Question about the feasibility of recomposition

Hi,

Over the last year and a bit, I’ve definitely fit the profile of someone spinning their wheels. I firstly bulked too hard, took in way too many calories and gained too much fat, and was doing way too much volume to the point progress stalled. I then decided to reset and go on a cut to get rid of the fat, which took me to the other end of the extreme of very low calories.

I’d gained some decent strength and maybe a bit of muscle when all was said and done, but comparing my pictures and considering the huge amount of effort I’d put in doing the wrong things, it was a massive disappointment. This was the timeline in pictures:


progress pic 2

The general consensus was that I should forget about the concepts of bulking and cutting, sit around maintenance while consuming high quality, protein-dense meals, and train like hell for progress – so a recomposition strategy.

Unfortunately, shortly after that point, I had to have some surgery on my jaw. Nothing major, but I had some plates in there that basically prevented me from training for months while the bone healed.

In that time, my body essentially defaulted to what I presume is my natural body fat setpoint. I was just eating normally at this point, which I was around 2200 to 2500 calories, and after a month of being back at training, I now look like this at 162, so 9lbs or so of fat and water added:



pic 5

So my main thoughts now are to give recomposition a shot following the template that I outlined above, but I’m a little cautious about it.

Having been going around in circles for over a year now, the prospect of spending a good one or two years at maintenance does concern me a a bit. From what I can tell, it’s very difficult to actually see yourself making visible progress on a recomp, so I’d just worry this would end up marking the winning trifecta of failed bulk, failed cut, and then failed body recomposition :sweat_smile:.

I’m also struggling to understand the logistics surrounding how long and for who a recomp is actually effective for. It’s obviously most effective in rank beginners, and while I surely haven’t exhausted my noob gains despite training for years (because I’ve been doing the wrong stuff) it’s difficult to get an accurate representation of my ‘level’. I know it’s low, but the question is how low, and is it low enough to really be able to shake things up with a recomp. Bit concerned I’m in the worst category of not a total noob where a recomp is super effective, but obviously not out of the beginner stage where I’d have enough of a base to which the direction I should go in would be super obvious.

I do wish I was at that leaner weight of 153; I was reading Jeff Nippards book, and his take on recomp was basically to have a ‘main’ goal of either losing fat or building muscle, and then you’re actually in a very small surplus or very small deficit. Which when you think about it, has to essentially be what’s happening when you try to recomp anyway – you’re aiming for around maintenance and each day but you’re going to be very slightly in a surplus or deficit which adds up over time.

Looking at where I’m at now, do you think I’m in an ideal position to really give this recomp a shot? Is it a better shot than ripping that bit of fat off to get back to 153 and then continue on a very slow surplus? I’m presuming so. Tagging @jskrabac and @TrainForPain as I know you’re both very knowledgeable in this area. Thanks!

no.

yes

how is your training set up?

what were your macros the last three days?

1 Like

I don’t think so. I would only ever advise beginning an extended recomp phase when you are at your absolute leanest, and leaner than any of the 6 photos you posted. You’d probably have to get down to 140lb and lower to hit the level I’m talking about.

1 Like

I feel like getting away from the words “bulk” “cut” and “maintenance” and just focusing on food QUALITY and re-establishing good habits in the kitchen and in the gym will carry you MUCH further over the next 6 months, at which time you can better re-evaluate your standing and see where to go.

One of the best things about hitting rock bottom is you have nowhere to go but up.

6 Likes

IMO, this is the absolute best strategy to achieve what most everyone lifting weights is trying to get. (except strength-only focused).

3 Likes

Well for the last week, it’s been around 2600 calories, 150g of protein, 250-300g of carbs, and about 80g of fat. Thanks.

1 Like

What would you advise in my case, then? Because I don’t think I have the mass to sustain getting that lean – my calories were super low at like 1500 to get to 153 (although granted, had I approached things better it might not have had to get to quite that point). Thanks.

I definitely resonate with this, but isn’t this essentially recomping anyway? I have a tough time envisaging what’s going to happen without some goal in either direction, because as I say, I’m worried about spinning my wheels again. I’m concerned I’d try this and just basically make no progress, because I’d have neither enough calories to build muscle and too much to lose fat. Thanks.

1 Like

So what actually happens when you try to do this? Isn’t this essentially recomping? Where is the body getting the energy it needs to make visible, measurable progress? Thanks.

No. It’s being a human being.

without some goal

Make the method the goal. I said 6 months: that’s the goal. “For 6 months, I will not miss a workout, and for 6 months I will not deviate from my nutrition plan”

I’m concerned I’d try this and just basically make no progress, because I’d have neither enough calories to build muscle and too much to lose fat.

This is why I feel this approach is critical: it will help break this mindset.

2 Likes

I don’t care for title names. It is essentially eating to feed and grow muscle, while letting the mirror guide your (clean) calorie intake. The better your genetics, the faster your body will respond. Without good genetics you need patience.

The only macro that you must count is protein intake. If you are not choosing to go keto level carbohydrates, IMO you must eat enough carbohydrates to not get weaker. (@T3hPwnisher is the man to guide you when going very low carbohydrates.) I could never stand ever getting weaker for any reason. That is my ultimate metric for achieving my best body composition.

You need to be patient. Progress might come slow. Protein, protein, protein, and more protein. All you are looking for is looking better in the mirror, while not getting weaker, and hopefully getting stronger. This is all seedtime and harvest. They don’t happen simultaneously. The seed needs to be feed and allowed to root, then become a mature tree or shrub, and only then can it bear fruit that you will see as “harvest” in the mirror.

