Program Questions

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Disclaimer: I’m still a novice lifter. I also lift at home, so I only have free weights.

Apology: Wall of text. I’m trying with spacing and paragraphing, but I have a bit to write.

Ok, so like many people, I think, I started with Starting Strength. While I made progress (minus the occasional challenges with squats stalling), I found I wasn’t satisfied with just strength increases, I want to put some mass on too. So I switched up my exercise into a 4 day split: chest, back, legs and shoulders. Arms I mix in with the splits.

I’m going to lay it out, but I could use some advice on sets and numbers of reps. As a side note, if I don’t make it (for example fail on 5th rep of third set in a 3 x 5, I will add in another set just 'cause)

Monday: barbell bench 3 x 5, incline bench 3 x 8, pushups to failure, dumbbell flies 3 x 8 - 10 (do a weight at 3 x 8, next time 3 x 9, next time 3 x 10, then increase weight and drop to 3 x 8), and barbell curls 3 x 8

Tuesday: deadlift 1 x 5, pullups to failure, bent over barbell row 3 x 8, skull crushers/ng bench supersetted (where I do one skull crusher, one ng bench, rinse and repeat) 3 x 8 (or is it 16?)

Thursday: squats 3 x 5, bench press 3 x 5 (added because I feel chest was lagging after starting strength), lunges 3 x 10, RDL 3 x 8, hammer curls 3 x 8 - 10

Friday: shoulder press 3 x 5, bent over barbell row 3 x 8 (added because I feel that back was lagging after starting strength), db shrugs 3 x 8, lat raises 3 x 8 - 10, reverse flyes 3 x 8 - 10, dips

Ok, so now that you’ve (hopefully) bravely made it through that, here are my questions.

  1. On the supersetted skull crushers/ng bench, I’m doing 8 of each movement. Is this 16 and thus too much for hypertrophy? What is an ideal range?

  2. Caveat. Does the idea of SC/NG bench supersets not make sense? I found it on google :slight_smile: Is there something else to do instead that is better for combination strength and size? I mean, I’m doing dips on my other tricep day.

  3. Is the workload too much? I’m keeping each session under 60 minutes - the “primary” exercise I do for strength with 4 minute pauses between sets, but the rest have 90 second pauses so speed up.

  4. I figure that barbell curls once a week + hammer curls once a week should be sufficient bicep devel for me, as I, for whatever reason, grow biceps easily. I like the hammer curls because they also work the forearms, and who doesn’t want Popeye forearms? But if there is another recommendation, I’ll take it.

  5. Is the twice a week bench and bent over barbell rows too much? I’m still making steady (if slow) gains, and I feel like chest and back are lagging.

Thanks in advance!

–Me

EDIT2: I edited the title because I realized that my questions were no longer solely about arms, but about the program in general.

2

[quote]kravi wrote:
Ok, so like many people, I think, I started with Starting Strength. While I made progress (minus the occasional challenges with squats stalling), I found I wasn’t satisfied with just strength increases, I want to put some mass on too.[/quote]
No problem. Things change. How long did you do the “textbook” Starting Strength program?

What kind of progress did you see and what are your current bests in the squat, deadlift, bench, overhead press, and clean?

What’s your current height, weight, and general fat level (pudgy, average, kinda-lean, ripped, skinny, etc.)?

The split you laid out below isn’t “chest, back, legs and shoulders. Arms I mix in…” It’s chest/bis, back/tris, legs/chest/bis, shoulders/back/tris. A pretty random mish-mash. You’d get further, faster if you chose a better designed program.

If you’re doing a superset, it’s (in this case) 8 reps of the first exercise followed by 8 reps of the next. That definitely doesn’t “count” as one set of 16 reps, the same way that 3 sets of 8 doesn’t “count” the same as one set of 24 reps. Also, there is no ideal rep range, everything works.

Resting a solid 4 minutes between heavy sets of 5 is definitely on the high end. If it’s going well for you, that’s one thing. But I’m almost positive you could significantly shave that down a bit and still get some solid strength work done.

[quote]2. Caveat. Does the idea of SC/NG bench supersets not make sense? I found it on google :slight_smile: Is there something else to do instead that is better for combination strength and size? I mean, I’m doing dips on my other tricep day.
…
4. I figure that barbell curls once a week + hammer curls once a week should be sufficient bicep devel for me, as I, for whatever reason, grow biceps easily. I like the hammer curls because they also work the forearms, and who doesn’t want Popeye forearms? But if there is another recommendation, I’ll take it.

  1. Is the twice a week bench and bent over barbell rows too much? I’m still making steady (if slow) gains, and I feel like chest and back are lagging.[/quote]
    That particular triceps superset is fine enough, and it’s okay to "prioritize muscles by working them more than once a week, but again, I think you’d do better with a different total plan, instead of hitting things a little here and a little there.

