[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Not sure if this has been discussed but I don’t necessarily think profiling based on race is that beneficial in preventing a crime, however, it cannot be denied that certain assumptions based on statistics can be drawn after the commission of a crime. For instance while being black doesn’t make you a car thief or being white doesn’t make you a serial killer, if someone steals my car it is a safe bet that the race of the person involved was black, while if someone kidnaps a little boy and puts him in his freezer probably looking for a white man.
[/quote]
Wow. It is assumptions like that which had an entire country looking for a black man when that white mother killed all her kids and claimed a black man stole her car.[/quote]
In that case they were looking for a black man because she said a black man stole her car. However had they found the car and the children dead in it I guarantee you that they would have been quick to rethink “the black man did it” theory.[/quote]
While that may be, it doesn’t change the fact that
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A white women was comfortable in her knowledge of society to KNOW that her plan would work because she said the man was black (even though she said he stole it with kids inside which is something no car thief will do)
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Days were wasted chasing the fake “black man” even though she drowned the kids herself.
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Society was further damaged by the divide created by this ruckus since all black people got to see this effect in color.
[quote]
Also I saw an interview with a profiler in that case that was very suspicious because of her story. The majority of car thefts are opportunistic crimes and not extremely violent, the fact that the children in the car were taken made that less of a believable story because the profile did not fit. Your run of the mill car thief are typically street savvy and not going to intentionally bring down the eat of a kidnapping charge. That story she told actually cast doubt on her because the profile did not fit.[/quote]
It worked enough to buy DAYS.
That is how damaging this “stats rush” is.[/quote]
I will give you that in that case there seemed to definitely be a little bit of the “scary black man” propaganda being stoked by a desperate woman, and a group of people around her taking that and running wild with it. I should have been clear that I was not trying to say that some racial prejudices weren’t allowed to get the better of calmer heads in that situation because I believe they were. And that is a huge danger with profiling if someone uses it improperly. I do however think that when kept in the proper context by trained unbiased individuals, profiling can be a useful tool.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I will give you that in that case there seemed to definitely be a little bit of the “scary black man” propaganda being stoked by a desperate woman, and a group of people around her taking that and running wild with it. I should have been clear that I was not trying to say that some racial prejudices weren’t allowed to get the better of calmer heads in that situation because I believe they were. And that is a huge danger with profiling if someone uses it improperly. I do however think that when kept in the proper context by trained unbiased individuals, profiling can be a useful tool.[/quote]
I think it causes way too much damage to entertain…because again, no one has shown that crime is decreasing by these tactics.
They have only proven to alienate an entire portion of society, many of which have significant contributions to make but never will as a result.
Just like in that case, the media ate it up…BLACK MAN STEALS CAR WITH KIDS was the headliner. They even had his “artist rendered” photo up.
The truth?
White people KNOW that blacks get fingered for more crimes and can use it…and have publicly to the destruction of inter-racial unity.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Not sure if this has been discussed but I don’t necessarily think profiling based on race is that beneficial in preventing a crime, however, it cannot be denied that certain assumptions based on statistics can be drawn after the commission of a crime. For instance while being black doesn’t make you a car thief or being white doesn’t make you a serial killer, if someone steals my car it is a safe bet that the race of the person involved was black, while if someone kidnaps a little boy and puts him in his freezer probably looking for a white man.
[/quote]
Wow. It is assumptions like that which had an entire country looking for a black man when that white mother killed all her kids and claimed a black man stole her car.[/quote]
In that case they were looking for a black man because she said a black man stole her car. However had they found the car and the children dead in it I guarantee you that they would have been quick to rethink “the black man did it” theory.[/quote]
While that may be, it doesn’t change the fact that
-
A white women was comfortable in her knowledge of society to KNOW that her plan would work because she said the man was black (even though she said he stole it with kids inside which is something no car thief will do)
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Days were wasted chasing the fake “black man” even though she drowned the kids herself.[/quote]
In your opinion, had she said a “white man in his late teens” rather than black male do you think less time would have been wasted looking for a white male in his late teens, than was spent looking for a black male?
I’m not trying to trap you. I am just curious if your perception of the situation is different.
I think I stated earlier, if not I meant to, that it is not at all really effective at reducing crimes (with a few exceptions, and none of them racial). At best it can be used as a tool to solve a crime but even then it doesn’t prove anything and should be used almost a last resort when more tangible aspects have been exhausted.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
In your opinion, had she said a “white man in his late teens” rather than black male do you think less time would have been wasted looking for a white male in his late teens, than was spent looking for a black male?[/quote]
Yes. First, they wouldn’t have led a nation wide manhunt for this black man who supposedly stole some white kids.
