Psychology of Racism

Chris_Aus · December 10, 2005, 11:22pm

[quote]LoneLobo wrote:
I grew up in a shitty little town on the coast, with a meth bust every weekend. We have 2 electives at that school, PE and weights. Our highest math course is Algebra 2. No honors anything, physics is only taught every 2 years. You wanna know how many black kids at that school? 2. It’s a bunch of poor (po’) white kids, and none of them are prepared for college at all.
[/quote]

i remember quite clearly where you said you were from on another forum…

84 000 isnt that little…

I just looked up the crime rates…

Violent Crime 12.4 vs national rate 13.9
Sexual offences 0.6 vs national rate 0.7
robbery 0.9 vs 1.8
burglary 33.3 vs 18.4
theft of MV 4.6 vs 6.4
theft from MV 13.9 vs 12.0

Doesnt seem too bad to me…

school stuff

2002 test scores were right on the state average for both highschools in the area that i looked up…

when subcategorized hispanics and native americans still outperformed by the white kids…
Grade 10
Math
35% (Total)
15% (Economically Disadvantaged)
28% (Female)
20% (Hispanic)
14% (Native American)
33% (Male)
32% (White)

Reading
47% (Total)
23% (Economically Disadvantaged)
54% (Female)
18% (Hispanic)
50% (Native American)
50% (Male)
53% (White)

%s are those meeting the reading and maths requirements…

LoneLobo · December 11, 2005, 1:00am

I’m not going to tell you where I lived, but suffice to know that it’s population is about half that of its zip code. I have no idea what town you quoted those numbers for? Salem, maybe? I moved to escape the crappy town I used to live in.

Chris_Aus · December 11, 2005, 2:51am

[quote]LoneLobo wrote:
I’m not going to tell you where I lived, but suffice to know that it’s population is about half that of its zip code. I have no idea what town you quoted those numbers for? Salem, maybe? I moved to escape the crappy town I used to live in.[/quote]

Lincoln City?
Its where you said you were living last year to Pat…

Fits the coastal town bit that you said too…

LoneLobo · December 11, 2005, 4:26am

Lincoln city as of right now has a population of 7400, and a median annual income of 24,000.

Chris_Aus · December 11, 2005, 8:42am

[quote]LoneLobo wrote:
Lincoln city as of right now has a population of 7400, and a median annual income of 24,000.[/quote]

my bad lincoln shire has the larger pop that i posted then?

ALDurr · December 12, 2005, 9:21am

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LoneLobo wrote:
That’s my point. It shouldn’t matter, but affirmative action makes it so it does. Selection should be race blind.

And so should education across the board and the hiring practices of the last 20-30 years. Since they were not, affirmative action was the answer. I am waiting for your list of alternatives that would have been better and more effective than AA.[/quote]

He doesn’t have a list and he never will have one. All he wants to do is rant and rave about how affirmative action is unfair, unnecessary and racist because he feels it doesn’t benefit him. In other words, the typical selfish mentality of youth.

ALDurr · December 12, 2005, 9:28am

[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
Also this intrigued me…
“Blacks are being given undue recognition. Affirmative action is bullshit, and it penalizes whites for the actions of their forefathers.” LoneLobo

So its okay for kids to benefit from the actions of their forefathers but its suddenly unfair if they are disadvantaged?.. If a kids great great great grandfather did something cool, like find an oil field, invent something, exploit african americans buy selling them off and make a ton of money, kill american indians steal their land and sell it for millions of dollars etc theres every chance they get the benefit of all the money, they buy their way into college etc, won’t have to work as hard or be as talented as other people trying for the same positions.

If their parents have friends in large firms they will get the positions etc etc etc.

If you are going to be mad at people getting some help go be mad at all the rich kids in the world that have everything come to them… that think they are owed something because their great great grandfather invented something, or their dad was an astute business man…
[/quote]

Come on LoneLobo, why don’t you address this topic in one of your rants? Or are you only mad at your fantasy of the millions and millions of blacks and other minorities that flooding the colleges and universities and the upper ranks of corporate america? Let’s hear your thoughts.

