Eric, first I will address your “obvious” comment. What are you in third grade to point something like that out? I didn’t spell check my paragraph, and it dosen’t really matter in the overall picture, so why bring that up?
To the subject at hand: What is it that you want to achieve? I assume you want to build muscle. Now, you’re all pointing out JMB’s theory of a protein/ fat meal before a workout. Lets start at the original question- “6 am, whats a good pro/ fat meal pre- workout? Steak and eggs sit in my stomach.”
Of course it’s gonna sit in your stomach. Fats take longer to digest and sap your strength due to blood concentrating on your stomach. This is like filling your fuel tank with sludge. Unless of course you’re using MCT’s.
Now, besides any opinions like "I happen to get great workouts from fat and protein pre- workout", lets get to the science behind the whole pre- workout spector.
When you wake up after an overnight fast, your muscles need immediate protein to reverse catabolism, optimally a whey hydrolysate with perhaps a slower acting casein to add a longer acting effect (Chris Shugart wrote this as well). Also, with that protein, you’ll want to include some carbohydrate, such as oatmeal or some fruit, to fuel the brain and to prevent the protein you ingest from being oxidized for glucose for the brain. At 6 AM, the first meal, steak and eggs ain’t gonna cut it.
Second, for the real science behind a carb/ protein mix pre- workout, here’s THE study that you will be hearing about for quite a while, and I believe JMB and Chris Shugart and Bill Roberts have cited this study recently as well.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206
Check out “Preparing for the Ultimate Workout” by Charles Poliquin in Issue 81. As for the “obvious” comment, I’ll admit that I did it out of disdain for your ideas, and for that I apologize. Nonetheless, it’s all too common in today’s society that intelligent cannot write adequately. You are obviously very knowledgeable, yet you weaken your argument with “third-grade” spelling mistakes. I hope you don’t think that I’m really losing sleep over this; it’s just a matter of several trainers disagreeing based on what has worked best for them individually.
Timbo, read the research link I posted earlier.
Eric, a simple overlook of one letter was not a big deal. Trust me, I know how to spell, and it happens to everyone.
Eric, Poliquin’s article that appeared in issue 81, very long ago is nothing but poliquins opinion. Much of what is written on T-Mag is opinion mixed with some research. Don’t just follow these guys blindly because they are “experts”. They have a degree or two, and they workout just like us. I also have a degree in exercise physiology and have a heavy background in the nutritional sciences. I’ve learned to overlook the marketing involved in putting together a magazine, where you have to entertain, throw some wacky stuff in, and change things around to keep them fresh. Check the studies.
Ok this topic intrigues me and I have know definitive answers just some info I’ve picked up over the years. I have read the study that Will F gave and it seems to be sound, but like Kelly B has pointed out before to me …there can be discrepancy because the study was performed after a fast. This is a huge factor in Protein sparing and anti catabolic effects. Any kind of nutrition would spare protein better than none,although some are also more optimal than others. Now as for JMB’s reccomendations. I think a surge like drink is important and is on target with fast acting carbs and hydro. whey. I think however his amounts are a bit too high. On average thats 100 grams of glucose a day (pre and post workout). its important to fuel your workout…but at what expense to body comp(unless workouts are significantly better).I think the post workout nutrition is important. I do not agree with the Serrano camp that says BCAA’s only (well FFA’s also). I think the greatest argument in that is that you will only have a glucagon release after exercise with this protocol. The insulin release is low, so none of those precious(expensive also) aminos get stored. They will be too busy getting spent as energy. OK now back to pre workout, the pro/fat meal spaced signifcantly far enough away from training is a good plan because you keep steady insulin/bloodsugar levels). I’m not sold on Surge pre workout during and after seems good to me .JMB states that the carbs wil be shuttled into the muscles during training. i did not see this study and I will look. The only issue i have with carbs during is on body comp.Also if you are on thermo before u workout and sip surge during, your insulin sensetivity is ow and this might not be a good mix. Does anyone here know how carbs during taining affects fat loss, will it have a negative impact? So sorry i went off a bit, I’d love to hear some other thoughts on my opinions and any other info you guys can provide on the subject, Thanks, Mike
Mike, I like what you’re saying, but there is a study that came out recently that has changed many people’s minds about pre- workout carb/ protein intake. It seems that a pre- workout (approx 15 minutes) mix of high glycemic carb and hydrolysate increases protein synthesis and muscle repair even more efficiently than a post- workout only carb/ pro drink. And as Will Ferrell pointed out, body composition has more to do with total intake for the day as opposed to taking in some carbs during the workout. I also remember that there was a study confirming a glycogen sparing effect as a result of sipping a glucose beverage during the workout.
