Because if we’re to say the “laws that govern” the universe, it suggests that they are not part of the universe. That they are not in turn governed by the ‘rest’ of the universe.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I imagine that if I were to ask why it–the universe–changes states, the answer might be something like “because the universe possibly causes itself to change states.”
[/quote]
I suppose. (Actually, all I can do is suppose here: For me to claim to “know” any of this would be, obviously, stupid.)
That would be the answer for God, correct? When God “does” something in the Bible, He is both the cause and the instrument of the doing?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I think I tried to ask Pat that a while back but he never answered. I wanted to know how to evaluate “X cannot be caused by nothing” as true or false.
[/quote]
Nothing doesn’t exist. The very discussion of ‘it’ is paradoxical.
[/quote]
Okay maybe we are getting somewhere now.
- If its paradoxical, why is it even a premise? Is that even allowed?
[/quote]
It does not need to be, save for the fact that there are those who think it’s possible.
It’s not reasonable to ask what caused something uncaused, so it is eliminated by definition. An uncaused entity is not caused by an infinite amount of things, let alone itself.
X being a caused entity, cannot have caused itself because it’s circular. It begs the question and is therefore false.[/quote]
So is this statement true or false?
“An elementary particle cannot be caused by itself”[/quote]
That is true. It’s a finite and as Kamui puts it, non-essential thing that could not exist if our perception and understanding is incorrect.[/quote]
Why is it true? I’m not sure where he said anything like this without there being a catch.[/quote]
It’s true because it’s logically impossible for it to have caused itself.
[/quote]
Why is it uncaused though? That needs to come before what you just said above.
[/quote]
Said elementary particle is not uncaused. It’s a caused entity. Without being acted on either by an intrinsic law by which its compulsed or by something external it’s existence is caused.
Or are you asking why the Uncaused-cause is uncaused? In which case the question cannot be asked, because why begets causation. But I don’t want to delve too until deeply I understand what you are asking better. Are you asking about the uncausedness of a singularity or the Uncaused-cause?
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
[quote]AceRock wrote:
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
[quote]AceRock wrote:
You guys have WAAAAAYYYYY more patience with this than I ever will. I read the first couple pages, skipped to the end, and can’t imagine the ridiculousness contained therein.
Don’t feed the trolls.[/quote]
This is uncalled for. Just because someone has taken a stand that is contradictory does not make them a troll. This forum could use more civil discussions like this.
[/quote]
I’m not allowed to commend posters for their patience? I don’t see how a compliment is uncalled for. I also noticed none of them took offense to the joke either. If one of them feels hurt by my comment, I will apologize to them.[/quote]
The problem is not with you commending posters for their patience, but with calling Pat a troll which was indeed uncalled for. If he was a troll, we all would have simply ignored him like we with conservativedog or pittbull when they tried to join in rather than engage him in a debate. He is very invested in this argument and with insisting that it is a proof when it is not, but rather an argument but that does not make him a troll. [/quote]
Jokes. Seriously, people. I can’t tell if Pat’s a troll or not. If he is, he’s fucking winning. If he’s not, again, I commend everyone with their patience.
FOR THE RECORD: I AM SORRY, PAT. I HOPE TO GOD/UNCAUSED YOU’RE NOT A TROLL.
[quote]kamui wrote:
For all we know, every event since the initial singularity could be a huge cosmic conspiracy to make Justin Bieber exist. [/quote]
Despite the prose style, a great short story. Somewhat relevant to the notion of Mr. Bieber as the goal of all existence.
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Why would the singularity change?[/quote]
If the singularity is understood to simply be a state of the universe, it is not the singularity that changes so much as it is the universe.[/quote]
Ok, so we’re not talking about a singularity as a cause of the universe. The whole time we’re talking about the universe. Just in singularity, non-singularity (I’d say pre- or post-, but that might not make any sense) state. I imagine that if I were to ask why it–the universe–changes states, the answer might be something like “because the universe possibly causes itself to change states.”
[/quote]
Or it’s built into the “laws” that govern the universe[/quote]
This one.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
That would be the answer for God, correct? When God “does” something in the Bible, He is both the cause and the instrument of the doing?[/quote]
Correct! I’m not searching for anyone to say “I know” if they don’t. I’m content with people at least entertaining the possibility of eternal uncaused cause. Not immediately rejecting it as irrational.
Now, back to the particular view being expressed as a possibility. Does this mean I am un-caused? If we’re encompassing everything else as part of the part of the universe, why not me?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Now, back to the particular view being expressed as a possibility. Does this mean I am un-caused? If we’re encompassing everything else as part of the part of the universe, why not me?[/quote]
My first intuition would be that you would be one of the “changes” that we’re referring to, both caused and carried out by the universe, of which you are a part.
