Profiling

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
in this country dark skin is strongly correlated to higher criminal activity. It’s a statistical fact.
[/quote]

Statistical fact that a “correlation” exists? A “correlation” alone isn’t enough to grant a medical study yet you are using it to defend profiling?

You could make a “correlation” between crime and eating pancakes. What is your point?

[quote]

If you disagree with the the legal system determining the legality (criminality) of people, you aren’t talking about criminality. You might me something more along moral lines, but criminality is the subject of discussion.[/quote]

?? I said our own legal system is FAULTY and sends innocent people to jail. I then proved that with the dna testing.

[quote]
And if that is what is in contention, your repeated pulling of the race card is BS. Since what is being argued is the definition of criminality and its’ quantification, not personal racial bias.[/quote]

? You are saying RACE has a high correlation with crime…as if culture and economic factors are not the cause of crime but SKIN COLOR. No one is pulling a race card but you for saying that.[/quote]

None of that matters to statistical probability. Correlation is all that is necessary. Correlation was all that was claimed. In order to predict probability, race is a strong indicator. Period.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

None of that matters to statistical probability. Correlation is all that is necessary. Correlation was all that was claimed. In order to predict probability, race is a strong indicator. Period. [/quote]

Based on a proven faulty legal system and a society with a strong history of racial bias that can still be seen today?

Psst. Hey X:

This report shows blacks and whites use illegal drugs–i.e., commit use and possession crimes at about the same rate–but that blacks are significantly and disproportionately arrested and convicted more often. In other words, although Whites are a much larger percentage of the population and use illegal drugs at the same rate:

? African Americans constituted 53.5 percent of all persons who entered prison because of a drug conviction;
? Blacks were 10.1 times more likely than whites to enter prison for drug offenses;
? A black man was 11.8 times more likely than a white man to enter prison for drug offenses;
? A black woman was 4.8 times more likely than a white woman to enter prison for drug offenses;
? Among all African Americans entering prison, almost two out of five (38.2 percent) were convicted of drug offenses, compared to one in four whites (25.4 percent); and
? Although still dramatic, the racial disparity in the ratio of black to white prison admission rates for drug offenses in 2003 was in most states less than in 1996. Nevertheless, because of the increase in the disparity in states with large populations such as New York and California, the racial disparity across the 34 states was higher in 2003 than it was in 1996. In 2003, the black prison admission rate for drug offenses was 10. 1 times that of whites. In 1996, it was 9.9 times greater.

P.S.

You are welcome.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
in this country dark skin is strongly correlated to higher criminal activity. It’s a statistical fact.
[/quote]

Statistical fact that a “correlation” exists? A “correlation” alone isn’t enough to grant a medical study yet you are using it to defend profiling?

You could make a “correlation” between crime and eating pancakes. What is your point?

[quote]

If you disagree with the the legal system determining the legality (criminality) of people, you aren’t talking about criminality. You might me something more along moral lines, but criminality is the subject of discussion.[/quote]

?? I said our own legal system is FAULTY and sends innocent people to jail. I then proved that with the dna testing.

[quote]
And if that is what is in contention, your repeated pulling of the race card is BS. Since what is being argued is the definition of criminality and its’ quantification, not personal racial bias.[/quote]

? You are saying RACE has a high correlation with crime…as if culture and economic factors are not the cause of crime but SKIN COLOR. No one is pulling a race card but you for saying that.[/quote]

People often take the faulty step from correlation to causation. This situation seems to mirror preventive medicine and the Seven Countries Study on heart disease something I feel people here would be wary of. Researchers found a “correlation” between dietary fat and heart disease. These researchers mistakenly thought it was their duty to turn this correlation into causation to help the population at large directly leading to the skewed high-carb, low-fat diet mentality which is only making us fatter.

It has been noted there is a correlation between skin color and crime rate, but it’s just that a correlation not a casual relationship. We may look back in 20 years and realize shit, it wasn’t really race but some other factor driving these differences in crime rate (I personally agree with the sentiment that it’s socio-economic differences).