Do you really remember the ruckus over this?
She knew that saying “BLACK MAN” would have all cops on alert…AWAY FROM HER.
She gave an artist enough info to make a profile picture.
This was the 90’s…I think it may have been before OJ. Yes, the world was pretty racist back then.
[quote]
I’m not trying to trap you. I am just curious if your perception of the situation is different. [/quote]
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I think I stated earlier, if not I meant to, that it is not at all really effective at reducing crimes (with a few exceptions, and none of them racial). At best it can be used as a tool to solve a crime but even then it doesn’t prove anything and should be used almost a last resort when more tangible aspects have been exhausted.[/quote]
So what good is it doing to look at more black men and assume “black men commit more crime”?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Do you really remember the ruckus over this?[/quote]
No, so I’m trying to gauge where my perception/biases may be, because this is a good example. Because now I can go back and read about it.
Things were certainly different than they are now.
I was thinking in terms of today when I originally asked the question. And I would like to hope that the reaction by the press and authorities would be the same irrelevant of the pretend perpetrators skin color when she lied to the cops.
Maybe I’m wrong.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Here’s the thang. For the purpose of law enforcement it makes no difference what the cause is, as I said. Only that it is the case. Cause cannot be addressed at the level of law enforcement or even legislation. Only the reality of the situation is relevant. I’m not even endorsing any specific profiling scheme as that can go way outta hand too. My only point is that, especially in urban jurisdictions, blacks commit an inordinately large percentage of the crime and to ignore that in the name of some fruity notion of fairness is idiotic and dangerous. Especially to the other blacks who are also a very hefty percentage of the victims.
[/quote]
Once again, how is it “blacks commit more crime” and not “those people in that socio-economic status commit more crime”?
You are looking at SKIN COLOR and saying those people colored that way commit more crime…when it is not SKIN COLOR causing anyone to do anything but lifestyle and environment.
You are literally trying to make it ok for people to judge me as a negative based on NOTHING but my skin color.
Yet you don’t see that as racist?
WTF?[/quote]
Blacks commit more crime is a fact. The sky is also blue, whether it offends you or not.
Most serial killers are also white middle aged men. I guess that makes me racist against myself. Since I acknowledge that mathematical fact.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I think I stated earlier, if not I meant to, that it is not at all really effective at reducing crimes (with a few exceptions, and none of them racial). At best it can be used as a tool to solve a crime but even then it doesn’t prove anything and should be used almost a last resort when more tangible aspects have been exhausted.[/quote]
So what good is it doing to look at more black men and assume “black men commit more crime”?[/quote]
Poor urban males commit the most crime percentage wise. Now what is the most common race of poor urban males? Does that mean that every young black guy growing up in Harlem, Compton, the 9th ward, or Englewood is a criminal, No. It simply means that a higher percentage of his peers will commit crimes. Nothing racial about that, it is merely facts. I actually feel bad for some of these guys who start out life behind the 8 ball. Should make everyone stop and be thankful for what the blessing of a happy childhood.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Blacks commit more crime is a fact. [/quote]
Not one of you have shown this or proven this.
Showing data of arrests does NOT mean BLACKS COMMIT MORE CRIME or that it is a fact.
[quote]
Most serial killers are also white middle aged men. I guess that makes me racist against myself. Since I acknowledge that mathematical fact.[/quote]
Most serial killers who have been caught or known have been white males. That is what is true.
It is NOT true to say, “white men are more prone to be serial killers”.
See the difference?
To put it another way, being black does not make one more likely to become a criminal, however a higher percentage of blacks and hispanics grow up in situations that make one more predisposed to criminal behavior than whites, therefore, a higher percentage of the black and Hispanic populations are criminals than whites. This does not say anything about the race in general being bad, just that more of them commit crimes than whites due to a variety of reasons.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Things were certainly different than they are now.
I was thinking in terms of today when I originally asked the question. And I would like to hope that the reaction by the press and authorities would be the same irrelevant of the pretend perpetrators skin color when she lied to the cops.
Maybe I’m wrong. [/quote]
Oh, today you can bet that this would not happen…BECAUSE all of this other stuff has happened already.
These huge world wide viewed faults of our own media and legal system are not happening in a vacuum. They change the world.
They also show how much wrong can happen when people do have the green light to use stats any way they want.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Blacks commit more crime is a fact. [/quote]
Not one of you have shown this or proven this.