All in all, a protein and fat meal is fine, as long as it's a few hours away from the workout. And being that this guy is waking at 6 am, it seems to me that he's only going to take in one meal before his workout, and I think it would be more beneficial to consume a protein/ carb liquid mixture, to stop catabolism of sleeping, and as well to prepare for the workout.
I also think it depends on how long he plans on waiting after this meal to workout. If he’s talking 60-90 minutes, I definitely think P&F is the way to go, and P&C during and after. However, if he plans on waking up and going directly to the gym, P&C in the car on the way to the gym in addition to P&C during and after would be better. Waiting any longer between carbs and working out (at least in my experience) could easily impair performance, although it depends on the individual’s insulin sensitivity and preferences.
Horatio(nice name btw, nono too sexy), I hear what your saying with the study. I read it. For this specific person , drinking it 5 minutes or so before training would be fine. However , if you just ate a large pro/fat meal…that hyperinsulinec surge will shuttle the fat into ur fat cells for storage. So I think it should be spaced out well. I know that body comp is based on totality of strict eating for the day. The thing is that 100 grams of glucose …is alot of glucose. I do think that 500 split during and after training are ok though. I still would like to hear others opinions and results. thanks guys…Mike
Will, I appreciate your stand and have much respect for your background, and while I can’t speak for others I can honestly say that I truly perform significantly better in the gym by consuming protein and fat with carbs under 10 g. for my pre-workout meal. It doesn’t matter whether the carb source is low-glycemic/II or high glycemic/II, I always get sluggish consuming moderate to high carbs in the meal before my workout. I use the exact meal from Poliquin’s article (eye of round, eggs, fish oil caps) and I will NEVER go back to anything else. FWIW the last month I’ve been planning the meals around my workouts as per John Berardi’s recommendations in his last Appetite column, and I think he really came up with something here. I do realize, however, that not all people do better with this approach. For me, it’s ideal.
Big Willy Style! Yeah, baby, no one wants to ruin Miller Time:-) I am familiar with Dr. Wolfe et al’s protein synthesis research and did not mean to mislead anyone in that I was not aware of this or similar studies. In addition, there are studies by Coyle, Costill and other researchers on carbohydrate administration, substrate utilization during exercise, glycogen depletion, etc (done largely with endurance athletes). These are the types of studies I was referring to when I said that one must be careful with the timing and quality of carbohydrate ingested in relation to training. Big Willie Style, I don’t doubt your experience, expertise and intelligence in the field and rather enjoy your comments, so don’t get me wrong.
Mikey M...you made some comments regarding insuling sensitivity and thermos and say that you don't think the carb/protein drink and thermos nor the PF meal and carb/protein drink pre/during training would be a good combo. The cascade of hormonal events that goes on during intense training, I would think, negates the points you make. This is just my thinking and if I'm wrong, I would hope that you or others could steer me in the right direction.
Great topic, guys! Keep it rollin’ (and don’t ruin Miller time, dammit!)
I think what we all need to do is define “pre-workout”, technically my 7am breakfast if pre-workout my 9pm workout. If you eat steak and eggs 5 minutes before your workout, sure it’s going to sit in there (perhaps even revisting you again), but 1-2 hours “pre-workout” most of it should be digested and you shouldn’t have any problems.