No I am not the original quest. There is one unifying factor that 99% of you hold. You all have such a strong attachment to PROTEIN. I serious think its a slight subconscious phsycological addiction, in my opinion developed from companies who have something to gain from your protein intake, and influenced from pro bodybuilders before we started looking down on them. Most of you are so un willing to even take into account that your body may not need high amounts of protein to put on muscle, and that muscle has more to do with the body’s abilility process of getting stronger whether it be by more reps or weight. That my friends has to do with performance, which will come down to glycogen. Don’t take that as I am pro carb either I’m just saying when it comes to muscle its the process of time of getting stronger and the body’s ability to keep performance stable. Protein will not increase short term weight training performance. I really think you won’t see that much of a difference eating 130- 150 g when you weigh 180 and take in 250g. Why don’t you try and step outside of the box you have created with regards to protein intake. I think in the next years to come the studies will show that the body’s ability to upregulate protein efficiency, much in the same way the body can stretch glycogen reserves. Companies won’t want you to get at this research protein powders are a billion dollar industry. THINK ABOUT IT you SHEEP!
i have a book called power eating… and it suggest very high carb, and pretty low protien diets. But the writer as multiple degrees. I feel like if i ate how she says to, i would lose muscle and get fat.here are the protien guidlines.
maintenence- .64 grams per pound.Bulking .73.tapering .91 and cutting .91.
I’d agree that high protein may not be for everybody. Some people have better digestive systems and can grow great from less. John Berardi commented on this in an article where he stated he needed around 4000 calories to maintain and there was a BB that said maybe 2000 or something along those lines when asked how much protein. High protein may not be best for everyone, but it probably is for most people who train; and it is best for me. And on protein being over-rated, I’d have to agree; good fats are under-rated (gathered opinion from the majority of those that weight train).
Again, please provide some useful DATA on your position, rather than rambling anecdotal thoughts. I am an engineer, so I rely on analysis and proven experimental data in my work. For example, I don’t care if someone “thinks” a particular material can function at 900 F as well at it does at 200 F. I don’t care if someone “thinks” an aircraft structure will survive a 10G maneuver. I require analytical proof!
Not surprisingly, most successful lifters train the same way! Lifting takes a lot of time…it sucks to not get results, and it sucks more to get injured. As for data to support the current theories on protein intake, it’s relatively easy to determine anabolism vs. catabolism by measuring nitrogen levels. As for strength increases, I maintain a training log, and can document to my own satisfaction the value of good protein intake. As for the added cost, my only non-food protein intake is from a single scoop of Optimum Protein following each training session. The rest is from whole foods, such as skim milk, eggs, chicken, and beef.
As for your glycogen argument, the purpose of weight training is not simply to work out hard. The purpose is to gain strength and/or size, depending on the sport. It’s certainly nice to have plenty of glycogen to fuel a hard workout, but actual growth (growth occurs outside the gym!) is much more dependent on protein intake than on glycogen levels.
You are correct in that some future study may in fact demonstrate a lower protein requirement for hard lifters. However, I have seen no evidence that would indicate that this is likely. And you have provided no information to support such a position.
Go back to PETA, Quester; you are no lifter!
gw: You brought back memories of Jr.High! The strongest animal on the team was a guy who drank this concoction of mostly table sugar and milk (it sort of had the consistency of a thick slushy!) and he ate a loaf of bread a day. You’re right…at that age, you can get away with a lot!
q: I’m unclear exactly what the massage is (maybe you said it all when you said protein was “overated?”)
Anyway…my take is that protein intake should most likely be related (and subsequently adjusted) to your goals, activity, and lean body mass. Is it merely to avoid disease? (eg Kwoshiorkor)…then there is some minnmal intake. Is it to do more that “avoid disease” but to be healthy and “well-nourished”? Is it to build greater mass than the average?
My feeling is that it’s a continuum, requiring varying amts, depending again upon your goals, activity and lean body mass.
Mufasa
One thing the anti-protein crowd is forgetting: Yes, there are studies that show that athletes don’t need a ton of protein. BUT, are bodybuilders athletes? Not really. I think there is a difference between looking big and performing. And in that light, then yes, bodybuilders need a lot of protein, more than performance athletes. A gram per pound of bodyweight is a good start, more is need when on androgens (legal or otherwise). I know my progress improved when I started taking in more protein (1.5 instead of 1.0 per lb)
And just because people sell protein doesn’t mean there’s a conspiracy. T-mag, for example, has said a million times that supplements should come after diet and training. I’ve seen T-mag writers talk people out of buying supplements because they spotted flaws in other parts of their program. Protein is not a big profit item either, at least if it’s high quality. Tim Patterson has written about this.
I recall seeing some studies that show that strength athletes need no more than 1.5- 1.7 grams of protien per kilogram of bodyweight. Now Ill look for some and you live up to what you say and find me some definite data by the way of medical studies that proves that you need more than that. If not you are just using the anecdotal evidence that you claim to be worthless.