Showing data of arrests does NOT mean BLACKS COMMIT MORE CRIME or that it is a fact.
[quote]
Most serial killers are also white middle aged men. I guess that makes me racist against myself. Since I acknowledge that mathematical fact.[/quote]
Most serial killers who have been caught or known have been white males. That is what is true.
It is NOT true to say, “white men are more prone to be serial killers”.
See the difference?[/quote]
White men are more likely to be serial killers is a fact though. And yes, it most certainly can be said.
You should see my basement.
But, no one claimed blacks are prone to crime. In fact the people you started this nonsense with have stated the opposite over and over. That being black doesn’t make you prone to anything.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
But, no one claimed blacks are prone to crime. In fact the people you started this nonsense with have stated the opposite over and over. That being black doesn’t make you prone to anything.[/quote]
Yes, they say this while making statements in the very same line that state that ethnicity shows you probably of criminal intent.
That isn’t logical.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
But, no one claimed blacks are prone to crime. In fact the people you started this nonsense with have stated the opposite over and over. That being black doesn’t make you prone to anything.[/quote]
Yes, they say this while making statements in the very same line that state that ethnicity shows you probably of criminal intent.
That isn’t logical.[/quote]
Ethnicity does inform probability. Again, that is simply stating statistical fact. You used the word prone. As in having an inclination to do something. Prone implies a causal relationship. Statistical probability/correlation is a completely different thing. Statistical correlation doesn’t necessitate causation, nor does it shown blacks are prone to something as inherent in their race.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Most serial killers who have been caught or known have been white males. That is what is true.
It is NOT true to say, “white men are more prone to be serial killers”.
See the difference?[/quote]
I understand your point, and I have tried to be careful not to insinuate it any other way.
While being a white male doesn’t make you a serial killer, a serial killer is more than likely a white male. Not always true but certainly the statistical probability. Every crime has a statistically probable offender. Now you can debate that the race of this offender would have more to do with the other socio-economic factors that come in to play, and you’d be correct, however, race is just one more layer to the profile.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
But, no one claimed blacks are prone to crime. In fact the people you started this nonsense with have stated the opposite over and over. That being black doesn’t make you prone to anything.[/quote]
Yes, they say this while making statements in the very same line that state that ethnicity shows you probably of criminal intent.
That isn’t logical.[/quote]
Ethnicity does inform probability. Again, that is simply stating statistical fact. You used the word prone. As in having an inclination to do something. Prone implies a causal relationship. Statistical probability/correlation is a completely different thing. Statistical correlation doesn’t necessitate causation, nor does it shown blacks are prone to something as inherent in their race.[/quote]
This statement by Tiribulus is what is being discussed:
No data shown has shown that blacks commit more crime.
You also stated this and nothing you have shown shows that blacks commit more crime.
Showing stats of arrests or prosecutions does NOT show who actually does more crime.
By profiling more blacks, you will arrest more blacks.
This does not mean “blacks commit more crime”.
That is the damage done by “profiling” on a grand scale…perception.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank DD for getting it. We haven’t always agreed, but we do here. I almost brought up the serial killer thing myself, but figured I’d hang onto it until a more effective time to do so presented itself. It came without me LOL!
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It is an undeniable statistical fact that blacks commit an inordinately large percentage of serious crime.
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This is not because they are black.
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White people with the same history and the same circumstances would do the same thing.
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This is because people are like… people… see?
For the record Doc, I have never been angry with you once since I’ve known you. Never. Nor am I now. So do know that that is not my motivation when I tell you that you have allowed race to consume your consciousness. I have said NOTHING like you have accused me of yet you keep seeing it there because you can’t help it. All is racist to the racist eye. If you are ever in Detroit, I would love to take you to my church so you can see how people can love each other no matter what color they are. This big bald white guy gets more gooey love and hugs from black men and women (and children) on a given Sunday morning than I bet you do in a month. Or two. Not just Sunday either. We are family. As I’ve said, the only color that matters to us is red because we are all washed together in the blood of the spotless Lamb of God. We celebrate our creator’s beautiful wisdom in making us all different while making us all in His image and likeness just the same.
One more thing. I do NOT think you hate white people. That’s the wrong way to characterize your mindset.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Lies, damned lies, and statistics - Wikipedia [/quote] I jist know you didn’t intend to actually establish anything by this right? While I do not hold human science in the same exalted regard that most moderns do, STATISTICS are an indispensable component of the scientific method.