Any of these programs would be different enough from Starting Strength to prompt new progress in strength and size, as long as your nutrition is spot-on:

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/the_regular_guy_offseason_strength_program

Even if some of them actually don’t target your “priority” muscles twice a week, they’re providing plenty of training stimulus when they do get worked.

Also note that since you’re training in a home gym, you can obviously sub in any appropriately-similar exercises when necessary. Any questions about particular alternatives, fire away.

3

You’re the man Chris…

4

Hey man higher reps is better for visible hypertrophic gains .

You could try either 4 x 6-8, 3 x 8 for core lifts and 3 x 10 for iso like b’bell curls etc.

I did starting strength and did get much stronger and seem to have kept a lot of the strenght gains years on.

But I find higher reps better for hypertrophy.

"When training for strength: Use 3-5 reps, with a long rest period involved maybe anywhere from 2-3 minutes.

For a normal hypertrophy (muscle growth) routine: Use 8-10 reps with a shorter rest period of around 45-60 seconds.

For endurance: Use higher reps of say 12 and up, rest for a period of no less then 30 seconds. "

Google set and rep ranges and literally all the major websites will repeat the above. I have never traine dfor more than 8 motnhs consistantly but mase the best gains on 3 x 10 (was in my twenties) and am now doing pretty well with 4 x 6-8. $ x 8 is a lot of vollume though so if you try it be careful with exercise sellection.

5

From De Franco - “I like to get into some high-volume work for the guys so they can build some muscle,” says DeFranco.

While he usually recommends between six and twelve reps, he sometimes gets into the very high-rep sets. “I like to bump it up to 20 or 25 reps every now and then,” he says.

6

Many thanks Chris, for your feedback. I know the program seems odd. It is really a 4 day split gone horribly wrong :slight_smile:

I started with just chest, back, legs and shoulders. But I decided from a strength point of view that my chest and back were lagging (compared to legs and shoulders), so I added an extra bench to leg day, and an extra dumbbell row (not barbell) to shoulder day. I know, weird, but I just, as I can recover from this, wanted to try to boost chest and back a bit more for as long as I can.

As for the arms, I find it easier to do curls when I’m training chest, and tris when I’m training back. They are, for obvious reasons, fresher, so I can do the exercises with higher weights. But maybe I should go back to conventional, and do curls on back day, and tris on bench day. But for now, as I’m a novice, I don’t feel like they are being over worked.

But I’ll take a good long look at the programs you recommended. Big but boring and washed up meatheads look the most interesting to me right now :slight_smile:

–Adam

EDIT: I don’t want to sound defensive, or like I was arguing. I was just trying to explain my thought process as to why I got such a, uhm, strange plan.

7

[quote]leon36 wrote:
Hey man higher reps is better for visible hypertrophic gains .

You could try either 4 x 6-8, 3 x 8 for core lifts and 3 x 10 for iso like b’bell curls etc.

I did starting strength and did get much stronger and seem to have kept a lot of the strenght gains years on.

But I find higher reps better for hypertrophy.

"When training for strength: Use 3-5 reps, with a long rest period involved maybe anywhere from 2-3 minutes.

For a normal hypertrophy (muscle growth) routine: Use 8-10 reps with a shorter rest period of around 45-60 seconds.

For endurance: Use higher reps of say 12 and up, rest for a period of no less then 30 seconds. "

Google set and rep ranges and literally all the major websites will repeat the above. I have never traine dfor more than 8 motnhs consistantly but mase the best gains on 3 x 10 (was in my twenties) and am now doing pretty well with 4 x 6-8. $ x 8 is a lot of vollume though so if you try it be careful with exercise sellection.
[/quote]

Please share these strength gains that you have kept since starting strength.

You just said in another thread your deadlift work sets are 220 lbs for 5x5. How did you manage such amazing gains?

8

I’m starting to have a bro-crush on you^^, hell on anybody who calls people out…

9

[quote]leon36 wrote:
Some stuff on the internet that should already be pretty common knowledge for anyone serious about this stuff anyway.
[/quote]

Leon, please, for everyone’s sake… just stop giving advice. Keep a training log, and put on some impressive gains, and then you’re a bit more qualified to give some advice. Even though you did stuff in the past, it’s really just not that relevant if you managed to lose your gains.

However, based on your claimed running experience, you’re probably fairly qualified for some stuff in the conditioning forum. Maybe, maybe not. But your very first post here talked about all the running and cardio you used to do.

(FWIW, a 220 deadlift really isn’t that impressive, even for a raw beginner. With no prior lifting experience I was able to do that at 6’ 138lbs. I used to run middle distance, but that’s the extent of my prior training.)

