.
I now recommend carbs PRE workout. This way you get your insulin spike to start loading up on aminos then you switch to a non-insulin mediated amino acid transport during the workout (muscle contraction is needed for this). This is the best way to get as much aminos as possible into the muscle, and thus to stimulate as much growth as possible.[/quote]
Christian,
if one were to ingest only protein during workout, wont the body want to use that for energy during the workout if a small amount of carbs isn’t present?
Also, if an individual ingests carbs preworkout (your recent protocol) and CH during WO the old saying that one needs or should have carbs PWO to spike insulin and push the protien into the muscles in a PWO shake is no longer valid when looking at the affects of a protein only shake PWO vs a Protein & Carb shake PWO???
just trying to grasp the concept better, thanks for the help and time.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
HG Thrower wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I actually do not recommend post-workout carbs anymore. Catecholamines released during the training session reduces the response to insulin. So post-workout carbs are not super effective… not moreso than only post-workout protein.
Whoa! Do you have any science or data to support this? We’ve been told for years that post-wo carbs are king for growth and insulin management, (Surge Recovery, etc.) with lots of studies to support. This would be a HUGE departure from that. (Not being a naysayer here, its just kind of a shock to hear) Or is there a difference between carb timing for minimizing bodyfat vs. maximizing muscle gain?
I must admit that the evidence is indirect. What has been found is that catecholamine are released during intense exercise and that they stimulate the release of glucagon. Glucagon is the antagonist hormone to insulin. Two antagonist hormones are rarely released to a significant extent at the same time. And if they are, they often counteract each other.
So even if insulin was released (it is to some degree) it doesn’t do its job quite a well (or at all) because of elevated glucagon levels.
''Glucagon and plasma catecholamine responses to graded and prolonged exercise in man
H. Galbo, J. J. Holst and N. J. Christensen
Glucagon concentrations correlated significantly with norepinephrine and epinephrine concentrations during prolonged and with epinephrine during graded exercise. Although increments in catecholamines were similar, the glucagon secretion was larger during prolonged than during graded exercise. While increments in catecholamines might explain increased glucagon secretion during graded exercise, they cannot account completely for the rise of glucagon during prolonged exercise. ‘’
[/quote]
I’m just seeing this now, wow. The last 3 years I’ve read about how carbs are BEST PWO and even PPWO and how insulin sensitivity is so much greater at this time. Now all of the sudden this.
I have also heard that raising insulin a ton pre-workout can cause a drop in blood sugar and is not good for a workout, what would be the argument against that for this protocol?
Hey Coach,
I plan on doing your Get Jacked on August 16th after my current routine since I have to lose some extra fat before I can try your upcoming I, BODYBUILDER program. Because of your new para-workout nutrition protocol, what would you change in the Get Jacked pre and post workout nutrition. Glutamine and protein powder are required during weeks 1-4, with fruit added in weeks 3 and 4. If I know where to place the fruit and glutamine, I believe I can figure out weeks 5-8.
I learned how to time the use of BCAA and Surge Workout Fuel in your other threads.
Thanks for your time.
For those who prefer to keep their supplement list to a minimum strictly for simplicity; will you have a recommended substitution list in the superprogram for the things that can be interchanged?
Example: personally, I already use Surge Workout Fuel and Surge Recovery and have a whey isolate on hand for meeting protein needs. Would I really need to use FINiBARs or Anaconda if/when it’s released as well? Or can I still structure it similarly adding more Surge Workout Fuel / protein powders etc. without bastardizing it?
Is this protocol applicable at all for an athlete that is restricted to a weight class? I mean I want to be as lean and strong as possible for my weight, but I can’t really pack on too much muscle which it seems this protocol is designed for. Is there a way of modifying it for my goals? Thanks for your time!
I posted this under Nate Green’s thread by accident:
First, I would like to assert that I love the research Biotest does. Second, Dr. Pasquale has an article dealing with carbs post-workout. In effect, he says that carbs are not necessary to increase protein synthesis & in fact, are detrimental to the insulin sensitivity brought about by a lifting session. He goes on to say that some peri-workout amino acids & a hefty protein + fat meal post-workout are more anabolic. Anybody have some thoughts? I have to know what the hell to do.
2
Beelen M, Koopman R, Stellingwerff T, Kuipers H, Saris WH, van Loon LJ. Co-ingestion
Of Carbohydrate With Protein Does Not Stimulate Post-exercise Muscle Protein
Synthesis Rates: 874: June 1 1:45 PM - 2:00 PM. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 May;39(5
Suppl):S83.
Hi CT or anyone using the two Protocols outlined here,
How are you adapting them for workouts lasting 90-120 minutes if you train for that long. I am feeling a drop off in energy/intensity in last the 30-45 minutes and I would really appreciate any feedback and help.
I adapted the protocol to longer workouts (usually 2 hours) by starting the workout with 2 scoops Anaconda and 1 or 1.5 scoops Surge Recovery, and having Surge Recovery pre-mixed so as to have one scoop or slightly more at each half-hour point. For example, I would use 3 or 4 scoops and have 1/3 of this drink at the 30, 60, and 90 minute points.
Nutrition prior to ever getting to the gym, and postworkout nutrition I think need not be done differently on account of the length of the workout.
However, when CT can give you a more authoritative answer, I would go with that.
I am currently on wk 5 in your get jacked program and was wondering if I should keep using Surge Recovery as recommended in the program or if I should use it before a workout or during and after?