Or are you necessary, a la determinism, and thus non-contingent?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Why would the singularity change?[/quote]
If the singularity is understood to simply be a state of the universe, it is not the singularity that changes so much as it is the universe.[/quote]
Ok, so we’re not talking about a singularity as a cause of the universe. The whole time we’re talking about the universe. Just in singularity, non-singularity (I’d say pre- or post-, but that might not make any sense) state. I imagine that if I were to ask why it–the universe–changes states, the answer might be something like “because the universe possibly causes itself to change states.”
[/quote]
It could be in the nature of the singularity to change states, or it can be acted on to change states. Problem is, nobody really knows what a singularity is, or if its even real. It is of course theoretically possible, even thought to be at the center of black holes in some circles.
Matter breaks down to energy. And energy breaks down to what? The latest terminology has called it information.
This idea of information is something I am really interested in, for many reasons.
If the singularity is information, that begets energy, that begets matter, then all is reducible then to information. Not as an explanation of the universe, but the actual foundation on which it is built.
I would like to know where science is on that, which Dr. Matt will know and will hopefully share with us, not in Norsk.
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I imagine that if I were to ask why it–the universe–changes states, the answer might be something like “because the universe possibly causes itself to change states.”
[/quote]
I suppose. (Actually, all I can do is suppose here: For me to claim to “know” any of this would be, obviously, stupid.)
That would be the answer for God, correct? When God “does” something in the Bible, He is both the cause and the instrument of the doing?[/quote]
I don’t think God is necessarily the answer here. Actually I don’t think He is the answer to this. That posits a ‘God of Gaps’ theory, which for cosmology to be true, the God of the gaps must be untrue.
It’s not that I don’t believe God is the initial causer. It’s that I don’t necessarily believe that a singularity or the laws that guide it are necessarily the first thing that was caused.
Causation is the reason for the changing states, at what point of the causal chain that is, I don’t know.
When God causes something in the bible, he skips over the causal chain and is the direct cause of the action superseding natural law, which we term a miracle.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
That would be the answer for God, correct? When God “does” something in the Bible, He is both the cause and the instrument of the doing?[/quote]
Correct! I’m not searching for anyone to say “I know” if they don’t. I’m content with people at least entertaining the possibility of eternal uncaused cause. Not immediately rejecting it as irrational.
Now, back to the particular view being expressed as a possibility. Does this mean I am un-caused? If we’re encompassing everything else as part of the part of the universe, why not me?[/quote]
If you exist for no reason and never came into being but always was then sure.
[quote]pat wrote:
When God causes something in the bible, he skips over the causal chain and is the direct cause of the action superseding natural law, which we term a miracle.
[/quote]
That is fine, but then there has to be a reason the God of the Bible can do this and nothing else can.
Also, it appears to me that God is not entirely outside of the causal chain, especially within the context of scripture. Sodomites sin, God destroys Sodom. Onan pulls out, God kills Onan.
Were not the sins of the Sodomites and the sin of Onan the causes of God’s wrath? Was His wrath not contingent?
[quote]pat wrote:
Without being acted on either by an intrinsic law by which its compulsed or by something external it’s existence is caused.
[/quote]
I am not sure I understand this part. I am just talking about an elementary particle. If there was a singularity it would have been part of that but not the entire thing. The singularity is not a proven thing so I am not sure it makes sense to bring it up for a proof.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I imagine that if I were to ask why it–the universe–changes states, the answer might be something like “because the universe possibly causes itself to change states.”
[/quote]
I suppose. (Actually, all I can do is suppose here: For me to claim to “know” any of this would be, obviously, stupid.)
That would be the answer for God, correct? When God “does” something in the Bible, He is both the cause and the instrument of the doing?[/quote]
I don’t think God is necessarily the answer here. Actually I don’t think He is the answer to this. That posits a ‘God of Gaps’ theory, which for cosmology to be true, the God of the gaps must be untrue.
It’s not that I don’t believe God is the initial causer. It’s that I don’t necessarily believe that a singularity or the laws that guide it are necessarily the first thing that was caused.
Causation is the reason for the changing states, at what point of the causal chain that is, I don’t know.
When God causes something in the bible, he skips over the causal chain and is the direct cause of the action superseding natural law, which we term a miracle.
[/quote]
By the way, I think you misread my post. I wasn’t saying that God was the answer, I was saying that would be the same kind of answer for God. That is, just as God is alleged to cause Himself to change states, so would the universe, in this view, cause itself to change states.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
That would be the answer for God, correct? When God “does” something in the Bible, He is both the cause and the instrument of the doing?[/quote]
Correct! I’m not searching for anyone to say “I know” if they don’t. I’m content with people at least entertaining the possibility of eternal uncaused cause. Not immediately rejecting it as irrational.
