[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
If I pre exhaust my triceps, it doesn’t cause my shoulders to fire first. My tris are already warmed up, they’re firing first. And they’re going to fail first. Which means I can no longer perform the movement and my shoulders barely got a workout.
You trollin’ bro?[/quote]
? Do you really think I am talking about using so much weight that you are going all out on triceps? We are talking about fatigue here. The goal is not all out failure of a muscle to fire at all.
WTf?[/quote]
I’m not either. Start typing slower and maybe we’ll understand each other a little better. Because right now the only person in this thread being misunderstood has a name that almost rhymes with molester sex. [/quote]
Either way, yes, it will make the movement harder at first…because now your chest is actually doing more of the bench pressing.
[quote]ironmanzvw wrote:
Worst case scenario, I get an additional tricep pump with my chest workout lol.
[/quote]
Basically. That is why people did it. But then, the guys I learned this shit from wouldn’t know what a “bb.com” was if it slapped 'em in the back of the traps.
I don’t think X has this correct. Whatever he and other big guys have done, when Arthur Jones and other early bodybuilding coaches discussed pre-fatiguing/ pre-exhaustion training, the goal was to fatigue the BIG muscle groups, not the assisting ones. On the bench press, for example, the shoulders and triceps tend to give out before the pecs, leaving your chest understimulated. Consequently, Jones and others suggested pre-fatiguing the major muscle group (the pecs) prior to bench pressing with a single joint movement like flies. This would do two things - (1) it would improve mind-muscle connection, allowing you to better utilize the pecs during the movement; (2) it would ensure that the pecs tired out before or at the same time as the triceps and shoulders.
Training the smaller muscles like the triceps and shoulders only exacerbates the problem - even if it lets you feel your chest a bit more, because your triceps and shoulders are already fatigued, you will be completing even FEWER reps (thus stimulating the chest less) than if you pre-fatigue the chest.
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
I don’t think X has this correct. Whatever he and other big guys have done, when Arthur Jones and other early bodybuilding coaches discussed pre-fatiguing/ pre-exhaustion training, the goal was to fatigue the BIG muscle groups, not the assisting ones. On the bench press, for example, the shoulders and triceps tend to give out before the pecs, leaving your chest understimulated. Consequently, Jones and others suggested pre-fatiguing the major muscle group (the pecs) prior to bench pressing with a single joint movement like flies. This would do two things - (1) it would improve mind-muscle connection, allowing you to better utilize the pecs during the movement; (2) it would ensure that the pecs tired out before or at the same time as the triceps and shoulders.
Training the smaller muscles like the triceps and shoulders only exacerbates the problem - even if it lets you feel your chest a bit more, because your triceps and shoulders are already fatigued, you will be completing even FEWER reps (thus stimulating the chest less) than if you pre-fatigue the chest. [/quote]
I agree with you. If I am doing bench press I surely wont prefatigue my triceps first rather pecs… You wont train much your chest if your triceps dont have fuel to lift anymore
Stu was dead on in his understanding of pre-fatiguing. You can’t isolate muscles during compound lifts, Professor X. I know you know that, but that’s in essence what your model implies - somehow, by weakening the muscles that assist in the lift, you think the primary muscle group being worked gets called into play more. But that simply isn’t the case - if I can bench 315 lb. 12 times before my triceps give out, and my pecs could actually handle 15 reps, why would I pre-fatigue triceps so that I can now only get 8 or 9 reps? The load on the pecs diminishes automatically. If, on the other hand, I pre-fatigue my pecs with flies, my chest muscles are not only activated, but they will also require fewer repetitions for full stimulation. Thus, after pre-fatiguing, even if my triceps can only handle 315 lb. for 12 reps, my pecs can now be adequately stimulated within a rep range my triceps can handle.
Just for the record, I don’t like pre-exhaustion training anyway. I don’t like doing anything that limits the amount of weight I can handle on exercises, but that’s just me.
