[quote]Professor X wrote:
This is my personal reason for avoiding deadlifts especially since some of the best backs on stage lately include some who don’t do this exercise (Ben White).[/quote]
PX-
What kind of movements do you do for lower back in lieu of deadlifts (if you’ve already been asked this in the other PX thread, I’ll go mine the info).
Thanks!
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Professor X wrote:
This is my personal reason for avoiding deadlifts especially since some of the best backs on stage lately include some who don’t do this exercise (Ben White).
PX-
What kind of movements do you do for lower back in lieu of deadlifts (if you’ve already been asked this in the other PX thread, I’ll go mine the info).
Thanks!
[/quote]
I don’t do anything for it directly aside from work it may get on bent over/T-bar rows. Obviously, if I was going to compete, I would focus more intently on it and add in either good mornings or the lower back machines.
[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
Yeah I noticed you said you don’t do deadlifts before, but I was wondering if you had any close calls with back tweaks or something. I was lifting yesterday doing rack pulls and when I went to lift what would have been a new PR, i felt a burst of pain in my lower right back and had to stop. Pretty soon it seized up and when I went to see the PT in the building (it was a university gym) she said that I had tweaked my quadratus lumborum. In any case, I did this about 2 years ago while squatting what was my PR, (and due to that and my torn acl, is still my PR).
I was wondering if perhaps I should just wear a weight belt when training max lifts for these exercises or what. Granted, none of this was super heavy (535 for rack pulls and 405 for my squat) but now that my back is tweaked and its painful to move, I think about things like this. [/quote]
I know this is P-X advice thread, but who performs maxes without taking precautions? Prof, is clearly about building muscle which may require gaining strength but is different then trying to set new maximum weight PR’s eveyr week.
Unless you suspect you can lift way more than the weight you perform you should always take every precaution when lifting. Powerlifters use suits and all kinds of spotters when they lift, besides using their previous 8 weeks training as precautions.
Prof- seeing as how you want to avoid injuries and exercises that pose greater risk.
Do you perform leg extensions?
I’d like to add them for quad development, but I can’t bring myself to do them considering the amount of torque put on the knee that shouldn’t be there.
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Prof- seeing as how you want to avoid injuries and exercises that pose greater risk.
Do you perform leg extensions?
I’d like to add them for quad development, but I can’t bring myself to do them considering the amount of torque put on the knee that shouldn’t be there.[/quote]
One of my friends in the military was an orthopedic surgeon. His advice was to raise the angle of the extension so that when you are in the negative portion of the movement, your legs never bend completely beyond a 90 degree angle. I have done that since and have had no problems.
Curious. How come < 90 degrees negative is considered dangerous (for lack of a better term) for leg extensions (in this case), but encouraged (by some) for squats (ie OK to go ATG).
Is it a function of the way the quads/knees are being loaded with weight, or are the movements different enough that you can’t compare them in this context?
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Curious. How come < 90 degrees negative is considered dangerous leg extensions (in this case), but encouraged (by some) for squats (ie OK to go ATG).
Is it a function of the way the quads/knees are being loaded with weight, or are the movements different enough that you can’t compare them in this context?[/quote]
Good question.
I’ve had a few large and very experienced (over 10 years) guys tell me that ATG squats are worse for the knees.
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
IgneLudo wrote:
Yeah I noticed you said you don’t do deadlifts before, but I was wondering if you had any close calls with back tweaks or something. I was lifting yesterday doing rack pulls and when I went to lift what would have been a new PR, i felt a burst of pain in my lower right back and had to stop. Pretty soon it seized up and when I went to see the PT in the building (it was a university gym) she said that I had tweaked my quadratus lumborum. In any case, I did this about 2 years ago while squatting what was my PR, (and due to that and my torn acl, is still my PR).
I was wondering if perhaps I should just wear a weight belt when training max lifts for these exercises or what. Granted, none of this was super heavy (535 for rack pulls and 405 for my squat) but now that my back is tweaked and its painful to move, I think about things like this.
I know this is P-X advice thread, but who performs maxes without taking precautions? Prof, is clearly about building muscle which may require gaining strength but is different then trying to set new maximum weight PR’s eveyr week.
Unless you suspect you can lift way more than the weight you perform you should always take every precaution when lifting. Powerlifters use suits and all kinds of spotters when they lift, besides using their previous 8 weeks training as precautions.[/quote]
I had spotters and was in a power rack when I was doing the rack pulls. The back strain is simply a muscle strain from extraordinary stress placed on the muscle.
I have a few theories about why this occurred, the foremost among them being an imbalance in back musculature from subconscious compensation while deadlifting the last six months as my acl was doing rehab work. Are you suggesting that powerlifters are always at fault when they sustain an injury?
I had no idea that my back was going to get hurt as I stepped up to the bar; I had just pulled something only 20 lbs lighter on the last set. As it happens, I had no warning about my acl either. I just rolled my ankle while playing basketball and it took my knee with it.
Prof X. I can understand your claim that you dont get injured because you are knowledgeable and listen to your body, but I think that a better explanation is that you focus only on building more muscle. I gather that you do not often attempt 1 rep max lifts. Are you going to tell me that injury is completely avoidable doing them?
[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
Prof X. I can understand your claim that you dont get injured because you are knowledgeable and listen to your body, but I think that a better explanation is that you focus only on building more muscle. I gather that you do not often attempt 1 rep max lifts. Are you going to tell me that injury is completely avoidable doing them? [/quote]
I’m sorry, but where did I write that injuries can be “completely avoidable”? I EVEN WROTE ABOUT MY OWN INJURY so how does what you wrote make any sense?
I was into powerlifting for about two years. How about you stop assuming that bodybuilders don’t care about strength. How do you think those big muscles are built?
