Hello, first of all, thanks for your time, patience and initiative on doing this.
You mentioned supplementation can be crucial and be a big plus to a diet. So what would you recommend using and/or staying away from in terms of fat burning supplements?
Yohimbine, caffeine, L-Carnitine/Acetyl L-Carnitine, Ephedrine, etc? Could you list as well the best time/way and dosages for whatever of these you recommend?
Thank you very much for your time and caring enough to start this dialogue.
A pardon to everyone for me being new here. Been a customer of T-Nation and reader for years. It is about time I posted.
I have read every single First Time Cycle post on this site. But your opinion matters and I greatly appreciate your time in advance.
39 years old. Genetically not gifted. I am mainly ecto with tiny bit of Meso. Thinner bone structure, (ankles, wrists) not pure Mesomorph by any stretch.
I am 181 pounds and right at 11% BF skinfold 15.3%(exascan) Highest BF I have bee in years due to eating so much with my new diet over past year and reducing cardio to bulk. Been training exclusively bodybuilding style 5 days per week for 2 years. Before that Olympic Lifts and general weightlifting for fitness for 12 years as a military Captain. My conditioning was insane, maintained 8% BF year-round for years. But my training was mainly catabolic obviously. Strict diet planned by a IFBB Pro Coach for past 12 months.
I have access to a top TRT doc in California. Arguably the guy to go to.
He wants me to start a basic protocol and monitor me to see how I react to sides and to the stuff. My test levels are normal. My general health is perfect so far thankfully. Cholesterol, thyroid, liver all perfect. No history of diabetes or cancer in family. He said he will make me 26 years old again in terms of hormone profile and then maintain and monitor me. Is this a waste of time? The smart way to do it? I HIGHLY doubt he will give me Tren, high doses of Test or many of the other compounds in your first cycle recommendation. Probably not GH either.
My goal is to be around 200 pounds at 10% year round and then for summers like every other fool cut down to 190. I have no desire to be bigger than that or be stage ready. Is this sustainable and doable through training alone at my age? I am VERY committed, eat very strict and train at a very high intensity and monitor rest religiously.
Or will it help to be on a lighter TRT protocol or another heavier cycle?
If you think another cycle cycle would help, what would you recommend for my case?
Really appreciate your guidance and opinion.
This is the best thread ever, thanks a lot Shadow!!!
[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
wtf is this run on 1st time posters?[/quote]
I know right, most of these questions are common knowledge and can be answered with a little research. Quit clogging this thread up
[/quote]
What is common knowledge? Prior to today many of us believed or at least something to the tune of Bostin Loyd’s nonsense. Not that I intended to ever implement such extremes but I was certain that pro’s were running at least 10 grams of gear per week. Until today you would have never got me to believe that they EVER come off.
[quote]suckness wrote:
Can you tell us a little about the training?
Hitting one bodypart just once a week is enough? failure\non failure
Natural vs on gear
For me it seems every pro is like 3-4 sets of 10-12 reps blablabla, allways the same.
Apreciate your time and knowledge very mutch![/quote]
Training is very individual, the training programs you find in magazines are usually a bunch of bs.
There are a lot of great training programs here on T-Nation that will suit anyone. Have a look, or tell me what your goals are and I can suggest.
Check out these to name a few:
5/3/1-Jim Wendler (powerlifting)
Reactive Pump- John Meadows(bodybuilding)
How I got muscle to grow - Amit Sapir(strength/bodybuilding)
I,Bodybuilder-Christian Thibaudeau(bodybuilding)
[quote]yamar1 wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
wtf is this run on 1st time posters?[/quote]
I follow T Nation on facebook and they linked to this thread. I joined the forum just to ask him the question that I wanted to. it isn’t everyday you get to ask a guy of this caliber questions.
so come at me bro![/quote]
Keep asking, that’s why I’m here!
[quote]lifter85 wrote:
This is a serious question I have so I hope it goes through. I have never taken anything more than a natural test booster like TRIBEX. I do not have any desire to take more than that, but I am honestly curious about this. For someone with rather shitty genetics when it comes to growth capabilities, do you think it is possible for someone who does not take anything other than say caffeine, fish oil, multi, and some creatine to attaina physique that looks like the person seriously lifts?
Personally I have been lifting consistently without taking more than prescribed days off and eaten big and well for 9 yrs now and one still wouldnt peg me as a lifter. At 5’9" 170 lbs I have a powerlifting total of 435/280/510 which I think is fairly strong, but every single time I go past 170 lbs it is entirely fat accumulation. I have worked up to 200 lbs before but just got very fat (38 inch waist). So I am honestly wondering if you believe it is possible for someone to look very big muscularly as an entirely natural person.[/quote]
First of all,congratulations on 9 years of training hard and eating clean. I think you can definitely look better if this is you in the avatar picture then I think you pretty good but still have potential to get bigger and look better without drugs.