Lorisco · December 12, 2005, 5:02pm

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Since this thread is supposedly about psychology, it has been shown that Black students will underperform on tests if they are told they are a measure of intelligence (if they are not told this, they perform as well as white students; Spencer, Steele, & Quinn, 1999). This has been attributed to anxiety produced by societal expectations. This alone entirely justifies adding points to the test scores of Black students.
[/quote]

This is a illogical proposition. Societal expectations are the same for white, Asian, Latino, etc. You setting up an unrealistic environment for only black kids will not help them in the real world. In fact, it will ensure they are not fully prepared as others races and increase failure.

Instead of treating black kinds like they are so fragile and can’t make it in a real competitive environment, you should be asking why they get lower scores when the pressure is on? What makes other races not fold under those circumstances?

Answer these questions and you can truly help theses kids. Giving them extra points that they have not earned just ensures they will not be as qualified or prepared than other kids. Doing this disadvantages them in the real competitive world and ensures they will develop a entitlement attitude.

Well, I first would like to ask why you are assuming that black kids are the only ones who are poor? That is a racist stereotype my friend. You need to check yourself because your PC is showing. There are poor kids of all races. And I agree with helping low income kids of all races. But once you classify that help by race that meets the definition of racism (whether or not you believe it).

Next, you can’t level the playing field by tilting it to advantage some and disadvantage others. And again, by definition, AA is racist. That’s a fact whether you believe or accept it.

And the alternative solution is to find out why a group of kids scores lower than others and work to bring them up to speed. Lowering the standard or giving preference to a group of kids by race is not only racism, it is unfair to that group as well. It just ensure they are not as qualified as others.

Lorisco · December 12, 2005, 5:31pm

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
When is the last time YOU lost out on a job due to government sponsored racism? With proof, not just your word vs. the people who didn’t hire you! Unless the company that you or I applied to was very sloppy in hiding its racism, no one can prove it! This was just a bullshit attempt on your part to try to support a racist viewpoint that you believe in. Nice try!
[/quote]

So you are answering my question with a question. Boy, that is soo slick!

Sorry sport, but AA meets the criteria for racism, look it up.

As far as people not hiring me, I don’t know and don’t care. Since you appear to be clueless about AA. It required quotes. You know, it must hire a certain percentage of some minorities. Not all minorities, only some.

Also, requiring supposed racists companies to hire certain minorities doesn’t stop them from being racists. It just teaches everyone that it’s ok to favor on group purely by skin color as long as you have the political power to get it going. It is the same as requiring blacks to go to certain schools, etc… It’s the same. It just has another racial group on the outside. So you are trading on racists system for another. Just because it now favors a different group doesn’t make it less racist.

[quote]
He does not have a closer view of the issue because he’s a kid and hasn’t lived in the real world yet! He sounds more like someone parroting some asshole adult’s viewpoint. He has no experience to back up anything he is saying. Just because the kid is echoing your own racist viewpoints, doesn’t mean he is anymore right than you are. Besides, this didn’t have anything to do with you anyway, so why don’t you STFU and mind your own business![/quote]

Like picking on little kids do you Durr. Must make you feel like a big man.

Kids know and understand racism as they live it everyday at school. While that may not be the real world, it is still important as the experiences they have now will shape their views for the rest of their life.

Another advantage of high school age is that they don’t just fall in line to the PC mind numbing mentality where all rational thought is gone. They ask the hard questions. The questions like if AA gives a group of people an advantage purely because of race, why isn’t that racist? And anyone who actually thinks will tell you that it is racists and does meet the dictionary definition of racism.

You are just like those white guys that wanted all the black kids bused to only black schools. Only now, you would want all the white kids bused to only white schools because it’s a popular notion.

Preference based on race is ALWAYS RACISM regardless of the race!

LoneLobo · December 12, 2005, 10:10pm

[quote]ALDurr wrote:
Chris Aus wrote:
Also this intrigued me…
“Blacks are being given undue recognition. Affirmative action is bullshit, and it penalizes whites for the actions of their forefathers.” LoneLobo

So its okay for kids to benefit from the actions of their forefathers but its suddenly unfair if they are disadvantaged?..

If a kids great great great grandfather did something cool, like find an oil field, invent something, exploit african americans buy selling them off and make a ton of money, kill american indians steal their land and sell it for millions of dollars etc theres every chance they get the benefit of all the money, they buy their way into college etc, won’t have to work as hard or be as talented as other people trying for the same positions.

