I believe it was in one of the Physique Clinics where I read this. But I’m pretty sure CT said that stretching a muscle group after you have trained it only further tears the muscle fibers and therefore hinders recovery even more. That’s not a direct quote as I am not sure that’s how he put it. Anyone have any opinions on this, I’ve always did some static stretches for that muscle group afterward a good workout. What do you recommend? Sorry I’m sure this has been beaten to death.
[quote]PF_88 wrote:
I believe it was in one of the physique clinics where I read this. But I’m pretty sure CT said that stretching a muscle group after you have trained it only further tears the muscle fibers and therefore hinders recovery even more. That’s not a direct quote as I am not sure that’s how he put it. Anyone have any opinions on this, I’ve always did some static stretches for that muscle group afterward a good workout. What do you recommend? Sorry I’m sure this has been beaten to death.[/quote]
I think you must have misread what CT wrote, because I can’t believe he would way that stretching hinders recovery. From my understanding (and experience) stretching greatly aids recovery.
As far as what I’d recommend…
Good- Do a static stretch, lasting from 20-30 seconds, for each major muscle group that you work during your workout.
Better- Do a static stretch for every major muscle group, lasting from 20-30 seconds, after finishing your workout (regardless of what muscle groups you worked).
Best- Do a “myofascial” (also called a weighted/loaded/“extreme”) stretch for each major muscle group, lasting from 60-90 seconds (or even longer if preferred), immediately upon finishing working that muscle. Add weight or time as you progress.
The first two options should be relaxing and a great cool down. The third option will be down right painful and, if you are doing it right, will test your mental toughness more than your work sets. But, the third option will also produce the most profound results in terms of muscle mass, recovery and IMO flexibility.
Sentoguy CT did say that, but it was more in reference to standard passive stretching. He has written about and praised the fascia stretching(I believe he called it more of an isometric hold in the stretch position) for the benefits we both know about.
Well normally I would agree with that, but then I found what I was referring to, this is directly quoted from CT. This was his answer to being asked about post workout stretching.
"That’s just about as bad an idea as stretching beforehand. Some people think that stretching afterwards increases the speed of recovery… it’s actually the opposite!
When you stretch a muscle after you train it, you can actually cause further damage to the muscle fibers without increasing the growth stimulus. So basically it increases the time it takes you to recover without leading to greater results.
If you are dead set on stretching, stretch the muscles that have NOT been trained on that day. For example if you trained back you can stretch legs and chest. "
That’s found on page 6 of USCTrojan’s Physique Clinic. So no offense sentoguy, but I’ll take CT’s word over yours.
[quote]PF_88 wrote:
So no offense sentoguy, but I’ll take CT’s word over yours.[/quote]
Did you look hard enough and in the right context? Here’s CT doing discussing what he felt was the optimal way to be anabolic, special attention goes to step 4…
BTW, here are the 5 steps you should do in a workout to lead to an optimal anabolic milieu (this will help us better understand how to design a training program for an AAS user (this is adapted from the book AR and I are working on):
STEP 1: Perform an heavy exercise to boost testosterone output
STEP 2: Ingest a BCAA/glutamine (if you are dieting) or BCAA/carbs solution during the workout to minimize cortisol output
- The higher the testosterone/cortisol ratio is, the more anabolic your body will be
STEP 3: Special training technique to get a huge surge in lactic acid/pump which stimulates hGH production
STEP 4: Loaded stretching to up regulate IGF-1 receptors. Perform the loaded stretching after you finished training a muscle and when it’s at its maximum pump
STEP 5: Drink a post workout shake of carbs,glutamine, protein and leucine to boost insulin
and again here…
Other guy:After reading USC’s PC I noticed that you are not an advocate of post workout stretching. The DoggCrapp style of low volume includes a set of “extreme stretching” immediately following the muscle groups one working set. Am I correct to assume that you would think this is a mistake? Your response said that stretching post workout causes damage to the muscle that does not aid in muscle building. Could you expand on that?
CT:That type of ‘stretching’ isn’t detrimental because it is loaded stretching and induces a state of reactive hyperemia after the stretch has been completed. In a way it is a form of strength training; it’s an isometric hold performed in the stretched position.