When you say you want to look like someone who seriously lifts, you’d need to describe the look you are wanting to achieve. A lot of power lifters train extremely hard and intense but they would look like a regular guy on the street. If you want to look like a professional bodybuilder however then you wouldn’t be able to achieve that look without the steroids(just being honest) but if you take a look at the pro men’s physique this is definitely an attainable look…
At 5’9, you could easily be about 200-220lbs shredded. If you are only 170 I can assume that something in your training, diet and supplementation isn’t right. There are also a lot of great supplements on the market besides the TRIBEX (which is also good) that will help you progress, just off the top of my head Micro-PA has been getting great reviews for natural athletes.
[quote]CarterJ1987 wrote:
Thank you so much for your time and information.
Do you know, or could you please speculate, what Arnold Schwarzenegger took during his days of training?
Is drug usage the biggest difference in body composition from the days of 70’s bodybuilding to today? Or do you feel there are other factors leading to the change?[/quote]
This is a huge speculation because I don’t know him personally, I’d have to assume something very simple and basic like dbol, testosterone of all types, maybe winstrol… The good ol basics. Take into consideration, most of the physiques from the 70’s would never even make it to a pro stage these days… Completely different sport in those eras. Don’t get me wrong, I love these classical physiques but it’s very far from what the sport is today.
Training methods and science are far advanced these days and the drugs obviously are playing a huge part in what you see on stage now.
[quote]Yogi wrote:
If it’s not too much trouble, could you describe how you’d set up insulin use for someone who doesn’t drink shakes and gets all their macros from solid food?
Goals are gain muscle, fat gain be damned![/quote]
Option1: Before breakfast… 5-10iu and then eat 50-100g of carbs (1/2 from simple carbs and 1/2 from complex) this could be oats and honey for one example.
Option2: post workout… 5-10iu (70% simple carbs, 30% complex) these could come from banana, honey, jam, dextrose, pineapple juice and the rest from rice cakes or white rice. (A ratio of 10g to 1iu is a good place to start)
*do not eat fat within the 4 hour window
The most efficient way will always be before the workout, but this will not be an option unless you are willing to try an intraworkout shake and forget about one solid meal.
Just curious, what is your logic behind just solid meals?
[quote]Ragon wrote:
I’m more for Poliquin/Pakulski/Kiefer approach, carbs at the right time (around training period). But I agree, that there are some people with fast metabolism, whose bodies react well to carbs. Sadly, I’m definitely not one of them, so that that’s why I’m asking. [/quote]
I believe this as well. The best time to consume carbs(if you’re carb sensitive) is pre workout, intraworkout and post workout. It all depends on metabolism and body type.
I read these forums for years soaking it up until I decided to post. I had a question I would have liked to have it answered by someone who knew a lot. Then decided to answer questions that were under my scope of experience, and add my 2 cents here and there. Im glad to have an influx of new people, this forum was a bit stagnant, we lost many good posters I would follow from years ago.
[quote]DrGMG wrote:
did u start with a higher number?[/quote]
A higher number of what?
If you’re referring to my cycles, I started at the lowest possible and built it up throughout the years.
[quote]CxTucker wrote:
So because you have a lot of experience B+C’ing, what are effective ways to go about bridging blasts? Is there a minimum downtime that you only want to run 1 compound? Example:
12 Weeks of Test (500mg/wk) + 4 Weeks of Dbol. Once that is over, I plan on cruising @ 250mg of test for an undetermined amount of time, and then introducing tren and mast. I’m just curious if there are effective ways to go about bridging, without knowing more specifics. [/quote]
Your example isn’t bad, I would add 250iu of HCG every 3rd day. I think if you’re only doing test and dbol you can extend the cycle…dbol to about 6-8 weeks and the test could be bumped up to about 16 weeks. 10mg of nolvadex each day wouldn’t hurt either.
The cruising at 250 is ok as well. Obviously when you add the tren and mast, keep the test running too.
[quote]MattyXL wrote:
This is Fucking fascinating. I think it would be even better if you were a twelve year old girl lol. Seriously though really informative[/quote]
Glad you’re enjoying it… Lots of new interesting info is on the way!
[quote]tazzx wrote:
I know every body has routines that work for them but in your personal belief, for someone natty who has been training a bit over a year do you believe the bro split is still idea routine you think or do you think the push pull split concept is better as hitting muscles twice a week is supposedly proven by science to be the most effective?
Also do you think squats are a must for a good lower body or do you think one could get away with doing leg press?