If their parents have friends in large firms they will get the positions etc etc etc.

If you are going to be mad at people getting some help go be mad at all the rich kids in the world that have everything come to them… that think they are owed something because their great great grandfather invented something, or their dad was an astute business man…

Come on LoneLobo, why don’t you address this topic in one of your rants? Or are you only mad at your fantasy of the millions and millions of blacks and other minorities that flooding the colleges and universities and the upper ranks of corporate america? Let’s hear your thoughts.[/quote]

Yes, it is unfair. That’s how the world works. Why don’t we give back North America to the natives? After all, it wasn’t fair for us to take the land from them. My forefathers earned their success in this world, and I should not be penalized for it. Don’t you see the exact converse of your argument is true?

What I’m saying is that it’s not fair to penalize ANYONE for the actions of those who went before them. That would include rich kids, poor kids, white kids, and black kids. Perhaps your mother never told you this, but the world is not an inherently fair place.

Your fate is what you make it. This gives you the right to argue for affirmative action (I’m assuming you’re a minority) and me the right to argue against it. Why? Because that’s our perogative, to look after ourselves.

That’s what the world is about, and that’s what makes it even. That’s why capitalism/free market works, because everyone looks out for their own self interests. Currently, you’re winning. Affirmative action is in place, and minorities are benefitting.

It’s my job, as one of those not being benefitted, to create advantages for myself in order to give myself the best possible chance. As such, I’m vehemently against anything that works to against me.

And before you distort my argument, fair does not necessarily supercede moral. I’m not a proponent of racism. I’m a proponent of everyone working together, if it leads to betterment. I’m certain that minorities have much to teach the majority culture, and that there are equal amounts blacks and whites of intelligence.

I am, however, all for leaving behind anyone that seeks to oppose my personal progress. Sounds shitty, but honestly, aren’t we all like that? Whether you’re working to improve society or to improve your town, you’re looking out for your own self-interests on some scale. I’m just looking out for mine, and as such, refuse to be punished or held back injustly.

Chris_Aus · December 12, 2005, 11:34pm

[quote]LoneLobo wrote:
Yes, it is unfair. That’s how the world works.[/quote]

hahahhaha

so maybe you should get over it then

dont you see the hypocricy of that statement… hahahahahha

but minorities are… thats why they are poorer dont live as long and have poorer education…

there you go again…
the world isnt fair so stop bitching about it

not a minority at all, im actually a rich white kid… well not a kid anymore but i was

if you think the world is even then you are very naive

its not a free market at all, lots of rules and regulation tarrifs etc lots of taxes and subsidies a true free market doesnt work

your not creating anything just bitching that a couple will miss out for the greater good of entire populations

no

FWIW, i dont think that AA is good either… but its a shitload better than nothing…

LoneLobo · December 13, 2005, 2:04am

[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
LoneLobo wrote:
Yes, it is unfair. That’s how the world works.

hahahhaha

so maybe you should get over it then

dont you see the hypocricy of that statement… hahahahahha

What I’m saying is that it’s not fair to penalize ANYONE for the actions of those who went before them.
but minorities are… thats why they are poorer dont live as long and have poorer education…

Perhaps your mother never told you this, but the world is not an inherently fair place.

there you go again…
the world isnt fair so stop bitching about it

Your fate is what you make it. This gives you the right to argue for affirmative action (I’m assuming you’re a minority) and me the right to argue against it. Why? Because that’s our perogative, to look after ourselves.

not a minority at all, im actually a rich white kid… well not a kid anymore but i was

That’s what the world is about, and that’s what makes it even.
if you think the world is even then you are very naive

That’s why capitalism/free market works, because everyone looks out for their own self interests. Currently, you’re winning. Affirmative action is in place, and minorities are benefitting.
its not a free market at all, lots of rules and regulation tarrifs etc lots of taxes and subsidies a true free market doesnt work

It’s my job, as one of those not being benefitted, to create advantages for myself in order to give myself the best possible chance. As such, I’m vehemently against anything that works to against me.
your not creating anything just bitching that a couple will miss out for the greater good of entire populations

Sounds shitty, but honestly, aren’t we all like that?
no

FWIW, i dont think that AA is good either… but its a shitload better than nothing…[/quote]

You’re an idiot. My post wasn’t even directed at you, it was at ALDurr. He appears to be capable of competent conversation.