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
Stu was dead on in his understanding of pre-fatiguing. You can’t isolate muscles during compound lifts, Professor X. I know you know that, but that’s in essence what your model implies - somehow, by weakening the muscles that assist in the lift, you think the primary muscle group being worked gets called into play more. But that simply isn’t the case - if I can bench 315 lb. 12 times before my triceps give out, and my pecs could actually handle 15 reps, why would I pre-fatigue triceps so that I can now only get 8 or 9 reps? The load on the pecs diminishes automatically. If, on the other hand, I pre-fatigue my pecs with flies, my chest muscles are not only activated, but they will also require fewer repetitions for full stimulation. Thus, after pre-fatiguing, even if my triceps can only handle 315 lb. for 12 reps, my pecs can now be adequately stimulated within a rep range my triceps can handle.
Just for the record, I don’t like pre-exhaustion training anyway. I don’t like doing anything that limits the amount of weight I can handle on exercises, but that’s just me.[/quote]
How would you know how your body would respond long term? Of course it would lessen the weight used INITIALLY. That doesn’t change anything else I wrote other than arguing about the term itself.
I personally have had no reason to do this aside from with my biceps.
I have never met anyone who takes that approach. If I pre-fatigued my triceps before benching, it would turn it into a triceps movement for me,[/quote]
? If you did some sets of triceps extensions first this means you can’t bench?[/quote]
I’m not sure how you inferred that from what I said. I simply stated that it would prioritize fatigue on my triceps and not my chest, which is the opposite of what i would want.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]bcingu wrote:
and seemingly everyone else in this thread (and in every gym I’ve ever been to). My chest wouldn’t have the opportunity to be overloaded because it would be limited by my triceps’ fatigue. Different strokes, I suppose.[/quote]
If your chest can’t do a bench press because your triceps got tired, that is a sure fire sign that your triceps are involved too much and take too much of the stress during the movement.[/quote]
Except in this scenario, the only reason my triceps got tired is because I just pre-fatigued them.
If my triceps, in general, tired out too quickly, then pre-fatiguing them before benching would ensure that they were the limiting factor in how much I could bench, preventing my chest from getting fully stimulated.
Except in this scenario, the only reason my triceps got tired is because I just pre-fatigued them.
If my triceps, in general, tired out too quickly, then pre-fatiguing them before benching would ensure that they were the limiting factor in how much I could bench, preventing my chest from getting fully stimulated.[/quote]
INITIALLY…until your chest takes up the slack and works harder.
You do realize the goal is progression, right?
the goal is to teach your chest to work harder…to FEEL it working harder…something easier to do if the original prime mover has been taken out.
No offense, but I could see if what I was writing simply made no logical sense…but it does…and I did it.
Except in this scenario, the only reason my triceps got tired is because I just pre-fatigued them.
If my triceps, in general, tired out too quickly, then pre-fatiguing them before benching would ensure that they were the limiting factor in how much I could bench, preventing my chest from getting fully stimulated.[/quote]
INITIALLY…until your chest takes up the slack and works harder.
You do realize the goal is progression, right?
the goal is to teach your chest to work harder…to FEEL it working harder…something easier to do if the original prime mover has been taken out.
No offense, but I could see if what I was writing simply made no logical sense…but it does…and I did it.[/quote]
No offense taken. That’s why I said “different strokes,” as opposed to “you are objectively wrong.” Finding what works in the gym is all about trial and error. The fact that the method I use works for me (and seemingly most people) says nothing about the efficacy of your method for you or anybody else.
If you have HUGE triceps and small chest then you wont need to do tricep extensions to blow out your chest. Since your chest will be fatigued way sooner than your triceps.
If you have TINY triceps and big chest, and you do tricep extensions first you wont be able to do benchpress enough to fatigue your chest before your triceps give out. Hence, people do peckdeck first.
Doing tricep extensions on chest day before bench press is like doing curls before pulldowns.
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
I don’t think X has this correct. Whatever he and other big guys have done, when Arthur Jones and other early bodybuilding coaches discussed pre-fatiguing/ pre-exhaustion training, the goal was to fatigue the BIG muscle groups, not the assisting ones. On the bench press, for example, the shoulders and triceps tend to give out before the pecs, leaving your chest understimulated. Consequently, Jones and others suggested pre-fatiguing the major muscle group (the pecs) prior to bench pressing with a single joint movement like flies. This would do two things - (1) it would improve mind-muscle connection, allowing you to better utilize the pecs during the movement; (2) it would ensure that the pecs tired out before or at the same time as the triceps and shoulders.