My end game goals are IFBB[/quote]
For a natural athlete, I don’t think that a regular bodybuilding split of training 1 body part each week is enough. Only after years and years of training will bring an athlete a point to be able to have enough intensity in their workout(weights and intensity) for this to be enough.
You mentioned that you only have 1 year of training under your belt, so you need a lot more frequency in your training. Stimulating the muscle at least twice a week would be a great idea. Push/pull/leg split would be a great place to start. Or train each body part twice a week… 1 time heavy and 1 time accessory work.(6days a week)
SQUATS YES!100%! Best leg builder, best for lower body strength, best for overall leg development… There is no replacement… You can do leg press in addition. Unless you have an injury that prevents you from this ability, then I suggest you squat.
[quote]Shadow Pro wrote:
[quote]lifter85 wrote:
This is a serious question I have so I hope it goes through. I have never taken anything more than a natural test booster like TRIBEX. I do not have any desire to take more than that, but I am honestly curious about this. For someone with rather shitty genetics when it comes to growth capabilities, do you think it is possible for someone who does not take anything other than say caffeine, fish oil, multi, and some creatine to attaina physique that looks like the person seriously lifts?
Personally I have been lifting consistently without taking more than prescribed days off and eaten big and well for 9 yrs now and one still wouldnt peg me as a lifter. At 5’9" 170 lbs I have a powerlifting total of 435/280/510 which I think is fairly strong, but every single time I go past 170 lbs it is entirely fat accumulation. I have worked up to 200 lbs before but just got very fat (38 inch waist). So I am honestly wondering if you believe it is possible for someone to look very big muscularly as an entirely natural person.[/quote]
First of all,congratulations on 9 years of training hard and eating clean. I think you can definitely look better if this is you in the avatar picture then I think you pretty good but still have potential to get bigger and look better without drugs.
When you say you want to look like someone who seriously lifts, you’d need to describe the look you are wanting to achieve. A lot of power lifters train extremely hard and intense but they would look like a regular guy on the street. If you want to look like a professional bodybuilder however then you wouldn’t be able to achieve that look without the steroids(just being honest) but if you take a look at the pro men’s physique this is definitely an attainable look…
At 5’9, you could easily be about 200-220lbs shredded. If you are only 170 I can assume that something in your training, diet and supplementation isn’t right. There are also a lot of great supplements on the market besides the TRIBEX (which is also good) that will help you progress, just off the top of my head Micro-PA has been getting great reviews for natural athletes.
[/quote]
Thank you, I appreciate the honest words and not just dismissing it because I asked about natural potential. I don’t want to be monster sized, I’d just like to be up to 190-200 lbs around 10% bodyfat. I am not sure I am willing to drop the type of money Micro-PA warrants, but I can’t imagine only not taking Micro-PA as being the factor holding me back from attaining that size. I suppose the only thing I can figure is i’ve been purely strength training for a long time, without doing any hypertrophy training.
[quote]thor159 wrote:
Hello, first of all, thanks for your time, patience and initiative on doing this.
You mentioned supplementation can be crucial and be a big plus to a diet. So what would you recommend using and/or staying away from in terms of fat burning supplements?
Yohimbine, caffeine, L-Carnitine/Acetyl L-Carnitine, Ephedrine, etc? Could you list as well the best time/way and dosages for whatever of these you recommend?[/quote]
Best fat burning supplements and how to take them:
ECA(ephedrine/caffeine/aspirin) great to use but only for a limited time(4-6weeks tops) body develops tolerance very fast. Dosage depends how sensitive you are to stimulants. Experiment starting with a very low dose.
Indigo-3G - selective nutrient uptake, aids the body to absorb carbs more efficiently (6 caps everyday 30 min prior to workout)
L-carnitine- it’s ok but not as strong or effective as some of your other choices. 1000mg twice a day would be a good dose. I believe this supplement is very overhyped.
HOT-ROX(contains yohimbe) best thermogenic due to the ingredients, take 2 twice/day(in AM and before cardio)
Clenbuterol(starting at .2mcg)and T3(12.5mcg)are your best choices for Rx drugs…It all depends on goals, current bodyfat and training etc
Heres another one.
You mentioned the active life of humalin-R vs humalog as I believe 8 hrs vs 3.
I feel as though I’ve read that those durations were nearly double of what actually occurs, presumably listed lengthier due to liability concerns and that its closer to 3 hours and 1.5 hours with a peak of 1 hour and 30 mins respectively. I feel as this may be more accurate at least towards humalin(novolin)-R that I’ve experienced.