You pointed out repeatedly the “hypocricy”[sic] of my statement that “the world isn’t fair, stop bitching”. Were you capable of reading, you would have noticed that I said that it’s the responsibility of those involved to make it unfair in their favor. Thus, I’m complaining in hopes of tilting things the other way, or at least making my opinion heard. Duh.

You threw in some miscellaneous nonsense about free markets… way to go, brainiac. You’re too cool. I don’t care, and it doesn’t significantly alter my point, it just makes you look petulant.

Next comment, you once again missed my point. I was stating that people don’t work for the good of the population, they work for their own good, which may incidentally benefit an entire population.

In summary, you made no points and missed mine. Attaboy, self declared rich white kid. Looks like most of the majority educations in this country are being taken up by those who don’t use them.

Xvim · December 13, 2005, 4:24am

This may have been missed, I read through most of this thread and aside from the rants there were some interesting points made but I didn’t see any mention of the advantages xenophobia presents to the species. Humans are social animals, we band together into families, tribes and eventually form civilizations based on comonality among members. There is a solid biological/evolutionary reason for people to fear the unknown and to band into homogenous groups, there is at the basest level, an instinctive urge to do this, for the sake of safety, reproduction and all of the other biological imperetives that drive most species.

One of the basest ways of differentiating ‘us’ from ‘them’ of course is visual, skin color. They look different than we do, they’re not like ‘us’ so they’re the enemy. This initial reaction should be easy to overcome and for a lot of people it is… ignorance and societal factors, all of the conditions and circumstances mentioned earlier in this thread, exacerbate the issue and can cause large swings in the prevalence or scarcity of racism but at it’s core, it’s a part of being human.

Xenophobia, fear of that which is not like us, fear or contempt, but basically there is a base urge to differentiate your group from other groups and to assume that you’re group is ‘better’ than others. Modern American society was founded almost exclusively by white land owning men. To be fair, we’ve tried to create as level a playing field as possible over the years but when you start from the basic premise that such a narrow group of individuals have almost complete control over everything, then slowly allow other ‘groups’ to trickle into positions of power and wealth you end up with this bizzare hodge podge of conflicting interests.

Chris_Aus · December 13, 2005, 10:50am

[quote]
You pointed out repeatedly the “hypocricy”[sic] of my statement that “the world isn’t fair, stop bitching”. Were you capable of reading, you would have noticed that I said that it’s the responsibility of those involved to make it unfair in their favor. Thus, I’m complaining in hopes of tilting things the other way, or at least making my opinion heard. Duh.[/quote]
all you did was take a giant step backwards and try to rationalise an argument for everyone involved by making arguments regarding population considerations into arguments of individual considerations…

You basiscally said “I think this because its best for me and other people think their way because its best for them. I think fuck them they think fuck me…”

When discussing stuff like this you really got to look for the greater good not just yourself - or atleast be able to recognise and argue that way… which is what you started doign before the big retreat…

Part of your argument responding to posts about entire populations being disadvantaged was - “Yes, it is unfair. That’s how the world works. Why don’t we give back North America to the natives? After all, it wasn’t fair for us to take the land from them.” which really seemed to triavilize it and i interpreted it as basically saying - life is unfair get over it… ie you dismissing their feelings and expecting us to give a shit about yours…

hahaha we are discussing issues as they affect society not just lonelobo… seriously, you can think that something is ethical/unethical (un)just good/bad for society or different populations as a seperate issue to how it affects you cant you? or are you incapable of that?

Picture yourself as an outsider looking in rather than someone who will be disadvantaged by it and try to seperate opinions of how it will affect you personally with how it will affect the population…

but the world isnt fair…

oh wait…

Your just not getting it… When the average black kid is brought up poorer, less educated, less healthy, going to die 6 years younger, more likely to go to jail,

THEY ARE BEING PENALIZED FOR THE ACTIONS OF WHAT WENT BEFORE THEM!!!

you made a statement, it was bullshit, i cleared it up… thats all it was…

Chris_Aus · December 13, 2005, 10:59am

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LoneLobo wrote:
That’s my point. It shouldn’t matter, but affirmative action makes it so it does. Selection should be race blind.