There is a chapter about this in my book ‘Theory and Application of Modern Strength and Power Methods’.
For some science look here…
Progressive stretch overload of skeletal muscle results in hypertrophy before hyperplasia.
Antonio J, Gonyea WJ
J Appl Physiol 1993; 75:1263-71.
Abstract
Intermittent stretch of the anterior latissimus dorsi (ALD) muscle produces fiber hypertrophy without fiber hyperplasia (J. Appl. Physiol. 74: 1893-1898, 1993).
This study was undertaken to determine if a progressive increase in load and duration of stretch would induce extremely large muscle fiber areas or if the fibers would reach a critical size before the onset of fiber hyperplasia. Weights ranging from 10 to 35% of the bird’s mass were attached to the right wing of 26 adult quail while the left wing served as the intra-animal control. The stretch protocol was as follows: day 1 (10% wt), days 2 and 3 (rest), day 4 (15% wt), days 5-7 (rest), day 8 (20% wt), days 9 and 10 (rest), days 11-14 (25% wt), days 15 and 16 (rest), and days 17-38 (35% wt).
Birds were killed after 12, 16, 20, 24, and 28 days of stretch not including rest days.
Muscle mass increased 174% (12 days), 196% (16 days), 225% (20 days), 264% (24 days), and 318% (28 days).
Muscle length increased 60% (12 days), 34% (16 days), 59% (20 days), 50% (24 days), and 51% (28 days). Mean fiber area increased 111% (12 days), 142% (16 days), 75% (20 days), 90% (24 days), and 39% (28 days).
Fiber number, which was measured histologically, increased significantly by 82% only in the 28 days of stretch group. The percentage of slow tonic fibers did not change for any of the time points examined.
If you can’t interpret what that study said let me know.
[quote]PF_88 wrote:
So no offense sentoguy, but I’ll take CT’s word over yours.[/quote]
Good lord, does anyone even bother to read the thread before responding?
All I read was CT’s response there, so no I didn’t bother to read it all, that’s why I asked.
And thanks scott that helps and answers my question and also clears up my confusion.
Interesting that CT believes that post workout stretching (passive at least) can hinder recovery. I know personally that it always helped me in the past (though I definitely feel better results with the loaded stretching), as well as everyone I’ve ever trained. Perhaps there is some science to the reasoning, but it just doesn’t seem to hold up in my experience.
Hey, I guess you learn something new every day.
I will say though that I wholeheartedly agree about the loaded stretching. Fantastic practice to get into.
Can someone fill me in on loaded stretching?
[quote]-Tiberius- wrote:
Can someone fill me in on loaded stretching?[/quote]
Here’s a little slide show for some examples of the stretches, no sissy weights allowed…
http://img396.imageshack.us/slideshow/player.php?id=img396/4756/1163465404m2r.smil
I’ve been incorporating deep fascia stretching in to my post work out routine the last 2-3 months and have seen some pretty good results. So from personal experience I’d say it works.
[quote]ajax11 wrote:
I’ve been incorporating deep fascia stretching in to my post work out routine the last 2-3 months and have seen some pretty good results. So from personal experience I’d say it works.[/quote]
anyone have any routines for this? i just started doing fascia work but i dont have a good set routine…thanks
It’s really simple my man. After you a done training a bodypart very aggressively and painfully stretch it out. Let’s say you are doing chest and back today. If fascia stretching was top priority I’d have you do something along the lines of
Incline Bench Press ramped up to your heaviest 6-10 reps
Pec Deck(insert pump movement) for 10-12 reps then a drop only small enough to eek out another 5-6 reps.
Stretch your chest out with the dumbbell fly/press stretch I linked to for 90 seconds.
Reverse Grip Pulldown ramped up to your heaviest 6-10 reps
Pullover Machine same drop set as above
T Bar Row heaviest 6-10 reps
Stretch your back out with the hanging back stretch for 90 seconds
Post workout drink and go home. Repeat always training for more strength in the movements and longer times/heavier weights on the stretches.
Good stuff guys. I believe that myofascial stretching also increases the release of prostaglandins, which help in our quest to increase muscle growth.