I would prefer the shorter acting but the novolin is available without a perscription in my state, but if it is active for 8 hours I’m uncertain that it will fit my purposes. I tend to use pre-wo only, particularly during diets to keep from being flat. I havent nailed its usage while bulking, I don’t like the fat accumulation.
[quote]Shadow Pro wrote:
[quote]Raskens wrote:
Do you know how cycles differs for a powerlifter? How much does it affect your strength? Is the sideeffects overhyped? [/quote]
I think their cycles are a little safer, they don’t need to use insulin (very little if at all) and they don’t use diuretics or get to near death bodyfat percentages. They make use of the most basic compounds(orals and injectables) the most popular ones for strength gains would be: orals: halo, cheque drops, oral tren, dbol, Anadrol,tbol injectables: tren, test(some use test susp. Pre workout) GH in lower doses(4-6iu) All of these will significantly increase strength.
Bodybuilders use all of these (most likely with higher dosages) plus EVERYTHING ELSE! (Noted on page1)
The side effects are completely individual. People like myself can handle high dosage with minimal sides while other people can get horrible sides even from a low dose like 500mg/week. You’ll never know until you try and this is why I always recommend to start at a very low dosage. Side effects can be due to genetics, diet and cleanliness of products as well.
[/quote]
What about female powerlifters? Interested in your opinion of “safe” options to use for females. I’ve heard Var and Winny but would like to hear your opinion. Thank you!
[quote]Frank Sinatra wrote:
Thank you very much for your time and caring enough to start this dialogue.
A pardon to everyone for me being new here. Been a customer of T-Nation and reader for years. It is about time I posted.
I have read every single First Time Cycle post on this site. But your opinion matters and I greatly appreciate your time in advance.
39 years old. Genetically not gifted. I am mainly ecto with tiny bit of Meso. Thinner bone structure, (ankles, wrists) not pure Mesomorph by any stretch.
I am 181 pounds and right at 11% BF skinfold 15.3%(exascan) Highest BF I have bee in years due to eating so much with my new diet over past year and reducing cardio to bulk. Been training exclusively bodybuilding style 5 days per week for 2 years. Before that Olympic Lifts and general weightlifting for fitness for 12 years as a military Captain. My conditioning was insane, maintained 8% BF year-round for years. But my training was mainly catabolic obviously. Strict diet planned by a IFBB Pro Coach for past 12 months.
I have access to a top TRT doc in California. Arguably the guy to go to.
He wants me to start a basic protocol and monitor me to see how I react to sides and to the stuff. My test levels are normal. My general health is perfect so far thankfully. Cholesterol, thyroid, liver all perfect. No history of diabetes or cancer in family. He said he will make me 26 years old again in terms of hormone profile and then maintain and monitor me. Is this a waste of time? The smart way to do it? I HIGHLY doubt he will give me Tren, high doses of Test or many of the other compounds in your first cycle recommendation. Probably not GH either.
My goal is to be around 200 pounds at 10% year round and then for summers like every other fool cut down to 190. I have no desire to be bigger than that or be stage ready. Is this sustainable and doable through training alone at my age? I am VERY committed, eat very strict and train at a very high intensity and monitor rest religiously.
Or will it help to be on a lighter TRT protocol or another heavier cycle?
If you think another cycle cycle would help, what would you recommend for my case?
Really appreciate your guidance and opinion.
[/quote]
Great Post! Thank you for sharing all of your information with me, I’ll be happy to share my ideas with you.
First of all, the goals your mentioned are very achievable. Since you are strict on your diet and very experienced in your training then I see no issue in starting a small cycle to help you progress.
I don’t recall giving first cycle advise in any general statement(correct me if I’m wrong) I will only speak for myself and what I know that other pros are taking which is NOT recommend for other people. I like to give advise on a case to case basis because that’s the only way you get the right information.
To help you get your goals (without knowing your current diet, which could affect the cycle) I would try something like this:
GH 2-4iu/day (2iu in morning 45 min before breakfast, 2iu 20min before training session)
*at your age I think the GH can assist in recovery, fat burning and general health
Test-E (250mg/week) 12-16weeks
HCG 250iu every 3rd day
Mast-E 300mg/week 12-16weeks
The testosterone will help you gain mass, strength and help you in your training. The masteron will allow you to keep a “hard” look and it’s a mild anti-estrogen.
I would use the trt guy to moniter your blood tests and hormone profile. I am only going to assume that he will give you less than 250mg/week and in order for any physique improvement you will need a minimum of what I suggested… If he will give you this then by all means go for it! When someone has a perfect diet, training past and good health profile like yourself, I see no reason not to try a cycle like this… It will take you to your goal with ease. You’re 39 with 12 years of training under your belt I’d say you’ve earned your right to give it a shot.