[quote]no_name_narrator wrote:
…directly leading to the skewed high-carb, low-fat diet mentality which is only making us fatter.[/quote]

America was never a “low fat” nation in practice and it’s totally senseless to blame the obesity epidemic on carbohydrate.

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]no_name_narrator wrote:
…directly leading to the skewed high-carb, low-fat diet mentality which is only making us fatter.[/quote]

America was never a “low fat” nation in practice and it’s totally senseless to blame the obesity epidemic on carbohydrate.[/quote]

My wording was off, I didn’t mean to insinuate that carbs are the sole reason for obesity. However, I do think that making conclusions from epidemiological studies like the seven nations (which can only show correlation) led us to erroneous conclusions such as it being better to replace saturated fats with hydrogenated oils and shortening and taking in lower than 10% of your calories from fat.

Tell me what you see in the following statement please.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Psst. Hey X:

This report shows blacks and whites use illegal drugs–i.e., commit use and possession crimes at about the same rate–but that blacks are significantly and disproportionately arrested and convicted more often. In other words, although Whites are a much larger percentage of the population and use illegal drugs at the same rate:

? African Americans constituted 53.5 percent of all persons who entered prison because of a drug conviction;
? Blacks were 10.1 times more likely than whites to enter prison for drug offenses;
? A black man was 11.8 times more likely than a white man to enter prison for drug offenses;
? A black woman was 4.8 times more likely than a white woman to enter prison for drug offenses;
? Among all African Americans entering prison, almost two out of five (38.2 percent) were convicted of drug offenses, compared to one in four whites (25.4 percent); and
? Although still dramatic, the racial disparity in the ratio of black to white prison admission rates for drug offenses in 2003 was in most states less than in 1996. Nevertheless, because of the increase in the disparity in states with large populations such as New York and California, the racial disparity across the 34 states was higher in 2003 than it was in 1996. In 2003, the black prison admission rate for drug offenses was 10. 1 times that of whites. In 1996, it was 9.9 times greater.

P.S.

You are welcome.
[/quote]
How bout one for crimes like murder, rape, assault and robbery.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Psst. Hey X:

This report shows blacks and whites use illegal drugs–i.e., commit use and possession crimes at about the same rate–but that blacks are significantly and disproportionately arrested and convicted more often. In other words, although Whites are a much larger percentage of the population and use illegal drugs at the same rate:

? African Americans constituted 53.5 percent of all persons who entered prison because of a drug conviction;
? Blacks were 10.1 times more likely than whites to enter prison for drug offenses;
? A black man was 11.8 times more likely than a white man to enter prison for drug offenses;
? A black woman was 4.8 times more likely than a white woman to enter prison for drug offenses;
? Among all African Americans entering prison, almost two out of five (38.2 percent) were convicted of drug offenses, compared to one in four whites (25.4 percent); and
? Although still dramatic, the racial disparity in the ratio of black to white prison admission rates for drug offenses in 2003 was in most states less than in 1996. Nevertheless, because of the increase in the disparity in states with large populations such as New York and California, the racial disparity across the 34 states was higher in 2003 than it was in 1996. In 2003, the black prison admission rate for drug offenses was 10. 1 times that of whites. In 1996, it was 9.9 times greater.

P.S.

You are welcome.
[/quote]

Not all drug crimes are equivalent. Getting busted with a joint on you is not the same as getting busted with 100 plants in your basement is not the same as getting busted selling to elementary school kids.

Do you have more specific statistics? “Drug crimes” is too broad of a criteria to show bias. It could be just as easily that they commit different kinds of violations or with different quantities or with different types of drugs. It could also be that the correlation is actually with poverty which also happens to correlate to race. Or, more probably, some collaboration of factors.

Again correlation and causation seem to be getting confused here.