Training the smaller muscles like the triceps and shoulders only exacerbates the problem - even if it lets you feel your chest a bit more, because your triceps and shoulders are already fatigued, you will be completing even FEWER reps (thus stimulating the chest less) than if you pre-fatigue the chest. [/quote]
This is how the techique is explained in every training manual I have ever seen going back to 1981.
[quote]NikH wrote:
If you have HUGE triceps and small chest then you wont need to do tricep extensions to blow out your chest. Since your chest will be fatigued way sooner than your triceps.[/quote]
This isn’t true in all cases at all. If your triceps are huge and your chest is lagging from CHEST WORK, then it implies your triceps are the prime mover. Fatiguing them would mean the chest needs to work harder.
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
I don’t think X has this correct. Whatever he and other big guys have done, when Arthur Jones and other early bodybuilding coaches discussed pre-fatiguing/ pre-exhaustion training, the goal was to fatigue the BIG muscle groups, not the assisting ones. On the bench press, for example, the shoulders and triceps tend to give out before the pecs, leaving your chest understimulated. Consequently, Jones and others suggested pre-fatiguing the major muscle group (the pecs) prior to bench pressing with a single joint movement like flies. This would do two things - (1) it would improve mind-muscle connection, allowing you to better utilize the pecs during the movement; (2) it would ensure that the pecs tired out before or at the same time as the triceps and shoulders.
Training the smaller muscles like the triceps and shoulders only exacerbates the problem - even if it lets you feel your chest a bit more, because your triceps and shoulders are already fatigued, you will be completing even FEWER reps (thus stimulating the chest less) than if you pre-fatigue the chest. [/quote]
This is how the techique is explained in every training manual I have ever seen going back to 1981. [/quote]
this is how I understand the technique as well. John Meadows uses the term like this too and he sure knows his onions.
I think this argument is 100% semantic now really
[/quote]
It really isn’t. I think it is understood I may be using the wrong WORD to call this…but we are not discussing the same techniques at all. The concept is pretty simple. I am a little surprised at the resistance.
Clearly, X got it wrong what “pre-fatiguing” refers to (see below). Now the only question that is left, is whether X’s method is useful or not. I personally don’t know and don’t really care, but it should be telling that “pre-fatiguing” is the typical way to approach the problem and not his way.
For example, Thib says:
"Pre-fatigue (isolation first, compound second): Advantageous if you have problems recruiting a muscle group during a compound movement. Pre-fatiguing the muscle group will make it fail first during the compound lift. Pre-fatiguing the muscle will also increase the mind-muscle connection as you’ll “feel it” more because of the pre-existing fatigue/burn. So if you have problems “feeling” or recruiting a certain muscle group, pre-fatigue might be the solution. The downside is that you’ll have to use less weight for the compound movement because of the pre-fatigued state of the muscle.
For example, you might perform the bench press to build up your pecs, but if your front delts and/or triceps are overpowering, chances are that your chest will be left sub-optimally stimulated from your bench pressing work. By adding an isolation exercise for the pectorals either after (post-fatigue), before (pre-fatigue), or before and after (pre and post-fatigue) you’ll be able to fully fatigue the chest."
Please sir…by all means…get me swole. I will indeed fart to the west for you.
Ok so say I’m doing chest. I could start by doing some high rep tricep push downs and laterals? I know it’s not an exact science, but would say…3 sets of each at around 15 reps do the trick? Would I have accomplished farting in the direction that the sun sets?[/quote]
Yes, that is what I would do. Do a few sets with the goal of FATIGUING the triceps, not all out failure so they don’t work anymore. The goal is not super heavy weight here.[/quote]
Gotccha, I will give it a try next week. Worst case scenario, I get an additional tricep pump with my chest workout lol.
Thanks Professor.[/quote]
Dont listen to this completely ridiculous advice. Seriously.