Now, back to the particular view being expressed as a possibility. Does this mean I am un-caused? If we’re encompassing everything else as part of the part of the universe, why not me?[/quote]
If you exist for no reason and never came into being but always was then sure.[/quote]
Well, I was speaking with a particular argument in mind. If the universe is uncaused because everything is the universe (like laws and singularity), and I’m part of the universe…
I mean, if the universe is uncaused by the singularity because the singularity is simply a state of the universe…
And the laws/mechanics didn’t/don’t cause the universe, because they too will be considered as part of the universe…
Then why should I be considered caused? Why shouldn’t I be considered some micro-state of the universe, since I’m merely part of the universe?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
That would be the answer for God, correct? When God “does” something in the Bible, He is both the cause and the instrument of the doing?[/quote]
Correct! I’m not searching for anyone to say “I know” if they don’t. I’m content with people at least entertaining the possibility of eternal uncaused cause. Not immediately rejecting it as irrational.
Now, back to the particular view being expressed as a possibility. Does this mean I am un-caused? If we’re encompassing everything else as part of the part of the universe, why not me?[/quote]
If you exist for no reason and never came into being but always was then sure.[/quote]
Well, I was speaking with a particular argument in mind. If the universe is uncaused because everything is the universe (like laws and singularity), and I’m part of the universe…
I mean, if the universe is uncaused by the singularity because the singularity is simply a state of the universe…
And the laws/mechanics didn’t/don’t cause the universe, because they too will be considered as part of the universe…
Then why should I be considered caused? Why shouldn’t I be considered some micro-state of the universe, since I’m merely part of the universe?
[/quote]
I follow your reasoning. But are we to ignore observable reality? Your parents conceived and birthed you. That seems like a cause to me. Perhaps that’s too simple for this discussion, but I can’t help it.
[quote]AceRock wrote:
I follow your reasoning. But are we to ignore observable reality? Your parents conceived and birthed you. That seems like a cause to me. Perhaps that’s too simple for this discussion, but I can’t help it.[/quote]
They changed the universe into this state. They are part of the universe, governed by the laws of the universe, acting on parts of the universe, to change states.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]AceRock wrote:
I follow your reasoning. But are we to ignore observable reality? Your parents conceived and birthed you. That seems like a cause to me. Perhaps that’s too simple for this discussion, but I can’t help it.[/quote]
They changed the universe into this state. They are part of the universe, governed by the laws of the universe, acting on parts of the universe, to change states.
[/quote]
I saw in another thread that you’re taking a German course. What are you studying if you don’t mind my asking?
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]AceRock wrote:
I follow your reasoning. But are we to ignore observable reality? Your parents conceived and birthed you. That seems like a cause to me. Perhaps that’s too simple for this discussion, but I can’t help it.[/quote]
They changed the universe into this state. They are part of the universe, governed by the laws of the universe, acting on parts of the universe, to change states.
[/quote]
I saw in another thread that you’re taking a German course. What are you studying if you don’t mind my asking?[/quote]
Heh, undecided science major with pre-med requirements nearly satisfied. Of course, I’ve now come to the realization that the medical field might not agree with me. At 38 I’m already a bit long in the tooth for a student. Now add in Med school and residency. Furthermore, I’m not confident about how much room there will be for a devout Catholic who can’t sacrifice his moral conscience. After all, this is now a nation where an order of nuns must go to court (it should have never gone so far) over a contraception coverage mandate. I have little confidence for the future.
By the end of this semester I will have to have reached a decision in order to really begin knocking off major requirements. Hey, as much as I’m digging german (needed to take a foreign language) I could see myself electing for something that would transfer cleanly to, and is in demand in, Germany.
That or I’ll go to Seminary.
Edit: And, when my grandfather died a few years ago, my grandmother moved from their home to live down here with me. She can’t drive, and has some medical issues, so it’s my duty to see to her. This obviously limits me to some degree in my decisions.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]AceRock wrote:
I follow your reasoning. But are we to ignore observable reality? Your parents conceived and birthed you. That seems like a cause to me. Perhaps that’s too simple for this discussion, but I can’t help it.[/quote]
They changed the universe into this state. They are part of the universe, governed by the laws of the universe, acting on parts of the universe, to change states.
[/quote]
I get that, but those sound like causes to me. Just one in the long chain. Not fighting the “infinite cause” argument, honestly, but I can’t get over the direct link of cause (parents) and effect (you). Am I missing something?