And so should education across the board and the hiring practices of the last 20-30 years. Since they were not, affirmative action was the answer. I am waiting for your list of alternatives that would have been better and more effective than AA.[/quote]

as far as better alternatives,

policies aimed at narrowing the gap would be more ‘fair’ than policies aimed at just plugging the holes…

seriously lonelobo has a point… while i think that there is definetly a greater good from AA hes still pointed out some good things…

improved schooling and aid for those in need would be a great start - hopefully that way you dont need to alter scores etc infact if that could be done there would be a direct flow on effect to everything else - wages health crime, longevity, quality of life everything…

Aleksandr · December 13, 2005, 4:39pm

[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LoneLobo wrote:
That’s my point. It shouldn’t matter, but affirmative action makes it so it does. Selection should be race blind.

And so should education across the board and the hiring practices of the last 20-30 years. Since they were not, affirmative action was the answer. I am waiting for your list of alternatives that would have been better and more effective than AA.

as far as better alternatives,

policies aimed at narrowing the gap would be more ‘fair’ than policies aimed at just plugging the holes…

seriously lonelobo has a point… while i think that there is definetly a greater good from AA hes still pointed out some good things…

improved schooling and aid for those in need would be a great start - hopefully that way you dont need to alter scores etc infact if that could be done there would be a direct flow on effect to everything else - wages health crime, longevity, quality of life everything… [/quote]

This one time, a bunch of black guys got together, and started feeding hungry school children in the morning, so they could focus better in class and what not…

ALDurr · December 13, 2005, 9:28pm

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
When is the last time YOU lost out on a job due to government sponsored racism? With proof, not just your word vs. the people who didn’t hire you! Unless the company that you or I applied to was very sloppy in hiding its racism, no one can prove it! This was just a bullshit attempt on your part to try to support a racist viewpoint that you believe in. Nice try!

So you are answering my question with a question. Boy, that is soo slick!
[/quote]

No, it was a ridiculous and pointless question and I treated it as such. If you had bothered to read further, you would have seen that in order to give you the answer you wanted, it required proof that I didn’t have. Now if you would have asked me if I FELT like I lost out on opportunities based on race, I could answer that question, but I still wouldn’t have any proof. In other words, it was assine to even ask the question.

Oh please! Flawed, yes I can agree with that. But trying to make it out to be racist, you going to have to do better than you feeling like it excludes you to prove that it is racist.

No, not only are you clueless about AA, but you are clueless about racism in general. Do you realize that this myth of a large percentage of White workers losing out if affirmative action is continued has been disproved before? Government statistics do not support this myth. According to the U.S. Commerce Department, there are 1.3 million unemployed Black civilians and 112 million employed White civilians (according to the U.S. Bureau of the Census, 2000). Thus, even if every unemployed Black worker in the United States were to displace a White worker, only 1% of Whites would be affected. And we know that this is NOT happening.

Furthermore, affirmative action pertains only to job-qualified applicants, not un-qualified applicants. So if this actually happend, the actual percentage of affected Whites would be a fraction of 1%. The main sources of job loss among White workers have more to do with factory relocations and labor contracting outside the United States, computerization and automation, and corporate downsizing. It is quite obvious that YOU aren’t very educated on AA.

See above response, and then come back when you have some actual facts and data to support your point. But since you can only piss and moan about the state of the “poor, downtroden white male” I won’t hold my breath waiting.

No, I like picking on people who like to rant but have no real facts to support their points. The fact that he is still a kid just made another point to show how a lack of maturity and wisdom created the original rants. He decided to step into an adult conversation and deliver his rant, so it made him fair game. However, I’ll pick on you as well because you fit the criteria. The only difference is that you are obviously older, which just makes you even more pathetic.

What? So I guess if you live in an all white area in the midwest and go to all white schools all of your life, you know about racism? Give me a break, your generalizing statement is as trite as you are.

Obviously you never went to high school or else you would see just how stupid these statements sound.

These last two statements are just another example of someone who wants to rant for rant sake. They make no sense but sound really good to the person writing them. Good luck in your reality.

ALDurr · December 13, 2005, 9:41pm

[quote]LoneLobo wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
Chris Aus wrote:
Also this intrigued me…
“Blacks are being given undue recognition. Affirmative action is bullshit, and it penalizes whites for the actions of their forefathers.” LoneLobo