I could care less about one rep maxes, but it isn’t like my 3 rep max is a walk in the park.
One injury that you got from doing something you knew was stupid is still a pretty good track record. What I wrote makes perfect sense when you look at the huge number of posts with old lifters complaining about their back/knee/shoulder/arm/groin/toe problems.
You wrote that your own injury was just a mistake you made in your own misguided braggadocio. I didn’t say that you NEVER attempted 1 rep max lifts, I only said that you no longer do. Is this false? I didn’t even say that you said injuries were “completely avoidable”.
I just asked if that was what you were going to tell me. Apparently that’s not what you were going to tell me; you even hint that you have extensive experience powerlifting and know about injuries, if not from yourself, then from others.
Do you still attribute your lack of injury during your powerlifting phase to your knowledge and safety precautions? Do you think most powerlifters go years without injury? Or are most powerlifters just not as in tune with their body / ignorant?
Are you denying the explanatory power of my explanation for why you haven’t been seriously injured in your long lifting career? You say yourself that you don’t bench press anymore, preferring the HS machine, and don’t deadlift anymore.
I was simply wondering if you had had some minor shoulder/back/whatever problems from your earlier days and now saw the light of longevity as your guiding philosophy.
[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
One injury that you got from doing something you knew was stupid is still a pretty good track record. What I wrote makes perfect sense when you look at the huge number of posts with old lifters complaining about their back/knee/shoulder/arm/groin/toe problems.
You wrote that your own injury was just a mistake you made in your own misguided braggadocio. I didn’t say that you NEVER attempted 1 rep max lifts, I only said that you no longer do. Is this false? I didn’t even say that you said injuries were “completely avoidable”.
I just asked if that was what you were going to tell me. Apparently that’s not what you were going to tell me; you even hint that you have extensive experience powerlifting and know about injuries, if not from yourself, then from others.
Do you still attribute your lack of injury during your powerlifting phase to your knowledge and safety precautions? Do you think most powerlifters go years without injury? Or are most powerlifters just not as in tune with their body / ignorant?
Are you denying the explanatory power of my explanation for why you haven’t been seriously injured in your long lifting career? You say yourself that you don’t bench press anymore, preferring the HS machine, and don’t deadlift anymore.
I was simply wondering if you had had some minor shoulder/back/whatever problems from your earlier days and now saw the light of longevity as your guiding philosophy.
[/quote]
You are unaware of the many bodybuilders with torn triceps, quadriceps and pectorals?
Your mistake is in assuming that I avoided injury by training “softer” than a powerlifter.
Did you see the word “mistake”?
So you don’t train softer? How would you describe the difference?
[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
So you don’t train softer? How would you describe the difference?[/quote]
Do people seriously think that bodybuilders get huge by training “soft”?
I think you may be confusing “intensity” for
“hardness”. I don’t think bodybuilders get huge by training without intensity and dedication, but I can see how they might get huge doing exercises that are less compound and easier on the joints.
EDIT*
Or stay huge doing that. And if that’s not soft I don’t know what soft is.
Just because he doesn’t care to go for 1RMs doesn’t mean that he doesn’t train heavy as fuck. What don’t you get about that?
[quote]rsg wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Curious. How come < 90 degrees negative is considered dangerous leg extensions (in this case), but encouraged (by some) for squats (ie OK to go ATG).
Is it a function of the way the quads/knees are being loaded with weight, or are the movements different enough that you can’t compare them in this context?
Good question.
I’ve had a few large and very experienced (over 10 years) guys tell me that ATG squats are worse for the knees.[/quote]
I’m definitely not an expert, but I would guess that it has something to do with the difference in hamstring recruitment between the 2 lifts. Squats recruit the hamstring to a high degree (which would be stabilizing the knee from both sides), whereas a leg extension doesn’t active the hamstrings to a significant degree, meaning the knee joint is being stressed mainly from only one side.
A one rep max is the most stress you can put on joints and muscles in a given motion. I’d say that also means for a given level of training (muscle and joint development).
It seems to me that from a purely mechanical standpoint injuries are more likely at a 1rm than a 3rm, regardless of how “heavy as fuck” the individual is lifting: The percentage of stress capacity (and chance of overstressing a muscle) are going to be higher.
This isn’t to say that a heavy 3rm isn’t as intense as a 1rm - the effort you put in is going to be the main factor. Personally I have a harder time getting all the way ‘up’ for “ok, 3 of these” than a do/die 1rm lift.
I also suspect you’re more likely to compromise on form at a 100% 1rm.
Also, going “heavy as fuck” on the HS machine is hardly the same as going “heavy as fuck” on the bench press in terms of blowing something out.
I believe the difference in shear forces on the knee comes from the fact that the leg extension is an open-chain exercise for the legs as opposed to the squat which is closed-chain. But I may be wrong.
[quote]rsg wrote:
SteelyD wrote:
Curious. How come < 90 degrees negative is considered dangerous leg extensions (in this case), but encouraged (by some) for squats (ie OK to go ATG).
Is it a function of the way the quads/knees are being loaded with weight, or are the movements different enough that you can’t compare them in this context?
Good question.
I’ve had a few large and very experienced (over 10 years) guys tell me that ATG squats are worse for the knees.[/quote]
I have absolutely no science to back this up, but I can share my experience with asg squats. I was trying to move my parallel max up from 405. I’d been stuck for a a bit, so I theorized that if I could get to the same weights I was currently using going asg I’d blow my PR outta the water. WRONG. After a bit [maybe 2-3 months] I’d reached my asg goals. I went back to parallel and was way weaker than before and my knees constantly killed me, and still do. My knees haven’t been the same since and it’s been harder to progress. That was over a year ago. Maybe it’s just the way I’m built, but there isn’t enough tea in China to get me goin asg again.