The following is copied and posted from the get big diet for bodybuilders by thomas incledon
Protein Needs for Guys Not on Drugs
Notice that this section specifies “guys not on drugs.” People make the mistake of following a diet that Mr. Famous Bodybuilder uses under the false assumption that it’ll work for them, as well. A guy who isn’t taking steroids, growth hormone, or whatever other growth-promoting agent that’s hot this week has very different protein needs than the same guy taking all of these agents. They are totally different situations and must be addressed separately.
Research studies on male subjects who lifted weights and didn’t take any drugs clearly showed that men need more than the RDA of 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight (0.8 g/kg).(1,2) In one study using novice bodybuilders, 1.35 g/kg (or 0.61 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight) was just as good as 2.62 g/kg.(1) In another study, it was found that strength-trained men need more protein than their sedentary counterparts.(2) These particular researchers recommended 1.76 g/kg per day (0.8 g/pound per day) for strength-trained men.
Still, using our 200-pound guy for an example, strict use of the research means that he should take in 160 grams of protein per day. Some guys may decide that they want to take more protein because they don’t want to bother with the math and will use one gram of protein per pound. I don’t see a problem with this, other than the fact that it’s not necessary.
Some people will assert that an excess of this magnitude will damage the kidneys of healthy humans, but there isn’t much evidence to support this. In fact, research on obese people indicates that protein intake can alter kidney size but doesn’t adversely affect kidney function.(3) This study, however, only investigated intakes up to 108 grams per day. It would be nice to see research done on renal function at protein intakes closer to what people are actually eating.
Here are the references listed
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Lemon, P.W., et al., Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders. J Appl Physiol, 1992. 73(2): p. 767-775.
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Tarnopolsky, M.A., et al., Evaluation of protein requirements for trained strength athletes. J Appl Physiol, 1992. 73(5): p. 1986-1995.
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Skov, A.R., et al., Changes in renal function during weight loss induced by high vs low- protein low-fat diets in overweight subjects. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord, 1999. 23(11): p. 1170-1177.
And this is what T-mag said about this diet in the diet manifesto
The Get Big Diet
Synopsis: As the name implies, this is another diet designed to help you gain muscular weight. Tom Incledon covers the basics, from figuring out your caloric needs (this is where most skinny guys screw up) to laying out several sample meals for you.
Reader Feedback: Chalk another one up in the “win” category. Followed correctly and consistently, this program can help you put on muscle without getting too fat in the process.
Conclusion: So-called “hardgainers” are usually people who don’t know how to eat. The Get Big Diet shows you how. 'Nuff said. If you want to give it a go, check it out here.
Int J Sport Nutr 1991 Jun;1(2):127-45 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Protein and amino acid needs of the strength athlete.
Lemon PW.
Applied Physiology Research Laboratory, Kent State University, OH 44242.
The debate regarding optimal protein/amino acid needs of strength athletes is an old one. Recent evidence indicates that actual requirements are higher than those of more sedentary individuals, although this is not widely recognized. Some data even suggest that high protein/amino acid diets can enhance the development of muscle mass and strength when combined with heavy resistance exercise training. Novices may have higher needs than experienced strength athletes, and substantial interindividual variability exists. Perhaps the most important single factor determining absolute protein/amino acid need is the adequacy of energy intake. Present data indicate that strength athletes should consume approximately 12-15% of their daily total energy intake as protein, or about 1.5-2.0 g protein/kg.d-1 (approximately 188-250% of the U.S. recommended dietary allowance). Although routinely consumed by many strength athletes, higher protein intakes have not been shown to be consistently effective and may even be associated with some health risks.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial
PMID: 1844991 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Clin Sports Med 1984 Jul;3(3):595-604 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Protein nutrition for the athlete.
Dohm GL.
Endurance exercise results in a protein catabolic state characterized by decreased protein synthesis, increased amino acid oxidation, and increased conversion of amino acids to glucose. The adaptive response to performance of strength exercise, on the other hand, results in an anabolic state in hypertrophying muscles, and the accretion of protein is the result of increased protein synthesis. Because of changes in protein metabolism there is an increased dietary requirement for protein in both endurance and strength exercise. However, the normal dietary intake of protein is adequate for athletes as long as the energy intake is sufficient to maintain body weight. There is little scientific evidence that consumption of large protein supplements will have any beneficial effect on muscle hypertrophy, muscular strength, or physical performance.
PMID: 6571233 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Tom Incledon, a respected T-Mag writer and nutritionist, not to mention a “natural” strongman, states in his “Get Big” diet that a drug-free 200 lb. bodybuilder looking to gain muscle only needs 160 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, and anything more than that is really not necessary. I tend to agree with this, as I think drug-free individuals consuming 300 and 400 grams of protein per day are over-doing it.
It’s amazing how people can get so mad over someone stating “excessive” protien intake is bad. Optimal protien intake going on what Thomas Incledon said is far less than a gram per pound of body weight. (and he is quoting studies) Therefore a gram per pound of body weight is more than enough. Using more to me seems pointless. One: cost. Two: intestinal…trouble. Three: The amino acid methonine(spelling) is known to cause high levels of homeocystin(spelling) which is a cardiac risk. I think even Peter Lemon the “protien guru” says 1 gram per pound is acceptable. Although he could be “swayed” by supplement companies. Another thing to consider protien is routinely coverted into carbs/glycogen in the body. This would suggest carbs not protien is in shortage to me. Also carbs are “protien spareing” as Duchaine put it.