There are a vastly disproportionate number of blacks in the NBA and whites in the NHL, that does not prove racism or bias in the system.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Ever seen MTV Cribs? Watch every single episode and keep track of all the Scarface and Michael Corleone posters you see. I guarantee you that about 99% of those posters are found in the homes of minorities. Why is a poster of a fictional criminal who murdered his way to wealth on the wall if not as some form of acceptance of that form of criminality. [/quote]

Why don’t you rephrase that question like so: Why is a poster of a semi-fictional white criminal who murdered his way to wealth in a film written and directed by white men and critically acclaimed by white critics and made millions of dollars off of white film goers on the wall if not as some form of acceptance of that form of criminality.

White man buys boxed DVD Godfather set which sits prominently on his shelf. Hispanic man buys Michael Corleone poster. Who exactly is accepting what?

If a white person has a John Wayne poster on his wall does that mean he accepts the genocide of the Indians in a positive way?

The irony is that whenever these threads pop up the arguments that are applied to blacks could (and at one time did) apply to the “Corleones” in America. When someone you know (like my uncle) is put into a coma (via tire iron) because of his ethnicity come back and talk about the joys of profiling.

[/quote]

Critical acclaim and popularity are far different from idolization. Idolization is a step or two beyond popularity or acclaim. Besides, in all likelihood, the Hispanic man has the boxed set AND the poster.

I don’t see your point regarding my overall statement on the matter, though. By deflecting attention away from the actual problem and toward the way the “white man” analogizes or illustrates the issue is a pretty typical response from people in the minority crowd. You’ve simply ignored the veracity of my argument by essentially saying, “well, the white man does it too”. Is that the standard that minorities try to maintain? That of the white man? Because that’s actually a pretty low standard.

Forget about the white man. This isn’t about him. This is about crime rates amongst minorities and the reasons, beyond simple racism, that minorities by any statistical measure commit crimes at a far higher rate than whites do. Stop deflecting attention away from that very, very basic fact. Why do you think that this is? Do you think that it is a complete fallacy to argue that there seems to be a much more acceptable, tolerant view of criminal activity amongst minorities?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
Psst. Hey X:

This report shows blacks and whites use illegal drugs–i.e., commit use and possession crimes at about the same rate–but that blacks are significantly and disproportionately arrested and convicted more often. In other words, although Whites are a much larger percentage of the population and use illegal drugs at the same rate:

? African Americans constituted 53.5 percent of all persons who entered prison because of a drug conviction;
? Blacks were 10.1 times more likely than whites to enter prison for drug offenses;
? A black man was 11.8 times more likely than a white man to enter prison for drug offenses;
? A black woman was 4.8 times more likely than a white woman to enter prison for drug offenses;
? Among all African Americans entering prison, almost two out of five (38.2 percent) were convicted of drug offenses, compared to one in four whites (25.4 percent); and
? Although still dramatic, the racial disparity in the ratio of black to white prison admission rates for drug offenses in 2003 was in most states less than in 1996. Nevertheless, because of the increase in the disparity in states with large populations such as New York and California, the racial disparity across the 34 states was higher in 2003 than it was in 1996. In 2003, the black prison admission rate for drug offenses was 10. 1 times that of whites. In 1996, it was 9.9 times greater.

P.S.

You are welcome.
[/quote]

Not all drug crimes are equivalent. Getting busted with a joint on you is not the same as getting busted with 100 plants in your basement is not the same as getting busted selling to elementary school kids.

Do you have more specific statistics? “Drug crimes” is too broad of a criteria to show bias. It could be just as easily that they commit different kinds of violations or with different quantities or with different types of drugs. It could also be that the correlation is actually with poverty which also happens to correlate to race. Or, more probably, some collaboration of factors.

Again correlation and causation seem to be getting confused here.

There are a vastly disproportionate number of blacks in the NBA and whites in the NHL, that does not prove racism or bias in the system.[/quote]

I agree there is a difference between intentional discrimination and mere “disparate impact”, but where there is obvious disparate impact I think this certainly justifies asking questions and digging a little deeper. X was getting slammed out of hand for suggesting that there might not be a direct correlation between conviction rate and commission rate of crimes or that there aren’t real disparities in the system. Getting data to support or refute this theory is tough for obvious reasons. But drug use is one crime that has been researched enough to where social scientists have a pretty good handle on actual commissions rates to compare to conviction rates. Not exact, no doubt, but there is a lot of data, more so than with other types of crimes. I suspect that’s why HRW focused on this particular type of crime, and the report explains the data it is relying on for you to judge for yourself if it has any validity.