CT,
I just have a quick question about the protocol. I thought that insulin was supposed to be kept to a minimum during a workout to avoid blunting the release of GH. I’m guessing that the protocol assumes that IGF-1 would be synthesized due to the presence of both GH and Insulin. Is this the logic of the protocol in terms of insulin release and GH? I’m just wondering if I’m missing something~
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I adapted the protocol to longer workouts (usually 2 hours) by starting the workout with 2 scoops Anaconda and 1 or 1.5 scoops Surge Recovery, and having Surge Recovery pre-mixed so as to have one scoop or slightly more at each half-hour point. For example, I would use 3 or 4 scoops and have 1/3 of this drink at the 30, 60, and 90 minute points.
Nutrition prior to ever getting to the gym, and postworkout nutrition I think need not be done differently on account of the length of the workout.
However, when CT can give you a more authoritative answer, I would go with that.
[/quote]
Thanks very much for the reply Bill. Unfortunately I’m not lucky enough to have access to Anaconda (;-> but have ordered Surge Workout Fuel, Surge Recovery and FINiBARs. How would you tweak CT’s first protocol for a two hour workout in this instance?
For clarity for others, the CT protocol being referred to is:
[quote]PROTOCOL 1 (1-3 times per week, when working on a weak area)
Workout - 60 = Alpha-GPC
W - 40 = 1 FINiBAR
W - 30 = 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
W - 15 = 2 scoops Surge Recovery
During workout (early half) = 1 FINiBAR
During workout (later half) = 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel
W + 15 = Grow! Whey 2 scoops
W + 90 minutes = Grow! Whey 2 scoops [/quote]
The way that in practice, before getting the Anaconda, I handled the 2 hour workouts was to continue taking Surge Workout Fuel at a rate of 1 scoop per half hour.
I didn’t use a FINiBAR before or during the workout, so can’t say from experience on that.
I now use Surge Recovery rather than Surge Workout Fuel for the during-workout nutrition, but that is because the situation is different. I have already had 2 scoops of Surge Workout Fuel and 2 scoops of Anaconda – which does everything Surge Workout Fuel does and more – so I am well covered in that regard. Without the Anaconda, switching to Surge Recovery instead of continuing with Surge Workout Fuel would have me inadequately dosed in those ingredients.
However in retrospect, I think it would be fine and I think would be advantageous to instead have the during-workout part as:
+15 min: 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel (plus 15, because this is half an hour from the previous 2 scoops.)
+45 min: 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel. This now gets us to 4 scoops total
Each half hour thereafter during the workout: 1 scoop Surge Recovery.
The advantage would be the added delivery of whey hydrolysate.
However it would certainly be acceptable to continue with more Surge Workout Fuel, as I formerly did and was quite happy with.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
For clarity for others, the CT protocol being referred to is:
PROTOCOL 1 (1-3 times per week, when working on a weak area)
Workout - 60 = Alpha-GPC
W - 40 = 1 FINiBAR
W - 30 = 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
W - 15 = 2 scoops Surge Recovery
During workout (early half) = 1 FINiBAR
During workout (later half) = 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel
W + 15 = Grow! Whey 2 scoops
W + 90 minutes = Grow! Whey 2 scoops
The way that in practice, before getting the Anaconda, I handled the 2 hour workouts was to continue taking Surge Workout Fuel at a rate of 1 scoop per half hour.
I didn’t use a FINiBAR before or during the workout, so can’t say from experience on that.
I now use Surge Recovery rather than Surge Workout Fuel for the during-workout nutrition, but that is because the situation is different. I have already had 2 scoops of Surge Workout Fuel and 2 scoops of Anaconda – which does everything Surge Workout Fuel does and more – so I am well covered in that regard. Without the Anaconda, switching to Surge Recovery instead of continuing with Surge Workout Fuel would have me inadequately dosed in those ingredients.
However in retrospect, I think it would be fine and I think would be advantageous to instead have the during-workout part as:
+15 min: 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel (plus 15, because this is half an hour from the previous 2 scoops.)
+45 min: 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel. This now gets us to 4 scoops total
Each half hour thereafter during the workout: 1 scoop Surge Recovery.
The advantage would be the added delivery of whey hydrolysate.
However it would certainly be acceptable to continue with more Surge Workout Fuel, as I formerly did and was quite happy with.[/quote]
Bill,
Do you not experience a crash during the workout from taking all of that sugar? Or is no crash experienced because you are constantly intaking sugar throughout the workout?
Precisely. As you point out the fact I’m taking it frequently – I don’t use the sip method, out of personal preference, but every half hour – prevents large fluctuations.
Additionally, the rate of caloric intake, including glucose, is not that high. 1 scoop Surge Recovery per half hour provides only 330 calories per hour. My rate of expenditure has to be higher than that. So a “sugar high” does not result.
I apologize if this has been asked (and if so, maybe someone can just point me to the page on the thread). But could you give some recommendations for early morning workouts? Sometimes I have to lift first thing in the morning. It’s not ideal and I never feel my best doing it, but sometimes it must be done or I’m not going to get a workout in.
And it’s not feasible to eat a real breakfast, wait to digest, and then eat again either. I usually just have some Surge Recovery before and Surge Workout mixed with Surge Recovery during the workout but don’t know that it’s the best approach. I’m also out of ideas for optimal approach when low-carbing it and forced to workout first thing in the morning.