10

As far as your training frequency for chest and back goes, I train bench twice a week and row during every training session. I really feel like rowing every day I lift has helped my total rise tremendously and now my back is monstrous which is also nice. Because of your level of development, I would steer away from isolation movements, super sets, etc… and just stick with heavy straight sets with compound movements. 5x5 would be a good place to start to develop size and strength.

11

[quote]kravi wrote:
I started with just chest, back, legs and shoulders. But I decided from a strength point of view that my chest and back were lagging (compared to legs and shoulders), so I added an extra bench to leg day, and an extra dumbbell row (not barbell) to shoulder day. I know, weird, but I just, as I can recover from this, wanted to try to boost chest and back a bit more for as long as I can.[/quote]
Gotcha, but if something was lagging (and we’re taking your word that they are), the idea would be to attack them more efficiently, rather than a bit one day and a bit another day.

Both ways work, so it’s no big deal. But when you have back/tris and chest/bis, you just need to factor recovery time so you’re not fatiguing triceps the day right before chest (or the bis before back) which could impact the bigger muscle’s training session. But it’s not at all like one way is right and one is wrong.

Cool. Those are two very solid templates. The GVT was kind of a stretch, I just thought I’d toss it your way and see.

No prob at all man, didn’t actually sound defensive.

12

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]kravi wrote:
I started with just chest, back, legs and shoulders. But I decided from a strength point of view that my chest and back were lagging (compared to legs and shoulders), so I added an extra bench to leg day, and an extra dumbbell row (not barbell) to shoulder day. I know, weird, but I just, as I can recover from this, wanted to try to boost chest and back a bit more for as long as I can.[/quote]
Gotcha, but if something was lagging (and we’re taking your word that they are), the idea would be to attack them more efficiently, rather than a bit one day and a bit another day.

Both ways work, so it’s no big deal. But when you have back/tris and chest/bis, you just need to factor recovery time so you’re not fatiguing triceps the day right before chest (or the bis before back) which could impact the bigger muscle’s training session. But it’s not at all like one way is right and one is wrong.

Cool. Those are two very solid templates. The GVT was kind of a stretch, I just thought I’d toss it your way and see.

No prob at all man, didn’t actually sound defensive.[/quote]

Thanks for the patience with your responses :slight_smile:

So my numbers, just to show you why I think chest and back are lagging are:

DL: 400 1RM
Squat: 320 1RM (both DL and squat have taken off lately - had earlier problems with stalling at 285 for 3 x 5s. That went away).
Shoulder Press: 145 1RM
Bench Press: 185 1RM (see)
Barbell Row: 165 1RM (see also).

I tested 1 RMs last week for giggles. Making 400 on my DL (I know, not impressive for serious folks, but for me it was a milestone).

I’m also novice enough that I don’t feel that adding in an extra session of bench or back really causes any recovery problem, nor have my arms felt like they are lagging from the training.

Advice on how to bring up chest/back on the programs you are recommending would be helpful.

Many thanks!

–Me

13

[quote]kravi wrote:
DL: 400 1RM
Squat: 320 1RM (both DL and squat have taken off lately - had earlier problems with stalling at 285 for 3 x 5s. That went away).
Shoulder Press: 145 1RM
Bench Press: 185 1RM (see)
Barbell Row: 165 1RM (see also).[/quote]
Again, what’s your current height, weight, and general fat level?

Congrats on the deadlift, but I don’t think your chest and back are lagging as much as you think.

You’re a hair away from benching “200-something”, squatting “300-something”, and deadlifting “400-something” - a common strength standard. So, yeah, you still need some upper body strength, but who doesn’t? From the sound of it before, I thought you’d be squatting 315 and benching under 100 or something drastically lopsided like that.

Start on any of the pre-written programs ASAP and it’ll sort itself out along the way, really.

14

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Again, what’s your current height, weight, and general fat level?
[/quote]

5’9", 91kg (I think around 200lbs). Rough guess is 16 - 20% body fat, as I have a flat stomach, but a bit of fat still on my hips/lower back - enough to bug me, anyway. No mushroom top, though, even in my 34 dress pants.

–Me

15

[quote]kravi wrote:
5’9", 91kg (I think around 200lbs). Rough guess is 16 - 20% body fat, as I have a flat stomach, but a bit of fat still on my hips/lower back - enough to bug me, anyway. No mushroom top, though, even in my 34 dress pants.[/quote]
Gotcha.

Again, then, I’d say you’re right on point and not necessarily lagging to an extreme extent. You’ve got a 1.5xBodyweight squat, 2x Bodyweight deadlift, and you’re closing in on a bodyweight bench. That’s a nice place to be, just keep at it.