I think the question is complex, but at some point if the stats raise the inference that there are real disparities based on race on commission versus conviction rate, the burden shifts to proponents of the system to show there are good racially neutral or harmless reasons for the disparities, not the other way around. This is just one report, and you make good points, but I think this report raises legitimate questions in my mind about whether there are, in fact, real and substantial inequities in the system based on race that need to be explained before we can safely declare no racial bias.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Tell me what you see in the following statement please.

My bad I missed that. While I think that reasoning is valid, I find it hard to advocate racial profiling when I don’t think it’s the underlying cause of the disparities in crime rates. While it might be “effective”, it doesn’t morally sit right with me…call me an idealist

[quote]no_name_narrator wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Tell me what you see in the following statement please.

[quote]it IS manifestly clear that, regardless of reason, ethnicity WILL tell you something significant about the statistical probability of an individual’s being involved in criminal activity. Yes it will. I am on record here a dozen times declaring my steadfast conviction that this is NOT a function of African heritage in any way.[/quote][/quote]My bad I missed that. While I think that reasoning is valid, I find it hard to advocate racial profiling when I don’t think it’s the underlying cause of the disparities in crime rates. While it might be “effective”, it doesn’t morally sit right with me…call me an idealist[/quote]You’re way ahead of Professor X. Maybe you can explain better than I can,
Here’s the thang. For the purpose of law enforcement it makes no difference what the cause is, as I said. Only that it is the case. Cause cannot be addressed at the level of law enforcement or even legislation. Only the reality of the situation is relevant. I’m not even endorsing any specific profiling scheme as that can go way outta hand too. My only point is that, especially in urban jurisdictions, blacks commit an inordinately large percentage of the crime and to ignore that in the name of some fruity notion of fairness is idiotic and dangerous. Especially to the other blacks who are also a very hefty percentage of the victims.

[quote]Doc says<<< I am still not sure what it is you are disagreeing with. >>>[/quote] I’m saying (for the tenth time to you over the past several years) that being black does not cause anyone to be a criminal lowlife. Having no moral upbringing is the major cause and that is the result of the disintegration of families. A thing I might add, just like crime, that is uniquely high among blacks. Why? Because this degenerate nation has paid them to not get married and take care of themselves. So they don’t. Where this situation prevails among whites we have similar disastrous results. (no_name_narrator , you’re new. Watch he reacts to this) [quote]Doc says<<< You claim the people in your church do not match statistical data…as if your church/belief is the sole reason why… [/quote] It is the reason why. You cannot possibly comprehend the horrific death defying lives on the streets of this city many of these people have been delivered from by the hands of a merciful mighty God. An unquenchable longing to bring glory and honor to His name in gratitude for His grace motivates them to reject everything you believe. [quote]Doc says<<< and not that maybe those stats are a little misrepresented also.[/quote] This is another really bad practice Doc. It hasn’t served you well at all. You’d think you’d know better by now. Falsely attacking my character is not an argument. It’s desperation. You didn’t even glance at that piece on “judging” I linked you to did you?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]no_name_narrator wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Tell me what you see in the following statement please.

[quote]it IS manifestly clear that, regardless of reason, ethnicity WILL tell you something significant about the statistical probability of an individual’s being involved in criminal activity. Yes it will. I am on record here a dozen times declaring my steadfast conviction that this is NOT a function of African heritage in any way.[/quote][/quote]My bad I missed that. While I think that reasoning is valid, I find it hard to advocate racial profiling when I don’t think it’s the underlying cause of the disparities in crime rates. While it might be “effective”, it doesn’t morally sit right with me…call me an idealist[/quote]You’re way ahead of Professor X. Maybe you can explain better than I can,
Here’s the thang. For the purpose of law enforcement it makes no difference what the cause is, as I said. Only that it is the case. Cause cannot be addressed at the level of law enforcement or even legislation. Only the reality of the situation is relevant. I’m not even endorsing any specific profiling scheme as that can go way outta hand too. My only point is that, especially in urban jurisdictions, blacks commit an inordinately large percentage of the crime and to ignore that in the name of some fruity notion of fairness is idiotic and dangerous. Especially to the other blacks who are also a very hefty percentage of the victims.
[/quote]