5 Likes

My advice is to follow the advice given to you when you first asked, and was mostly repeated in this thread so far. The only thing that’s changed is you had a minor setback surgery and allowed yourself to gain a little extra fat. Why are you going back on your gameplan from before? Did you expect different advice this time around?

It sounds like you bounce between extremes of over and under eating. You can’t force extra muscle on by adding too many calories, but you can force extra fat. You can’t force extra fat loss by rapidly dropping calories without sacrificing strength and muscle. This should be a very slow and deliberate process. For me it’s telling that in your time away from the gym, you added almost 10lb. This points to lifestyle choices not being dialed in and sounds like you’re missing the forest for the trees. I’ve had setbacks keep me from the gym for months before, but I never gained any bodyfat.

Lastly, bump your protein to at least 200g.

4 Likes

bookmarked

Thanks for the tag! I really don’t have anything to add to the advice here. I do think it sounds like your hang up is around language and whether you’re making progress.

While I do like the idea of having a process, vs outcome, goal like @T3hPwnisher mentioned, I think you’re going to need some metrics to let your mind rest so you can just do the work. I’d pick an absolute strength metric and a relative body weight strength metric. As an example, say you want to add 20lbs to your 10RM bench and be able to do 3 sets of 15 pull-ups. That way you know you’re getting stronger and not getting fatter. Then just tick off consecutive days of hitting your training and nutrition plan, over and over and over, and you’ll find yourself in a great spot.

2 Likes

My advice is to follow the advice given to you when you first asked, and was mostly repeated in this thread so far. The only thing that’s changed is you had a minor setback surgery and allowed yourself to gain a little extra fat. Why are you going back on your gameplan from before? Did you expect different advice this time around?

Before I got replies to this thread I think I was confused on the distinction between recomp and what’s been suggested as clean eating and hard training without tracking. So I was under the assumption the added bodyfat might change things.

I guess because it’s been suggested that recomp – where I’d be losing fat and building muscle concurrently – isn’t a viable option for me right now, I’m a bit confused as to what will actually be happening once I don’t track anything apart from protein and just shoot for progress. I’m worried it won’t go any other way other than me just very slowly gaining both fat and muscle as I naturally slip into a very slight surplus, and doesn’t that mean that I’ll just basically eventually end up back at an uncomfortably high bodyfat percentage and be faced with the same issue as I had at the start of last year?

It sounds like you bounce between extremes of over and under eating. You can’t force extra muscle on by adding too many calories, but you can force extra fat. You can’t force extra fat loss by rapidly dropping calories without sacrificing strength and muscle. This should be a very slow and deliberate process. For me it’s telling that in your time away from the gym, you added almost 10lb. This points to lifestyle choices not being dialed in and sounds like you’re missing the forest for the trees. I’ve had setbacks keep me from the gym for months before, but I never gained any bodyfat.
Lastly, bump your protein to at least 200g.

Most certainly, and as you rightly identified before as neurotic tendencies, I have OCD, so the notion of abandoning all this terminology so that I can stop obsessing about it definitely sounds like a good way forward.

What did you do when you first started out? Was this more minimalist approach the route you took? Cheers.

Got ya. I think you’re right, I need a mindset flip more than anything else, thanks!

1 Like

Solid analogy, thank you for the advice.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I think because I’ve been messing things up for so long, it’s like, I want to make damn sure the next thing I do has a clear metric for progress. I need to both get away from the whole, bulk, cut, recomp etc stuff but at the same time, as you say, I have to have some indication that ‘yes, you’re building muscle and this is worth it’.

I like that idea of having a strength metric, that sounds like a solid plan. I think if I just keep the idea of always pushing to get stronger in mind I hopefully shouldn’t really go wrong as you say!

What can you tell us about your training?

You say you’ve put in way to much effort for minimal gains; what are you doing?

What was your lifting like when you bulked and volumized too much? Did you add any weight to your lifts?

What were you doing when you cut calories and lost all the weight? More or less lifting? What happened to your strength?

1 Like

Training has been full body three times per week. You’d basically hit four big compounds and then move onto some isolation work. So it was like eight exercises in total.

I volumized too much because each set was too intense…I was basically doing several straight sets to failure, so I might do slightly lighter weight on bench for the first set of four, and then the next set one rep shy of failure, and then two sets to all-out failure, which was obviously too much. Especially when you’re doing that for like three or four other big compounds and then adding in extra isolation work on top of it.

My strength went up in the beginning, but after months of doing that it ground to a halt. I wasn’t losing strength, but I wasn’t improving. I’d been struggling with the concept of worrying my sets weren’t really enough to stimulate growth if I wasn’t at a very close proximity to failure, and so while I knew the science, my mind couldn’t really wrestle with the idea of ‘risking it’ and then all the calories I was eating going to fat…which ended up happening, ironically, following my poor logic at mitigating that risk.

I suffer from OCD, which I’m in therapy for now, so I’m trying to get past those neurotic elements in my training and learn to be more moderate and train better.

I cut the volume right back when I started cutting, basically doing a warm up set and then one set to failure. Despite the low calories, for the first time in ages, I actually started progressing in strength during the cut, and that was when it dawned on me I’d been majorly over doing it. Got up to a 10 rep max at 200lbs and that’s where my strength is at the moment. Thanks.

1 Like