I think it’s just like if 10 years ago you said…“hey fat is good for you” you would most likely walk away with a punch in the balls. Quest is being killed for having an open mind. Way to go Quest for not being afraid of getting flamed to bring the t-mag forum a great topic. It’s incredible how people on here think they are intelligent by saying “this thread it stupid” or “your an idiot for saying that” Fine disagree but don’t be a dick about it. Ciao. 
I recently dropped my protein intake from 350 down to 250 (at a bodyweight of 188) in the last 3 months and have had nothing but good come from it. On off days I consume even less protein and just concentrate on eating healthy. I’m still making gains and have even improved my bodyfat level( a visual estimation only, but since I don’t diet I can tell quite easily when it drops). Not to mention the fact that its nice to know it won’t take 15 minutes for me to shit(that can’t be good). My stomach feels better, I have more room for fruit and veggies so I’m quite happy. I think Quester has a valid point.
I don’t think protein is overrated. I eat about 200 grams a day. That’s reasonable for a 200 lb. guy. I think the general public under rates the value of protein and some athletes over consume it. 300+ grams a day is more than a bit much unless you’re huge and on gear. The good thing about eating too much protein, and I mean a little too much, not a boatload, is that it helps make you feel full and if you’re low carbing it can be converted to carbs by an inefficient body process. That way you’re slightly less likely to get porky by over eating a few grams of protein vs. a few grams of carbs. Clarence Bass doesn’t eat much protein, he’s damn neared a vegan if I remember right. He’s also pretty stringy looking, ripped but not overly muscular looking really. I guess if you like that plucked but tanned chicken look you can reduce your protein way low too. I’ll stick to the 200 grams a day. It doesn’t cost that much, especially if you use protein powders to make up the difference.
Your within the 1 gram per pound of body weight. I’m thinking you could reduce your intake slighty and not be adversly affected. It’s worth an experiment. You however are not eating a truely exessive amount. A bit more than “may” be needed as you stated in your post. I must agree with you that the general public underates protien. Question; what type of results did you notice on lower protien intakes when you still had acceptable overall calories? Thanks Steel.
I terribly mis-stated my point, that was 160 grams of protein per day, not per lb. of bodyweight, which I’m sure most people probably picked up on
My goof. Sorry. But the “Get Big” diet is a good one and the only one I’d use for bulking, although even I’ve been duped somewhat into the “more is better” protein philosophy for non-drug lifters, and would probably up my protein intake to about 200 grams/day on “Get Big”.
Man your off your rocker hombre. Take your opinions somewhere else, go nag somewhere else ( like the PETA or vegan-for America forum) this is t-mag. And
my ignorant borderline bohemian-“protein isn’t important” friend nag somewhere else. CUZ protein does matter big time!!!
I did the lower fat, more carb type thing for a while. Some of my protein and fat was taken over by carbs. It made me put on fat and I made no gains in muscle. I’m a hard gainer anyway. If I get enough protein I can gain muscle, if I add too many carbs I gain fat. If the carbs are in addition to enough protein I gain both but still more fat than muscle. It’s a balancing act for sure. I’ll never be huge. I’ll settle for pretty big and pretty lean. I’m not giving up drinking a few beers just to impress chicks my wife won’t let me fuck anyway.
Just posting my experience, take from it what you will…
When I was 17-20 I was 200 pounds. Lifted hard everyday(Actually during the week often 2 times a day) Didn't know exactly what I was doing, but I had the right idea, I always squat and bench. My diet was crap, I'd eat some donuts, a muffin and a hamburger a day shared with about 4 liters of soda. Yeah, not great I know...
From 20-21 I thought I wanted to lose weight. So my diet consisted of all carbs and some protein(140g of protein). My weight didn't change from 200, and I made almost no gains. So for about 4 years my body didn't change.
Then I found T-mag tried the Massive Eating diet... upped my protein intake to about 250g a day. And I blew up, I added 30 pounds in a matter of 3 months and everyone started asking if I was on roids. Damn that felt good, and if it wasn't for the protein it wouldn't have happened.
I don’t know about taking in so much protein if you’re drug-free. By so much I mean someone weighing say a buck-eighty taking in 300-400 grams per day. Way too much in my opinion. Also, in terms of carbs, what type of carbs are we talking about? Good carbs like whole oatmeal, brown rice, lots of fruits and vegetables, whole-grain breads, etc., or sugar-filled carbs like doughnuts, candy, cake, cookies, etc? For instance, you could give a 180 lb. man 150 grams of protein a day and fill the rest of his daily diet with good, wholesome carbs, and his body composition would be dramatically better than the same person taking in 250 grams of protein but eating junky, sugary carbs. Just my opinion. Personally, I like to stay around a gram per lb. bodyweight.