It’s funny because I can see all the logic behind what you’re saying and I’ve even defended the same postiion before, but I still find it almost a waste to focus more on the symptoms rather than the causes (socie-economic disparities, cultural dispositions, etc.)I’d rather try to eliminate the differences rather than just react to what they cause.

That’s not to say we can’t work towards idealistic equality while using profiling at the same time(while it is still statistically effective), but it just seems like ways to eliminate these glaring socio-economic differences don’t get as much lip-service as it deserves

[quote]no_name_narrator wrote:<<< I still find it almost a waste to focus more on the symptoms rather than the causes >>>[/quote]When a rapist murderer is at large in the community, what is important at that moment is catching him. Preferably before he rapes and murders again. Almost no other time and circumstance could be less appropriate for determining the cause of his raping murdering propensities. How bout if we get him off the street using whatever best methods we have at our disposal to do so? Then we can find out why he does it and it’ll be the same story it is 95% of the time anyway. [quote]no_name_narrator says:<<< economic disparities, >>>[/quote] only cause destructive [quote]cultural dispositions,[/quote] when there is no motivation beyond economics whch is the case where there is no moral family structure at least. In other words, there are VERY poor very BLACK people in our church. They do not commit crimes because they have a motivation larger than money that governs them. Voluntarily. The same motivation this country’s founders told us would be necessary for their fledgling nation to survive. We are now ignoring them and we are not surviving. They were wiser than us (here it comes again) [quote]no_name_narrator wrote:<<< I’d rather try to eliminate the differences rather than just react to what they cause. [/quote] The differences that actually matter CANNOT be imposed by the mandate of law. That is the diametric opposite of this nation’s design exactly because the founders recognized that only private voluntary self control and responsibility could sustain their experiment in liberty and limited government. Poor people aren’t automatically criminals. Character-less lowlifes are criminals with or without money.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

That’s why I said we can still use profiling in these cases while also working towards identifying the root cause of the problem (mental health, societal issues, etc etc)

I’d be interested to see if data that crime rates were lower when our nation was initially founded. A quick Google search didn’t turn up much.

I can get onboard with the idea that people with strong character and good morals (regardless of religious affiliation) are less likely to commit crime. But how do we go about promoting that…

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
Do you think that it is a complete fallacy to argue that there seems to be a much more acceptable, tolerant view of criminal activity amongst minorities?[/quote]

Complete fallacy? Maybe not, but I think the conversation about it might end up drawing dangerous conclusions.

And I only say this because, when I was younger, I hung around with, well I’ll be honest, criminals and criminal minded people. Now most of these people went beyond tolerant and celebrated criminal activity.

Now if I am to think back and focus on the intelligent members of this group (ignoring the people’s who’s brains didn’t function correctly on purpose) I would say the most common factor among them was the fact they grew up “poor”. (Poor being subjective.) They saw people working hard in school and getting out of the area that way, and then they saw a dude make $3,500 in 3 hours selling crack, in one apartment.

These kids were smart enough to do well in school, but that was too long, and too much work. When they could turn around and make real money now, and not have to take any tests. Add that to the fact they were young males who thought they were invincible, the music and culture they surrounded themselves with (at least on some levels) glorified the criminal life, and bag, you have a kid who is going to choose selling dope over reading a Social Studies book…

Black kids, white kids, it didn’t matter. They embraced the life because it was:
a) the way out of poor
b) the example they saw and were enamored by
c) the celebrity of being the “bad boy”
d) it gave them power, status
e) They lived the movies they watched and songs they listened too

Fuck, what did I do wrong with the quotes?